Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[LegateFasendil]

I've said that Ulfric is not a true Nord before. And I stand on that statement, even if it's in the middle of a minefield.

Because on the subject of his 'Nordness' Ulfric recognizes that Torygg's father was a true Nord. But not Troygg. So this is good right? Wrong. Because Torygg's father wanted to keep the Empire together. Tiber Septim was a true Nord and as such, we can infer that a true Nord is an Imperialist.

However, I'll be reasonable as I usually am because it's got to be said there is a difference here.

There's a schism is all of this.

There are two types of Nords. Nords of Ysgramor and Nords of Tiber Septim. Type Y Nord is the kind of Nord who isn't into expansion. Type T Nord is the kind who is.

Ulfric is a type Y Nord, after Ysgramor.

Although Torygg's father was a type T Nord, after Tiber Septim.

But isn't it interesting though how the type 'Y's worship Talos and yet hate his Empire... and not just this Empire, it's deeper than that, they hate Imperialism itself. Yet, Tiber Septim became Talos because of the Empire and for no other reason. Interesting.

And I'm afraid that's all you're going to get out of me on this subject. XD

I feel like no one ever talks about the Empire's faults.

Well I don't see how you can say that. You've been talking about the Empire's faults... since shortly after you arrived on this thread.

What it really is, most Stormcloaks don't want to talk about Ulfric's/their faults. Every time we mention something from lore it's shot down as propaganda or some kind of crap like that. It's not all propaganda. There's always two sides to everything and in order to understand, you need to listen to both.

Of course, if you don't care to understand, then there's that as well.

 

[Vatonage]

I've said that Ulfric is not a true Nord before. And I stand on that statement, even if it's in the middle of a minefield.

Because on the subject of his 'Nordness' Ulfric recognizes that Torygg's father was a true Nord. But not Troygg. So this is good right? Wrong. Because Torygg's father wanted to keep the Empire together. Tiber Septim was a true Nord and as such, we can infer that a true Nord is an Imperialist.

However, I'll be reasonable as I usually am because it's got to be said there is a difference here.

There's a schism is all of this.

There are two types of Nords. Nords of Ysgramor and Nords of Tiber Septim. Type Y Nord is the kind of Nord who isn't into expansion. Type T Nord is the kind who is.

Ulfric is a type Y Nord, after Ysgramor.

Although Torygg's father was a type T Nord, after Tiber Septim.

But isn't it interesting though how the type 'Y's worship Talos and yet hate his Empire... and not just this Empire, it's deeper than that, they hate Imperialism itself. Yet, Tiber Septim became Talos because of the Empire and for no other reason. Interesting.

And I'm afraid that's all you're going to get out of me on this subject. XD

I feel like no one ever talks about the Empire's faults.

Well I don't see how you can say that. You've been talking about the Empire's faults... since shortly after you arrived on this thread.

What it really is, most Stormcloaks don't want to talk about Ulfric's/their faults. Every time we mention something from lore it's shot down as propaganda or some kind of crap like that. It's not all propaganda. There's always two sides to everything and in order to understand, you need to listen to both.

Of course, if you don't care to understand, then there's that as well.

The Empire needs a charismatic leader like Ulfric. Ulfric took to the cries of many and rallied them to a cause. True Nord or not, he is capable of calling many to arms after feeling their pain.

 

[Jeremius]

I feel like no one ever talks about the Empire's faults.

Well I don't see how you can say that. You've been talking about the Empire's faults... since shortly after you arrived on this thread.

What it really is, most Stormcloaks don't want to talk about Ulfric's/their faults. Every time we mention something from lore it's shot down as propaganda or some kind of crap like that. It's not all propaganda. There's always two sides to everything and in order to understand, you need to listen to both.

Of course, if you don't care to understand, then there's that as well.

The Empire needs a charismatic leader like Ulfric. Ulfric took to the cries of many and rallied them to a cause. True Nord or not, he is capable of calling many to arms after feeling their pain.

Charisma does not make a true Nord, however. that is a true Imperial. So is Ulfric an Imperial?

 

[LegateFasendil]

Again, not to be too curt with you guys, however everyone wants they freedom. Just because you fight for freedom doesn't make you special. Everyone is oppressed in some way. Nords are oppressive yet b*tch about being oppressed. Imperials are oppressive, yet are patiently waiting for their opportunity to no longer be oppressed.

 

[LegateFasendil]

I feel like no one ever talks about the Empire's faults.

Well I don't see how you can say that. You've been talking about the Empire's faults... since shortly after you arrived on this thread.

What it really is, most Stormcloaks don't want to talk about Ulfric's/their faults. Every time we mention something from lore it's shot down as propaganda or some kind of crap like that. It's not all propaganda. There's always two sides to everything and in order to understand, you need to listen to both.

Of course, if you don't care to understand, then there's that as well.

The Empire needs a charismatic leader like Ulfric. Ulfric took to the cries of many and rallied them to a cause. True Nord or not, he is capable of calling many to arms after feeling their pain.

I think you have a point here. And I'm not messing with you either.

Sooner or later someone is going to have to get the fire started in people's veins to rise up like the Incredible Hulk and just start telling the Thalmor NO!!!

They don't even have to conquer Summerset. Get the Empire in order and just start telling them NO. It'll be a war but big deal, if enough plp + Allies get onboard it'll end in a reasonable amount of time.

Then just keep saying NO. I think Gen Tully would be a perfect for this.

 

[LegateFasendil]

I feel like no one ever talks about the Empire's faults.

Well I don't see how you can say that. You've been talking about the Empire's faults... since shortly after you arrived on this thread.

What it really is, most Stormcloaks don't want to talk about Ulfric's/their faults. Every time we mention something from lore it's shot down as propaganda or some kind of crap like that. It's not all propaganda. There's always two sides to everything and in order to understand, you need to listen to both.

Of course, if you don't care to understand, then there's that as well.

The Empire needs a charismatic leader like Ulfric. Ulfric took to the cries of many and rallied them to a cause. True Nord or not, he is capable of calling many to arms after feeling their pain.

I think you have a point here. And I'm not messing with you either.

Sooner or later someone is going to have to get the fire started in people's veins to rise up like the Incredible Hulk and just start telling the Thalmor NO!!!

They don't even have to conquer Summerset. Get the Empire in order and just start telling them NO. It'll be a war but big deal, if enough plp + Allies get onboard it'll end in a reasonable amount of time.

Then just keep saying NO. I think Gen Tully would be perfect for this.

 

[Vatonage]

Again, not to be too curt with you guys, however everyone wants they freedom. Just because you fight for freedom doesn't make you special. Everyone is oppressed in some way. Nords are oppressive yet b*tch about being oppressed. Imperials are oppressive, yet are patiently waiting for their opportunity to no longer be oppressed.

Nords are more vocal because to them, the Empire gazing at the stars, doing nothing, even though theyre biding their time. Did you expect them to just take it from the Empire and Elves and do NOTHING?

The Nords feel like they need to take it upon themselves to show the Empire they feel tired of Cyrodiil's crap, shoving laws down their throat, and for what?

 

[LegateFasendil]

rt

Again, not to be too curt with you guys, however everyone wants they freedom. Just because you fight for freedom doesn't make you special. Everyone is oppressed in some way. Nords are oppressive yet b*tch about being oppressed. Imperials are oppressive, yet are patiently waiting for their opportunity to no longer be oppressed.

Nords are more vocal because to them, the Empire gazing at the stars, doing nothing, even though theyre biding their time. Did you expect them to just take it from the Empire and Elves and do NOTHING?

The Nords feel like they need to take it upon themselves to show the Empire they feel tired of Cyrodiil's crap, shoving laws down their throat, and for what?

No the Civil War was a logical extension of the WGC. It was coming. Although that fire could have broken out in various ways. No I wouldn't expect the Nords to just keep taking it.

Thing is though... I find it interesting that the Dragonborn has shown up again at this time. And I mean, not just because of the Dragons. It's interesting.

Heh Uriel VII was a DB, so was Malkor Cameran they think. Ok. Emperor is about to retire. We have another certifiable Dragonborn on the job in Skyrim.

So no. This is where we fork... because as long as there is another Dragonborn to sit on the throne... then the Empire is not dead and there is hope. Ulfric's never been about sharing power and I don't really think he's into Talos as much as he says he is. Did you know Emperor Mede wears a Talos Amulet?

The Empire is not dead as long as there are Dragonborn's remaining... heirs of Tiber Septim and heirs to the Imperial throne.

Unless of course you side with Ulfric and the Thalmor kill the Empire.

Think of it like this...

*Sheogorath* right? The Shivering Isles are apparently, in the midst of a Civil War themselves. Similar to the Civil War in Skyrim, each side fights one another because of their DIFFERENCES.

Sheogorath returns and presumably he's able to resolve everyone's beef and his nation is healed. That's what needs to be done with the Empire. We need a leader who can step in an calm everyone down and unify again. Unfort, Ulfric and his crowd are so full of hate, just as well as Titus Mede and his administration have lost their nerve. They must both pay and... it has to end, so a true Emperor worthy of Tiber Septim can ascend to the Imperial throne.

And I personally can't think of anyone better for said job than the Dragonborn.

 

[Vatonage]

rt



No the Civil War was a logical extension of the WGC. It was coming. Although that fire could have broken out in various ways. No I wouldn't expect the Nords to just keep taking it.

Thing is though... I find it interesting that the Dragonborn has shown up again at this time. And I mean, not just because of the Dragons. It's interesting.

Heh Uriel VII was a DB, so was Malkor Cameran they think. Ok. Emperor is about to retire. We have another certifiable Dragonborn on the job in Skyrim.

So no. This is where we fork... because as long as there is another Dragonborn to sit on the throne... then the Empire is not dead and there is hope. Ulfric's never been about sharing power and I don't really think he's into Talos as much as he says he is. Did you know Emperor Mede wears a Talos Amulet?

The Empire is not dead as long as there are Dragonborn's remaining... heirs of Tiber Septim and heirs to the Imperial throne.

Unless of course you side with Ulfric and the Thalmor kill the Empire.

Think of it like this...

*Sheogorath* right? The Shivering Isles are apparently, in the midst of a Civil War themselves. Similar to the Civil War in Skyrim, each side fights one another because of their DIFFERENCES.

Sheogorath returns and presumably he's able to resolve everyone's beef and his nation is healed. That's what needs to be done with the Empire. We need a leader who can step in an calm everyone down and unify again. Unfort, Ulfric and his crowd are so full of hate, there's only one way that has to end. And it has to end.

And I personally can't think of anyone better for said job than the Dragonborn.

Kind of sad how regardless of either side's validity, the Dragonborn could be boneheaded and never step in, ruining either side's chances of running Skyrim United or Independent easily.

Honestly though, if Ulfric won, I think that Ralof should become his 2iC or 3iC because he seems to know that the Imperials and Stormcloaks should just set their differences aside.

Even if Skyrim does break off, going into full war with the Empire wouldn't happen (Ulfric knows this, as when you try to capture solitude with Vitoria's wedding or the Emperor's visit, he won't march on it) so why not cooperate with the Empire? The Stormcloaks want independence, not endless war with their brothers.

Perhaps the initial hate will end once they have their own homeland, and maybe Ulfric will see how the Empire and Skyrim could help each other against the real threat. He doesn't seem to be that big of a fool to wage war against the weakened, yet still formidable Empire. It would undo everything the Stormcloaks have gained. The Elves might be a unifying focus point of hatred from there.

The Nords united with the Dunmer and Argonians during the Akavir invasion, forming the Ebonheart Pact, why not help the Empire against the Aldmeri Dominion? You have Independence, and get to fight back against the Elves too. (Unless the Empire considers allyship as integrating into the Empire itself, which ruins that plan)

Just quelling the problem doesn't mean it will never arise again. But a United Skyrim is still better than Civil War. It is up to the Dragonborn to pick a side and then destroy the Elven threat by shouting the Summerset Isles apart. Dovahkiin!

 

[LegateFasendil]

rt



No the Civil War was a logical extension of the WGC. It was coming. Although that fire could have broken out in various ways. No I wouldn't expect the Nords to just keep taking it.

Thing is though... I find it interesting that the Dragonborn has shown up again at this time. And I mean, not just because of the Dragons. It's interesting.

Heh Uriel VII was a DB, so was Malkor Cameran they think. Ok. Emperor is about to retire. We have another certifiable Dragonborn on the job in Skyrim.

So no. This is where we fork... because as long as there is another Dragonborn to sit on the throne... then the Empire is not dead and there is hope. Ulfric's never been about sharing power and I don't really think he's into Talos as much as he says he is. Did you know Emperor Mede wears a Talos Amulet?

The Empire is not dead as long as there are Dragonborn's remaining... heirs of Tiber Septim and heirs to the Imperial throne.

Unless of course you side with Ulfric and the Thalmor kill the Empire.

Think of it like this...

*Sheogorath* right? The Shivering Isles are apparently, in the midst of a Civil War themselves. Similar to the Civil War in Skyrim, each side fights one another because of their DIFFERENCES.

Sheogorath returns and presumably he's able to resolve everyone's beef and his nation is healed. That's what needs to be done with the Empire. We need a leader who can step in an calm everyone down and unify again. Unfort, Ulfric and his crowd are so full of hate, there's only one way that has to end. And it has to end.

And I personally can't think of anyone better for said job than the Dragonborn.

Kind of sad how regardless of either side's validity, the Dragonborn could be boneheaded and never step in, ruining either side's chances of running Skyrim United or Independent easily.

Honestly though, if Ulfric won, I think that Ralof should become his 2iC or 3iC because he seems to know that the Imperials and Stormcloaks should just set their differences aside.

Even if Skyrim does break off, going into full war with the Empire wouldn't happen (Ulfric knows this, as when you try to capture solitude with Vitoria's wedding or the Emperor's visit, he won't march on it) so why not cooperate with the Empire? The Stormcloaks want independence, not endless war with their brothers.

Perhaps the initial hate will end once they have their own homeland, and maybe Ulfric will see how the Empire and Skyrim could help each other against the real threat. He doesn't seem to be that big of a fool to wage war against the weakened, yet still formidable Empire. It would undo everything the Stormcloaks have gained. The Elves might be a unifying focus point of hatred from there.

The Nords united with the Dunmer and Argonians during the Akavir invasion, forming the Ebonheart Pact, why not help the Empire against the Aldmeri Dominion? You have Independence, and get to fight back against the Elves too. (Unless the Empire considers allyship as integrating into the Empire itself, which ruins that plan)

Just quelling the problem doesn't mean it will never arise again. But a United Skyrim is still better than Civil War. It is up to the Dragonborn to pick a side and then destroy the Elven threat by shouting the Summerset Isles apart. Dovahkiin!

Ok, so basically you hope that if Skyrim leaves everything will sort of end up like with what happened with Hammerfell leaving. I dunno about that one. I do hear what you're saying though.

Hammerfell never really was part of the Empire. I mean... yes and no... it's a looong story. Skyrim is in many ways the heart of the Empire, Cyrodil is still the head and Highrock is a place somewhere in western Tamriel.

The problem we have here is Galmar's testimony at the end... about killing anyone who you meet wearing an Imperial uniform. But then again... Ulfric's rebellion isn't really about Skyrim at all. If it was the Moot could have handled that matter. Ulfric hates the Empire with a passion. Again, unfort, there's a much bigger picture here that has to be considered and the hate will not end with Ulfric winning the Civil War.

It will spread... so that's why the Empire had better not fail... or rather, the Dragonborn better not fail. Hmmm Sheogorath has lots of experience in dealing with these matters... I say they offer the throne to him. Old Sheo would turn that pl*ps around in a New York min.

 

[Vatonage]

Ok, so basically you hope that if Skyrim leaves everything will sort of end up like with what happened with Hammerfell leaving. I dunno about that one. I do hear what you're saying though.

Hammerfell never really was part of the Empire. I mean... yes and no... it's a looong story. Skyrim is in many ways the heart of the Empire, Cyrodil is still the head and Highrock is a place somewhere in western Tamriel.

The problem we have here is Galmar's testimony at the end... about killing anyone who you meet wearing an Imperial uniform. But then again... Ulfric's rebellion isn't really about Skyrim at all. If it was the Moot could have handled that matter. Ulfric hates the Empire with a passion. Again, unfort, there's a much bigger picture here that has to be considered and the hate will not end with Ulfric winning the Civil War.

It will spread... so that's why the Empire had better not fail... or rather, the Dragonborn better not fail. Hmmm Sheogorath has lots of experience in dealing with these matters... I say they offer the throne to him. Old Sheo would turn that pl*ps around in a New York min.

I honestly don't know which would be the best. Each would have its faults and advantages.

The more I think about it, neither would be better than the other. A result would be better than the current state, regardless of the contents of that result. Although I still favor the Stormcloaks, I understand where the Imperial view is coming from. This has been a very informative debate.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Helgen was the 'fair trial'. They're being executed for high treason which is why you have Ralof going "Treason, for fighting for your own people!"

They don't believe they've committed treason, so in their mind "Fair trial" would be charged with something else. The only other example of High Treason in TES lore met with the exact same fate as the Stormcloaks were about to. Summary execution.

Ulfric would have known that, besides being a Jarl, he also served in the Imperial Legion. He'd understand the law.

Thats exactly my point though. He knew if he was executed he would rile up the Nords and get more support overall.

Not to be the post police, but you messed up your quoting.

Yeah, I know. Lol. I'm a little to the forums, Hell I'm new to all forums in general

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Again, not to be too curt with you guys, however everyone wants they freedom. Just because you fight for freedom doesn't make you special. Everyone is oppressed in some way. Nords are oppressive yet b*tch about being oppressed. Imperials are oppressive, yet are patiently waiting for their opportunity to no longer be oppressed.

Nords are more vocal because to them, the Empire gazing at the stars, doing nothing, even though theyre biding their time. Did you expect them to just take it from the Empire and Elves and do NOTHING?

The Nords feel like they need to take it upon themselves to show the Empire they feel tired of Cyrodiil's crap, shoving laws down their throat, and for what?

Thats how we Nords do things baby! Can't take that away from us.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I feel like no one ever talks about the Empire's faults.

That is up to the Stormcloak supporters to address those faults. It isn't like the Empire is without faults, and as a Stormcloak you actually have the easier task. Since you have five games, two novels and a crap load of in-game books to collect those faults.

Nords are more vocal because to them, the Empire gazing at the stars, doing nothing, even though theyre biding their time. Did you expect them to just take it from the Empire and Elves and do NOTHING?

The Nords feel like they need to take it upon themselves to show the Empire they feel tired of Cyrodiil's crap, shoving laws down their throat, and for what?

I think it is about time the Nords got a slap from the Empire. The Nords didn't mind the Empire when they could attack Hammerfell and High Rock stealing land, they didn't mind the Empire when they could annex several fiefdoms belonging to the Emperor and they certainly didn't mind the Empire when they could attack a couple of Imperial forts and House Redoran during the Oblivion Crisis.

Cyrodiil put up with Skyrim's crap, the other provinces also had to deal with Skyrim's crap. But the first time in Skyrim's history they have to take it on the chin for the Empire temporarily...

They're all up in arms, apparently tired of the Empire and feel unloved. What happened to the Nords who so much valued honor and loyalty. Is their allegiance so fickle, their talk of loyalty so hollow?

Take a page out of Alvor's book: "Skyrim has always been part of the Empire. That doesn't mean I support everything the Empire's been doing lately, but Nords have never been fair-weather friends."

 

[Ivory]

What I love is how Tiber Septim is said to have been a Breton, and Talos the merging of three souls. A Breton, Imperial and Atmoran/Nord. I really should look further into that.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Empire needs a charismatic leader like Ulfric. Ulfric took to the cries of many and rallied them to a cause. True Nord or not, he is capable of calling many to arms after feeling their pain.

Charisma doesn't make a ruler. The Empire needs another Titus Mede, now he was an Emperor.

 

[Raijin]

I've trimmed some of the responses because it was turning into a book.

They're not stopping his actions, which is the point I'm making. So either they accept them or ignore them either way it isn't good. He may not officially represent the Stormcloaks, but in his mind he does. He's acting on their behalf in the streets like a thug, made worse by the fact he has an ex Stormcloak soldier with him.

Why should they stop him ? He's not doing anything wrong. The Stormcloaks probably see Rolff as being a loyal citizen of Windhelm cracking down on Imperial spies during crucial times.
What Rolff and his ex Stormcloak friend are doing is completely normal during time of war, and they have a legitimate concern about the Dunmers being an imperial spies, especially considering the fact that theirs an imperial legion officer uniform resting inside the second story of the Dunmers tavern. How can they explain the uniform without being affiliate with the Imperials?

He wasn't investigating until you came along. He gave you authority to do their job, as a Steward he'll always be in service to the Jarl and he is supposed to do official work. But he says "Nothing official" he's more used for war conversation than Hold duties.

Every hold runs differently and if you want to call him incompetent for not dealing with the 3 murders, then so be it, but you also must call the Steward from Solitude incompetent as well. In fact his incompetence almost risk the lives of an country, including putting the Empire at jeopardy.
“You mean the Dragon Bridge issue? I'll be honest with you, I was planning to let that go. Varnius is a bit jumpy at the best of times.”
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00026c4a
“There have been reports of weird happenings near Wolfskull Cave. Travelers disappearing, odd lights. I suspect wild animals or perhaps bandits. I don't think it's worth our time with the war going on, but if you want to clear out the cave, I'll make sure you're repaid for your work.”
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00026c49
“The cave has a bad history. Long ago, Potema the Wolf Queen used it for necromantic rituals. That's where it got the name. That was over 500 years ago. Nothing much down there now - but everyone's always convinced the cave is haunted.”
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x0002c189
“Any resident of Solitude can tell you, she was the deadliest person ever to come out of Skyrim. Queen of Solitude, granddaughter of Emperor Uriel Septim II, five hundred years ago. Her fight for succession nearly tore the empire apart. After twenty years of fighting, she had raised armies of the dead, led by vampire generals. If she returns to power, nobody could stop her.”
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000284ef

Does that mean Ulfric is corrupt because Free-Winter has power? He's an Imperial supporter and undermines Ulfric on the streets. By your definition that makes Ulfric corrupt... No it doesn't work like that Raijin.
The Silver-Bloods are powerful because they own the mine and use thugs to extort the shop owners into paying them. How is it greedy to have a powerful clan in your Hold? Every Jarl must be corrupt because there are powerful citizens in the Holds...
There is nothing that even shows Igmund is corrupt. The Silver-Bloods also can't support Ulfric financially until they become Jarl. The Forsworn also control many routes, so logically the unaffected roads would be Imperial controlled.

You've completely lost me. What does the corruption of Igmund have to do with Free-Winter? What does he have to do with the corruption of Markarth? You've got me confused. What point are you trying to make by bringing an unrelated character involved in a Markarth related debate? I don't understand where you're coming from.
The fact to the matter is Imund is the most corrupted Jarl who allows the Silver-Bloods to do what they do because he gets showered with coin that comes from the mine that is suppose to be owned by the city, not by an individual.

Helgen was the 'fair trial'. They're being executed for high treason which is why you have Ralof going "Treason, for fighting for your own people!"


They don't believe they've committed treason, so in their mind "Fair trial" would be charged with something else. The only other example of High Treason in TES lore met with the exact same fate as the Stormcloaks were about to. Summary execution.


Ulfric would have known that, besides being a Jarl, he also served in the Imperial Legion. He'd understand the law.

Where do you get the notion that Helgen was considered a form of court? General Tullius didn't even let Ulfric speak, nor allowed him to summon the witnesses that he said he had. Tullius was determine to execute him without a fair trial. He was going to silent him so that the truth about the Empire can parish when Ulfric dies.

You call Tullius a warmonger, because what? The Legion stepped in to protect the thousands of citizens that want to remain part of the Empire?

Ulfric isn't snatching up minor offenders and putting them on the execution block. Yes I still stand by what I said about Tullius. He is and will always be a warmonger in my book, and from what I've gathered up in the game, And quit labeling the Legon as some hero who step in to save the day. Rthat's simply not true.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Why should they stop him ? He's not doing anything wrong. The Stormcloaks probably see Rolff as being a loyal citizen of Windhelm cracking down on Imperial spies during crucial times.
What Rolff and his ex Stormcloak friend are doing is completely normal during time of war, and they have a legitimate concern about the Dunmers being an imperial spies, especially considering the fact that theirs an imperial legion officer uniform resting inside the second story of the Dunmers tavern. How can they explain the uniform without being affiliate with the Imperials?

He's not doing anything wrong? So planning to kidnap citizens and put them to torture is normal and being loyal to Windhelm? Now you're dancing on a thin edge in becoming like the Thalmor.

What legitimate concern do they have? Imperial Legion armor being in their tavern? Firstly it isn't Officer armor, but standard Legionnaire gear. Secondly, Imperial armor could mean many things... The last being Imperial spies.

The Empire mass produces those armor pieces. I sometimes find them in bandit camps, are the Bandits working for us too? Hell I've even found them on Giants, guess they're part of our new primitive task force.

Every hold runs differently and if you want to call him incompetent for not dealing with the 3 murders, then so be it, but you also must call the Steward from Solitude incompetent as well. In fact his incompetence almost risk the lives of an country, including putting the Empire at jeopardy.

Do you not see a difference those two situations. Windhelm had three bodies, actual evidence in front of them, bit of basic detective work.

Falk had a second hand report of lights from a cave, no evidence presented to them. Villagers are known to be very superstitious, especially in Skyrim...

And when he did find out about Potema he was very concerned.

You've completely lost me. What does the corruption of Igmund have to do with Free-Winter? What does he have to do with the corruption of Markarth? You've got me confused. What point are you trying to make by bringing an unrelated character involved in a Markarth related debate? I don't understand where you're coming from.

The fact to the matter is Imund is the most corrupted Jarl who allows the Silver-Bloods to do what they do because he gets showered with coin that comes from the mine that is suppose to be owned by the city, not by an individual.

You're saying Igmund is corrupt because he has powerful people like the Silver-Bloods in his city. Free-Winter is powerful in Windhelm, there are powerful people in every city.

I'm sorry, where does it say the mine is supposed to be owned by the city? The Silver-Bloods own the Treasury House, they're the god damn bank Raijin...

Where do you get the notion that Helgen was considered a form of court? General Tullius didn't even let Ulfric speak, nor allowed him to summon the witnesses that he said he had. Tullius was determine to execute him without a fair trial. He was going to silent him so that the truth about the Empire can parish when Ulfric dies.

Do you understand what Summary Execution means? Raijin, there is no court of law for this crime. Let Ulfric speak, summon witnesses? For the love of god man, what the hell for?

Ulfric is being executed for High Treason. That means for killing High King Torygg. Is Ulfric denying he killed Torygg? Are there witnesses who'll say it was someone else?

Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death. - High Treason, Imperial Law.

Do you see a "Except for duels" in that law?

Ulfric isn't snatching up minor offenders and putting them on the execution block. Yes I still stand by what I said about Tullius. He is and will always be a warmonger in my book, and from what I've gathered up in the game, And quit labeling the Legon as some hero who step in to save the day. Rthat's simply not true.

What minor offenders? Are you talking about Helgen? That was a misunderstanding, and it was a mistake which the Legion admits. These things happen in war time, both the Empire and Stormcloaks kill innocents by accident. That is established.

 

[Jeremius]

Where do you get the notion that Helgen was considered a form of court? General Tullius didn't even let Ulfric speak, nor allowed him to summon the witnesses that he said he had. Tullius was determine to execute him without a fair trial. He was going to silent him so that the truth about the Empire can parish when Ulfric dies.

Do you understand what Summary Execution means? Raijin, there is no court of law for this crime. Let Ulfric speak, summon witnesses? For the love of god man, what the hell for?

Ulfric is being executed for High Treason. That means for killing High King Torygg. Is Ulfric denying he killed Torygg? Are there witnesses who'll say it was someone else?

Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death. - High Treason, Imperial Law.

Do you see a "Except for duels" in that law?

I think the Stormcloaks are blinded by Morrowind Duels, which are not the same at all, and applying that stuff to the "ancient traditions." but then again, wouldn't those duels be considered treason against those specific factions because of the actual law?

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

The Empire needs a charismatic leader like Ulfric. Ulfric took to the cries of many and rallied them to a cause. True Nord or not, he is capable of calling many to arms after feeling their pain.

Charisma doesn't make a ruler. The Empire needs another Titus Mede, now he was an Emperor.

What he means is the need a man of the people, like Ulfric. Someone who's able to round up support through his anger and words. Really the Empire should hire him for recruitment, as long as they pledge to leave Skyrim.