Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Mr1cammando]

They are not even in Windhelm, in fact, and last time I checked it was mostly cos of the dunmers, to prevent hostilities between them. And lets not forget about their love of Skooma..

Lets take a look at the racial scene of Windhelm.

• Ulfric forces the Argonians to live outside of the city, for no good reason.
• The Argonians get poor wages and do the labor of the city with the dark elves.
• The locals believe that the argys and dunmers are lower races, and treat them as such. Proof is that the shatter-shields pay the argonians poorly, because "Argonian work is not as valuable and nord work".

If Rolff, the one at the gate, harassing the elf woman, did hate them only because they aren't helping, he would have to hate Brunwulf, who on your first meeting, asks you if you believe whether or not you think Skyrim is for the nords. If you answer no, he tells you that he agrees and to keep away from the racist folk.
The Dark Elves live in that slum because they can't live anywhere else. If they had the resorces to pack up and leave, they would have. However, the city keeps them in poverty by paying them only enough for food and shelter. The fact of the matter is that no matter how you slice it, it is the nords that are driving the wedge of prejudice and racism.
And it's the Argonian in Riften with the Skooma problem. Which could happen to anyone, making that point full of ignorance. If you are implying that argonians are "shifty", you can take the virtual prejudice elsewhere.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

I find it odd how the haters of Ulfric are quick to label Ulfric as being a racist when he never once said anything derogatory against 'em. He never said anything racial towards the Dark elves.

I tell you what. I make a deal with anyone who can provide me with an actual video or audio (Provide me with the name of the audio file so I can search for it myself), no editorial version, of Ulfric making a radical suggestion towards the dark elves, I would not only change my avatar photo to something pro Empire/Imperial (General Tullius) but I will also change my signature to something pro empire... perhaps something like this "Upon my honor I do swear undying loyalty to the Emperor, Titus Mede II, and unwavering obedience to the officers of his great Empire. May those above judge me, and those below take me, if I fail in my duty. Long live the Emperor! Long live the Empire!" for a month.

I give full permission, of course, to Rayven to change my settings if I don't heed to the deal.

Come on imperial supporters force me to litter up my signature and avatar with pro imperial/empire stuffs. Prove to me that Ulfric stormcloak is a racist base on actual facts. Leave the opinion trash to your self.

If anyone mentions the living conditions of the gray quarters is disqualified, since residents are suppose to maintain their living area, which the dark elves failed to do.

And we care about this contest why exactly? The point we are making is that actions generally speak louder then words. And Ulfric's actions are very loud about how he feels about Non-Nords. I think even a blind man with a brain could see Ulfric for what he is. Seriously, hop off Ulfric's nutsack, Raijin. It's getting old.

 

[Ivory]

I'm gone for awhile and look at the mess! Still, Doctor is right. Actions have always been louder than words. Ulfric is basically doing this, figuratively.

Man 1 says to Man 2, "Hey! Let's be friends!" Man 1 Stabs man 2 in chest a second later.

 

[Mr1cammando]

I'm gone for awhile and look at the mess! Still, Doctor is right. Actions have always been louder than words. Ulfric is basically doing this, figuratively.

Man 1 says to Man 2, "Hey! Let's be friends!" Man 1 Stabs man 2 in chest a second later.

Not really.

Man 1: "Our homeland blew the fl*ff up, and we stay?"

King: "Sure whatever"

Man 2 kills the king.

Man 2: "Get out!

Man 1: "We can't! We don't have the resources!"

Man 2: "Well fl*ff you too then."

Man 1: "Huh.. wah? We did nothing wrong."

Man 2: "fl*ff you"

 

[Janus3003]

Why are they allowed in the city at all if Ulfric was such a racist, you'd think he would drive anyone, who isn't a nord, out of the city in days..

Didn't realize that expulsing people from your region was the qualification for being a racist. I guess separate water fountains for whites and "colors" in the US wasn't so racist after all!

 

[Dagmar]

I find it odd how the haters of Ulfric are quick to label Ulfric as being a racist when he never once said anything derogatory against 'em. He never said anything racial towards the Dark elves.

Observing the fact that Ulfric is a racist doesn't require you to be a "hater". It only requires you to have ears, eyes and common sense. Racism is defined by act as much (and more) than it is by words. Windhelm has a policy that prohibits the Dunmer from living anywhere within the city except for the Grey Quarter. In other words it has a segregation policy in place for the Dunmer, and, in case it needs to be spelled out for you, segregation is a form of institutionalized racism. As Jarl of the Eastmarch, Ulfric is responsible for maintaining and enforcing this form of institutionalized racism.

This has all been explained to you many times before. Seriously, what don't you get about this? Are you like Leonard Shelby from Memento, totally incapable of retaining any memories or accepting and processing information when it conflicts with what you want to believe?

 

[nogz]

Docta Corvina

Brunwulf for once. Haven't you spoke with him in the market? He is "helping them", whatever that means, pretty sure he isn't teaching them why people might just have a lil bit of problem with them not taking a side in the war. How are they leeching? Are you for real??? They live there as a first. And I don't think they are paying for rent or owning any property, not the way there are going about assimilating. NOT their fight? Fine, lets go along with this logic. This is NOT their city. This is NOT their country. There is NOTHING the nords own them. So tell me again why should the nords be not prejudice towards them? Tell me again, why should they even give them homes and jobs and food? Tell me again how racist Ulfric is.. would love to hear that faulty logic again..

Yes, the elf woman is not a dunmer, so what? If Ulfric and his boys were such a racists you'd think everyone who isn't a nord wouldn't be doing well at all, if they would be living there in the first place but w/e. She has connections, and friends.. ugh.. yeah.. when you assimilate thats kinda what happens.. you mean to tell me if the nords were such a racists that would even be possible.. please..

I played the Imperial side, whats your point? One of the first things you learn when in Windhlem is that there is a murderer and nothing has been done, while this may be just for the sake of having this quest it was also there to clearly show that in times of war your resources are spread thin. When Brunwulf becomes a Jarl it's already over, it is quite easy to say everybody will be doing Ok from now on when there is no war to be fought.. And if the Dragonborn being let to join Ulfric is just for roleplaying, and so on, you'd think the NPCs would be as if they really wanted the show how much of a racist Ulfric is.. when you want someone to leave you don't subtly tell them, you make them, simple as that. If anything they showed them that not picking a side is exactly why they are treated the way they are.

 

[Janus3003]

when you want someone to leave you don't subtly tell them, you make them, simple as that.

Ever heard of "passive aggression?"

 

[nogz]

Janus3003

That's when you don't hold the power, I fail to see how this is even relevant in this case..

 

[Mr1cammando]

Hey, those damn blacks invaded my country. We should hate on them, force them out, tell them to go home, dispite that there homes are destroyed and treat them like second class citizens!

The races of Skyrim only want to be treated fairly, and the nords, as your post suggests, do not have the god damned courtesy to treat them like equal beings.

At this point, you don't even seem to know what your fighting for. You said that the nords and Ulfric were right in what they did. Now, you tell us that STRAIGHT UP that their prejudice is justified? That defies that damn definition. Your talking in circles, and we are the brakes you disconnected.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

Docta Corvina

Brunwulf for once. Haven't you spoke with him in the market? He is "helping them", whatever that means, pretty sure he isn't teaching them why people might just have a lil bit of problem with them not taking a side in the war. How are they leeching? Are you for real??? They live there as a first. And I don't think they are paying for rent or owning any property, not the way there are going about assimilating. NOT their fight? Fine, lets go along with this logic. This is NOT their city. This is NOT their country. There is NOTHING the nords own them. So tell me again why should the nords be not prejudice towards them? Tell me again, why should they even give them homes and jobs and food? Tell me again how racist Ulfric is.. would love to hear that faulty logic again..

Yes, the elf woman is not a dunmer, so what? If Ulfric and his boys were such a racists you'd think everyone who isn't a nord wouldn't be doing well at all, if they would be living there in the first place but w/e. She has connections, and friends.. ugh.. yeah.. when you assimilate thats kinda what happens.. you mean to tell me if the nords were such a racists that would even be possible.. please..

I played the Imperial side, whats your point? One of the first things you learn when in Windhlem is that there is a murderer and nothing has been done, while this may be just for the sake of having this quest it was also there to clearly show that in times of war your resources are spread thin. When Brunwulf becomes a Jarl it's already over, it is quite easy to say everybody will be doing Ok from now on when there is no war to be fought.. And if the Dragonborn being let to join Ulfric is just for roleplaying, and so on, you'd think the NPCs would be as if they really wanted the show how much of a racist Ulfric is.. when you want someone to leave you don't subtly tell them, you make them, simple as that. If anything they showed them that not picking a side is exactly why they are treated the way they are.

 

[nogz]

Mr1cammando

Lmao, as if the Dominion wants for every race to be treated equally.. as if the argoninans are not kicking the dunmers butt, as if the dunmer in Skyrim had any power they wouldn't have done exactly the same.. if you haven't noticed they only care about themselves.. so yeah, most if not all of the races are pretty much "racists" by our standards.

And why should the nords care that Morrowind got messed up? Was it their fault or something?

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

Mr1cammando

Lmao, as if the Dominion wants for every race to be treated equally.. as if the argoninans are not kicking the dunmers butt, as if the dunmer in Skyrime had any power they wouldn't have done exactly the same.. if you haven't noticed they only care about themselves.. so yeah, most if not all of the races are pretty much "racists" by our standards.

And why should the nords care that Morrowind got messed up? Was it their fault or something?

In the game we know as Oblivion there was hardly any racism of this magnitude, and that was set 200 year prior. So no, not all the races are 'racist' by our standards.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

"Hey, they aren't supporting our cause which has no place for anyone that isn't a Nord."

"What should we do about it?"

"Discriminate them racially, force them into slums and poverty and let them live a menial existence of course."

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[nogz]

Their cause is to free Skyrim from the puppet Empire and take the fight to the Dominion who are the real racists in this fantasy world. So yeah, everyone can join and fight for this, not a problem.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Docta Corvina

Brunwulf for once. Haven't you spoke with him in the market? He is "helping them", whatever that means, pretty sure he isn't teaching them why people might just have a lil bit of problem with them not taking a side in the war. How are they leeching? Are you for real??? They live there as a first. And I don't think they are paying for rent or owning any property, not the way there are going about assimilating. NOT their fight? Fine, lets go along with this logic. This is NOT their city. This is NOT their country. There is NOTHING the nords own them. So tell me again why should the nords be not prejudice towards them? Tell me again, why should they even give them homes and jobs and food? Tell me again how racist Ulfric is.. would love to hear that faulty logic again..

Brunwulf is "helping" them, meaning he has sympathy for their plight and openly supports their cause. Does he give them money? Give them resources out of his own pocket? I don't recall explicit dialogue that says as much, but if he is, I certainly won't begrudge him that choice. I'd be curious to hear such dialogue, rather than vague assumptions of what he's doing behind the scenes based on his personal views about the war and the situation at large. When I've spoken to him in the market, he expresses his dismay about the status quo and his displeasure about Ulfric's activities and apathy. I do not recall one thing about how he's set up a welfare-dispensation station for the Dunmer. If it exists, please tell me where to find it. I'm quite curious.

Once again, WHEN did I say they are entitled by default to get something for nothing, as you put it? You keep repeating that line which is funny since I have never said anything of the sort. Please dispute things I have actually said rather than things you seem to assume I have said.

In that same vein, you honestly are assuming that the Dark Elves are effectively squatters in Windhelm, as they, according to you, do not own or pay for the homes they inhabit? If that were the case, you don't think that that would be all the impetus Ulfric needed to formally kick them out, all legal-like? He just tolerates squatters? Please...

Yes, the elf woman is not a dunmer, so what? If Ulfric and his boys were such a racists you'd think everyone who isn't a nord wouldn't be doing well at all, if they would be living there in the first place but w/e. She has connections, and friends.. ugh.. yeah.. when you assimilate thats kinda what happens.. you mean to tell me if the nords were such a racists that would even be possible.. please..

Yeah, if you haven't noticed, connections are vital to making the best out of a less than ideal situation. In response to the question about being treated as badly as the Dunmer:

"It was difficult at first. The Nords of this city are, at best, suspicious of outsiders. But in time I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore. The Dunmer are too proud and naive to see the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum."

How do we know that she's not working for Ulfric's war machine in some fashion? Or supporting the Stormcloaks behind the scenes? Those could well be the "friends" she's referencing. To borrow a word, a racist/prejudiced individual can well "tolerate" someone they despise for whatever gain and advantage it may bring them. To believe otherwise is highly naive. Reading between the lines, one could interpret it as her saying that the Dunmer refuse to swallow the BS. And that's why they won't get anywhere. Tell me again how genuinely optimistic the Dunmer should be about their lives in Windhelm.

I played the Imperial side, whats your point? One of the first things you learn when in Windhlem is that here is a murderer and nothing has been done, while this may be just for the sake of having this quest it was also there to clearly show that in times of war your resources are spread thin. When Brunwulf becomes a Jarl it's already over, it is quite easy to say everybody will be doing Ok from now on when there is no war to be fought.. And if the Dragonborn being let to join Ulfric is just for roleplaying, and so on, you'd think the NPC would be as if they really wanted the show how much of a racist Ulfric is.. when you want someone to leave you don't subtly tell them, you make them, simple as that. If anything they showed them that not picking a side is exactly why they are treated the way they are.

Windhelm is a mess - thanks for reiterating my point. Clearly, as even the locals who may be inclined to support Ulfric say, there is a killer on the loose with no one really giving a damn because of the war. Not really a check in Ulfric's positive column. What this has to do with Brunwulf, I fail to see. Brunwulf, as you pointed it out, was in after the murders started to occur. So I do not see how this is relevant to the discussion of the improvement of racial disparities and inequities.

As Dagmar pointed out earlier, the bleak situation of the Dunmer didn't start with current events. And likewise, it won't vanish overnight, whether Brunwulf takes power or if Ulfric retains his.

 

[Dagmar]

Brunwulf for once. Haven't you spoke with him in the market? He is "helping them", whatever that means.

If you'd bothered to listen you'd know the help is to appeal to Ulfric to improve conditions in the Grey Quarter.

They live there as a first.

Right because living in a city constitutes leeching. Why...the whole city is filled with nothing but leeches! Horrible people, just just breathing and eating and working and sleeping in the city...leeches.....LEECHES! \o/

And I don't think they are paying for rent or owning any property.

Based on what? Your innermost thoughts and fantasies? There is nothing in the game that indicates that the Dunmer didn't have to pay for their houses. This is simply a fabrication of your mind. You can think that Ulric and Galmar like to run around the Palace of Kings buckass naked in the wee hours of the morning too. You would have just as much substantiation from the game content that it happens as you do that the Dunmer haven't paid for their residence same as any other person in Windhelm.

Yes, the elf woman is not a dunmer, so what?

Only the Dunmer are subject to the segregation policy of Windhelm. Niranye's house is outside of the Grey Quarter. She also doesn't assimilate with the Nords. She spends her nights hanging out with the Dunmer at the New Gnisis Cornerclub. So much for that theory.

You couldn't have picked a worse example than Niranye. She is an exceptional NPC in Windhelm, above all others be they Nord, Altmer, Dunmer or any other race. She is extremely resourceful with an uncanny ability to procure things for the citizens of Windhelm that no one else can, probably through questionable, if not outright illegal means. In that sense she is unique as she provides a service to the citizens of Windhelm that can't be duplicated by anyone else. Holding her out as something that the Dunmer should aspire to is pointless because what she does can't be duplicated by most people in Skyrim no matter how hard they work, regardless of their race.

Nurelion would have been a better example but it wouldn't have mattered because the prejudice that the Nords harbor to the Dunmer is distinct from the general xenophobia they feel towards Mer and Beast races so it's relevant when you use an example of someone who isn't a Dunmer even if you aren't aware of the fact.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

Their cause is to free Skyrim from the puppet Empire and take the fight to the Dominion who are the real racists in this fantasy world. So yeah, everyone can join and fight for this, not a problem.

Don't even deny the fact that Ulfric values Nords over any other race, and the idea an unorganized militia could take on a fighting force which crippled an empire is appalling.

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[Raijin]

Observing the fact that Ulfric is a racist doesn't require you to be a "hater". It only requires you to have ears, eyes and common sense. Racism is defined by act as much (and more) than it is by words. Windhelm has a policy that prohibits the Dunmer from living anywhere within the city except for the Grey Quarter. In other words it has a segregation policy in place for the Dunmer, and, in case it needs to be spelled out for you, segregation is a form of institutionalized racism. As Jarl of the Eastmarch, Ulfric is responsible for maintaining and enforcing this form of institutionalized racism.

Have you heard of rumors? Gossip? People run their mouths like runny diarrhea coming from someones behind. Sure I can “hear” around, but it doesn't mean that it's true. If someone told me that my friend is a racist then I would want to walk up to him, and ask him myself. I would want to get his side of the story first before I pass any judgment base on what I hear.
and thank you for providing even more evidence backing up my claim. Take a look at Aval Atheron accusation. "You must be new around here, or you'd know they don't let my kind live anywhere outside that slum." What about the nanny? What about the bard? Seriously if the dark elves don't like living in Windhelm for fluff sakes MOVE already. I don't know how many times I've said this already. If I lived in an apartment and I don't like my surroundings I would find another place to live. It's just that fricken easy.
and Ambarys Rendar complaint "Well you see where we have to live. This forgotten alley. All the filth from the upper quaters flows downhill, like they say."
I have people throw litter in my yard all the time and you know what I do? I pick it up and throw in the trash can. It's no big deal, really. I don't make a big fuss over it by calling up the mayor of my city, and request that they sent out a cleaning crew.


I will repost my photos

Apparently he has enough resources to move back to morrowind, yet he wants to return living like a king.

If he doesn't care about the nord women being murdered then why should the nords care about the their living conditions?

Am I suppose to feel sorry for the dark elves if they truly have this kind of mentality? Am I suppose to feel sorry for the suppose “ segregation”. Yeah ok

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

The logic behind saying something as ignorant and pigheaded as "The Dunmer deserve racism because one of them don't care about a murdered woman." Is so incomprehensibly backwards I can hardly wrap my mind around it.

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