Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Docta Corvina]

Man, it's one of the many Civil War threads. It's gonna keep going round and round and round again. It's the nature of the beast, lol.

 

[Jeremius]

Man, it's one of the many Civil War threads. It's gonna keep going round and round and round again. It's the nature of the beast, lol.

is it the nature of the beast to beat a dead horse when the participants resort to calling each other insulting names?

 

[Docta Corvina]

is it the nature of the beast to beat a dead horse when the participants resort to calling each other insulting names?

It's the nature of the beast for old arguments to keep popping up and returning to the fore. It's a popular topic, one of many threads for it. It happens. And will likely always happen.

I personally have not called anyone any names, because it's not necessary in order to get a point across. I can't speak for others. But if the recurrence of thematic arguments bothers you so much, maybe ignore the thread for a while? I know I did for a couple weeks for this very reason.

 

[Znowcicle]

i agree with what i said, i am trying to find new topics for this thread, not argue about the dead horse.

It didn't come across that way and besides, it doesn't matter how many times you change the topic the people will still hold their opinions the same way. Perhaps you should present your ideas in a more agreeable way? Just a thought since even I had trouble understanding that you were agreeing with me instead of what I thought you were doing which was separating yourself from the group that wasn't agreeing.

 

[Znowcicle]

I personally have not called anyone any names, because it's unnecessary to get a point across. I can't speak for others. But if the recurrence of thematic arguments bothers you so much, maybe ignore the thread for a while? I know I did for a couple weeks for this very reason.

I haven't either and I highly suggest the last bit if in fact you are so bothered Jeremius. Sometimes it's good to just cool your head and then come back so your head will be clearer. ^-^ Not to say that yours isn't, because I have no idea what's going through yours.

 

[Jeremius]

It didn't come across that way and besides, it doesn't matter how many times you change the topic the people will still hold their opinions the same way. Perhaps you should present your ideas in a more agreeable way? Just a thought since even I had trouble understanding that you were agreeing with me instead of what I thought you were doing which was separating yourself from the group that wasn't agreeing.

I was just trying to get people to move on. sorry if it sounded that way, would you mind coming up with a topic appropriate for this thread to discuss? maybe they will listen to someone like you or Docta Corvina.

 

[Jeremius]

Dagmar, Raijin, i think this topic on whether Ulfric caused all this has been discussed thoroughly enough to warrant a move to another topic. Do you all agree that maybe we should all agree to disagree and let bygones be bygones?

 

[Znowcicle]

I was just trying to get people to move on. sorry if it sounded that way, would you mind coming up with a topic appropriate for this thread to discuss?

Thank you for being mature on that matter. It's very appreciated. Whether or not I mind is not the question I think you should be asking. Whether or not the discussions in the future, regardless of the subject, will be less vulgar and abashing is. (In my opinion of course) Because as Docta Corvina already stated, name calling does not help in proving any point. If anything it makes your point less viable. (When I say your I do not mean you directly, mind you)

 

[Jeremius]

Thank you for being mature on that matter. It's very appreciated. Whether or not I mind is not the question I think you should be asking. Whether or not the discussions in the future, regardless of the subject, will be less vulgar and abashing is. (In my opinion of course) Because as Docta Corvina already stated, name calling does not help in proving any point. If anything it makes your point less viable. (When I say your I do not mean you directly, mind you)

thanks i appreciate it Znowcicle

 

[Raijin]

Dagmar, Raijin, i think this topic on whether Ulfric caused all this has been discussed thoroughly enough to warrant a move to another topic. Do you all agree that maybe we should all agree to disagree and let bygones be bygones?

I don't hold grudges against anyone who disagrees with me on this forum. I actually enjoy speaking with Dagmar, Docta Corvina, and anyone else over on the shoutbox. The fact to the matter is we can spend the next 50 pages long telling each other that the Ulfric is a racist or the empire is a weak. The fact is NOBODY IS WRONG. This is a game, not reality. We all have the right to voice our opinions no matter what. One of the good things about games like Skyrim is that we, the players, are the ones that are in control. It's a RP game, and that is it. We have the decision to dictate what is right and what is wrong by picking sides. People want to shout out that Ulfric is a racist... that's their right, however it is the right of others to say that the empire was wrong to bow down to the Thalmor to ban the worship of Talos.We need to learn to respect each other opinions, and yes I need to practice what I preach.

I think the reason why we (yes all of us that excessively post here) have these heated arguments is because our minds are still in RP mode. Skyrim is fluffing addicting non of the less.

 

[Znowcicle]

Skyrim is f***ing addicting non of the less.

I think we can all agree on that!

 

[Epic Keith]

First off, Skyrim is already part of the Empire and has been for hundreds of years, the Imperials aren't invading. And second, no, Skyrim doesn't "belong to the Nords". Technically if it "belongs" to anyone it's the Altmer as they were there long before the Nords were.

Actually it should belong to the Dwemer and Snow Elves, but they are dead

 

[Ritterkreuz]

balgruuf chose to support the imperials. therefore, 'betrayal' is not a valid response.

the banning of talos, a corrupt, immoral and weak empire, and the treaty is more than enough to justify withdrawal from the empire.

in fact, skyrim (nords/jarls,etc.) has the right to withdraw and demand autonomy at any time.

'detrimental to tamriel' is irrelevant. 'too vulnerable' is irrelevant. even if it was known that all the inhabitants of skyrim would be utterly destroyed by the thalmor in a war doesn't change the fact that the reasons for skyrim's decision to want autonomy are valid.

listening to ulfric's dialogues has proven to me that his actions are righteous and just.

You know, it's a real testament to Bethesda that they could create a game which presents evidence in such a way that we could end up supporting two different sides based on the same evidence. Most poles on this topic show a fairly even split too.

Anyway, Balgruuf comes off to me as a Jarl who genuinely acts in the best interest of his people. His actions can only be viewed as betrayal if you support the Stormcloaks, and even then I would consider it a strong word.

The Empire may be weakened, but splitting from it only makes things worse in my opinion, not just for the empire, but for Skyrim as well. The elves won't need to divide and conquer if the humans do the dividing for them. What good is winning independence from a human empire only to end up as slaves to the Thalmor?

Ulfric is ticked about the war, the treaty, and the comrades he lost fighting for the empire I get it, but if the war had gone on it seems very likely that things would be far worse for the people of Skyrim. No it wasn't popular, but the Emperor did what he had to do to save mankind. Listening to Galmar Stone-Fist doesn't help either. He comes off as blood-thirsty, too eager to attack anyone who doesn't openly support the Stormcloaks. If this game were a real world situation I would have grave concerns of him seeking revenge on any who didn't support the cause enough. In fact I could almost see him carrying out Stalin-like purges of Skyrim.

 

[osheao]

Ritterkreuz

i'm in agreement with many of your points, especially, the ambiguous way that bethsoft wrote and executed the storyline of the civil war.

though, i do have a few comments:

for me, the biggest disagreement i have is when you say that it is only betrayal "if you support the stormcloaks." i think that is an absolute false statement. the banning of talos is an affront and betrayal to all nords and all of skyrim. it's a slap at free worship and a basic right of life. to support it in any way is black and white, for me. you either have values and the courage and fortitude to defend them despite the cost, or, you don't. the empire and many jarls, do not. as we know, balgruuf was given the freedom of choice and did not back the righteous, valid and courageous path.

lol, the galmar and ulfric conversations are good stuff! in fact, ulfric is the counter to galmar pro-warhawk mentality and should give many people in this debate pause when they label him.

lastly, to declare an enslaved skyrim population is very premature. skyrim/nords are a land and people of constant turmoil. it is in their nature to fight and survive. like i've said before (on this or another thread), i would have fought the thalmor first then demanded autonomy afterwards. however, ulfric himself has said, i believe, that the first thing they want to do is deal with the thalmor. (i blame the empire's response greatly.)
hammerfell has thwarted the thalmor and i have no doubt that skyrim will, as well.

 

[Dovahkiin165]

I joined the Stormcloaks because I am an Nord and if you recall at the beginning of the game, the Imperials would have cut your head off if not for Alduin intervening. If you are a Nord and a true son/daughter of Skyrim, join the Stormcloaks.

 

[Argonianale7]

And the enemy of the Imperials are the Stormcloaks. And your character was with the Stormcloaks for whatever reason. Thus, captured alongside the Stormcloaks (as well as that horse thief). How clearer do I have make it for you so you can actually comprehend? A first grader would be able to understand this.

You're an idiot, the Imperials can't just assume he's with the Stormcloaks just because he got caught in an ambush between them and give that as a reason to execute him/her. They are as bad as the Roman Empire in terms of law and reasoning. And he wasn't even wearing Stormcloak armour or had any part in the ambush. Blatant ignorance is all the Legion has.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

You're an idiot, the Imperials can't just assume he's with the Stormcloaks just because he got caught in an ambush between them and give that as a reason to execute him/her. They are as bad as the Roman Empire in terms of law and reasoning.

You're the one who is uneducated. During a war, it's best to not take chances. Finding two individuals among the enemy is cause for concern. And the Imperial Legion doesn't have the spare resources to investigate anyway. And as I've already said, but you probably missed, or didn't understand it. The Stormcloaks would have done the same thing had your character been captured among Imperial soldiers. The Stormcloaks wouldn't have investigated either.

And I'm not knowledgeable in all things Roman Empire, but I know someone who is. So, I'll just tag her, Docta Corvina, so she can best you accordingly in that topic.

 

[Argonianale7]

You're the one who is uneducated. During a war, it's best to not take chances. Finding two individuals among the enemy is cause for concern. And the Imperial Legion doesn't have the spare resources to investigate anyway. And as I've already said, but you probably missed, or didn't understand it. The Stormcloaks would have done the same thing had your character been captured among Imperial soldiers. The Stormcloaks wouldn't have investigated either.

And I'm not knowledgeable in all things Roman Empire, but I know someone who is. So, I'll just tag her, Docta Corvina, so she can best you accordingly in that topic.

During a war you don't kill innocent people just because they are caught within a riot. Even more so when they have nothing to assume they are Stormcloaks. And what proof do you have that the Stormcloaks would have done the same? None. Keep in mind these people were also in Ragged robes, not suited for war or battles.

 

[Janus3003]

During a war you don't kill innocent people just because they are caught within a riot. Even more so when they have nothing to assume they are Stormcloaks.

Couple of guesses-
1) Like you, he's a suspected Stormcloak. Illegally crossing the border and getting caught in an ambush (alongside the friggin' rebel leader) does that kind of thing. You'll notice that despite his pleas, none of the Stormcloaks bother to help him.
2) With his name on the list (and yours missing), he could very well be a wanted criminal already.

My quote was about Lokir, but number 1 applies to the player as well. And I love how none of the Stormcloaks bother to help you or Lokir during the situation.
Yes, the fact that you're nearly executed is terrible. Yes, it was illegal.
But I'll take an Empire with a few bad apple managers over a rebellion led by a murderous usurper any day.

And what proof do you have that the Stormcloaks would have done the same? None. Keep in mind these people were also in Ragged robes, not suited for war or battles.

If it were really that simple, the Stormcloaks would just change clothes.
"Captain! We've captured Ulfric Stormcloak!"
"No, that's not him, you idiot. Ulfric never wears green. Let that man go."

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

During a war you don't kill innocent people just because they are caught within a riot. Even more so when they have nothing to assume they are Stormcloaks. And what proof do you have that the Stormcloaks would have done the same? None. Keep in mind these people were also in Ragged robes, not suited for war or battles.

And how does the Imperials know they are innocent? The horse thief could have had past crimes against him. You were found with the enemy. They are not going to take foolish chances and let someone go just because they COULD BE innocent. Besides, Hadvar did inquire as to who you were and what you were doing there. It was his Superior who ordered your execution. Don't paint the whole Empire like that just because of one soldier.

And my proof as to the Stormcloaks executing you if caught among the enemy is simple. You aren't a Stormcloak. Off with his head!