Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[nogz]

The Thalmor will not win again, if the Dragonborn has anything to do with it. At least, if my Dragonborn has anything to do with it. I'm guessing she could wipe out a whole army armed with her Voice and the number of Shouts she knows. Put another 20 legions behind her, and you got an unstoppable force. The point I'm making is, whichever side wins, Empire or Stormcloak, the Thalmor are doomed because of one person: the Dragonborn. It's a factor they couldn't have predicted. If he sides with the Empire, that's a plopsload of martial power to the Empire. Same goes for the Stormcloaks. So the Thalmor are pretty much screwed.

The Dragonborn is just the player story, and honestly nothing that much happens in the game. Let's see, you kill the Emperor (IF you join the Brotherhood), you stop and kill Alduin (nothing to do with the political scene in the world), and you help and end the civil war (Empire or Stormcloak) which is basically all that matters in the big picture. And since you can help each side this is purely made for more roleplaying and/or more gameplayer hours and it says nothing about how the war would really end. As I see it Bethesda doesn't have a problem jumping in time and so on. The things are going to be as they say, but realistically the Dominion should be on the rise with the Empire loosing more and more grip on power.

EDIT: And the Dwemer have been wiped from existence. If you played Morrowind, you'd know that. They're gone for good. They'll never return. You talk to the last of the Dwemer in Morrowind, and one individual can't revive an entire species.

Yeah, I learn that much from playing Skyrim and reading the books and talking with people in the game. I especially liked the Arniel Gane questsline and also the irony of him vanishing w/o a trace while trying to find more about a race that did the same. But it never says they are wiped out, as if dead, they are just gone, which makes them a good "tool" to use by Bethesda, first they are mysterious which is always cool and also they can be pulled out of nowhere for some awesome storyline. I'm simply not writing them off and I'm willing to bet Bethesda hasn't also.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

Well, that was an interesting read this morning. I'm seriously considering doing a general Skyrim/Elder Scrolls debate thread.

 

[Apollyon Yagami]

Well, that was an interesting read this morning. I'm seriously considering doing a general Skyrim/Elder Scrolls debate thread.

sarcasm?

 

[mast3rlinkx]

The Dragonborn is just the player story, and honestly nothing that much happens in the game. Let's see, you kill the Emperor (IF you join the Brotherhood), you stop and kill Alduin (nothing to do with the political scene in the world), and you help and end the civil war (Empire or Stormcloak) which is basically all that matters in the big picture. And since you can help each side this is purely made for more roleplaying and/or more gameplayer hours and it says nothing about how the war would really end. As I see it Bethesda doesn't have a problem jumping in time and so on. The things are going to be as they say, but realistically the Dominion should be on the rise with the Empire loosing more and more grip on power.



Yeah, I learn that much from playing Skyrim and reading the books and talking with people in the game. I especially liked the Arniel Gane questsline and also the irony of him vanishing w/o a trace while trying to find more about a race that did the same. But it never says they are wiped out, as if dead, they are just gone, which makes them a good "tool" to use by Bethesda, first they are mysterious which is always cool and also they can be pulled out of nowhere for some awesome storyline. I'm simply not writing them off and I'm willing to bet Bethesda hasn't also.

If it weren't for the damn rebellion, the Empire would have regained its footing long ago. It's because of Ulfric that the Empire's gotten weaker than it should have. You make Ulfric look like a saint, but he's a racist, egotistical bastard who's responsible for the Empire's being almost dead. His war is taking up resources that would normally be put into recovery. That, my friend, is why I side with the Empire. Because Ulfric is a racist, egotistical bastard who doesn't think things completely through. If he truly hated the Thalmor, he'd never have started the war, unless he's just that foolish. There's a lot more evidence for Ulfric being the bad guy than the reverse. All you have for the Empire is that they tried to decapitate you.

And I said it's been a few years since I talked to the last Dwemer, who resides in Morrowind.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

It does make sense that the Stormcloak rebellion is wasting resources but what worries me. Is how Hammerfell alone fought the Dominion to a standstill. It makes me wonder if maybe the Empire is not that good of a military force and they were not utilizing the Redguards very well.

The Redguards are some of the greatest warriors in Tamriel, they were fighting a severely weakened invasion force who were out of their element in the desert environment.

Sent from HTC app Tapatalk

 

[Docta Corvina]

Call me overly suspicious, but when it comes to the Thalmor, I don't put anything past them. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that the Hammerfell stalemate was itself a calculated maneuver on their part, a strategic withdrawal. By that point, they already knew and had seen the strain and bitterness the Concordat caused in Hammerfell's relations with the Empire. It very well could have been another plotted move in its prolonged proxy war. I'm not at all trying to say that the Redguards don't deserve any credit, because they do. However, I don't think it's as cut and dry as that. It never is with the Dominion.

They knew damn well that the Hammerfell example would be pointed to in years to come, when similar circumstances would be played out in Skyrim.

 

[mast3rlinkx]

The Redguards are some of the greatest warriors in Tamriel, they were fighting a severely weakened invasion force who were out of their element in the desert environment.

Sent from HTC app Tapatalk

If Hammerfell were to rejoin the Empire, then there's no way the Aldmeri Dominion could defeat them, with the Alik'r and such on their side. Redguard warriors are really badass.

 

[Janus3003]

Call me overly suspicious, but when it comes to the Thalmor, I don't put anything past them. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that the Hammerfell stalemate was itself a calculated maneuver on their part, a strategic withdrawal. By that point, they already knew and had seen the strain and bitterness the Concordat caused in Hammerfell's relations with the Empire. It very well could have been another plotted move in its prolonged proxy war. I'm not at all trying to say that the Redguards don't deserve any credit, because they do. However, I don't think it's as cut and dry as that. It never is with the Dominion.

They knew damn well that the Hammerfell example would be pointed to in years to come, when similar circumstances would be played out in Skyrim.

You're not the only one who thinks the Thalmor were intending tension between Hammerfell and the Empire:
Skyrim:The Great War - UESPWiki

Epilogue: Hammerfell Fights On Alone
Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal. In this, the Thalmor certainly achieved one of their long-term goals by sowing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire.
In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated. The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire. The truth of that assertion can, of course, never be known. But the Redguards should not forget the great sacrifice of Imperial blood - Breton, Nord, and Cyrodilic - at the Battle of the Red Ring that weakened the Dominion enough to allow the eventual Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180 and the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell.
There can be no doubt that the current peace cannot last forever. The Thalmor take the long view, as is proved by the sequence of events leading up to the Great War. All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat. Otherwise, any hope to stem the tide of Thalmor rule over all of Tamriel is dimmed.

I feel like Dagmar.

 

[nogz]

If it weren't for the damn rebellion, the Empire would have regained its footing long ago. It's because of Ulfric that the Empire's gotten weaker than it should have. You make Ulfric look like a saint, but he's a racist, egotistical bastard who's responsible for the Empire's being almost dead. His war is taking up resources that would normally be put into recovery. That, my friend, is why I side with the Empire. Because Ulfric is a racist, egotistical bastard who doesn't think things completely through. If he truly hated the Thalmor, he'd never have started the war, unless he's just that foolish. There's a lot more evidence for Ulfric being the bad guy than the reverse. All you have for the Empire is that they tried to decapitate you.

I really doubt that. Active military action in the civil war started not too long ago, and what the Empire had done for the past 25 or so years? Yeah, that's right. Nothing. All they did was bow to the Dominion and do what they were told. You'd think they would lick their wounds as fast as they can and try to negotiate a new treaty, after all the Dominion also lost a lot in the war. But no, they do as they are told and that's that. You think if the Empire had any guts and said they were not banning the worship of Talos and so, Skyrim would have still rebelled? The Empire as it stands now is nothing more than a puppet state for the Dominion and therefor should be oppose in any way possible. Agreeing on what the enemy wants is the beginning of the end. First worshiping Talos is banned, and lets not forget he is not only a god, he is a hero of the humans, a symbol for what the humans in Tamriel are capable of. Take that away and you destroy a big chunk of their culture, pride and heritage. After some years they would say do this, and do that, and before you know it your whole Empire is basically a nation full of slaves. While Ulfric is undeniably prejudice, the real "egotistical bastards" and "racists" in this world is the ruling party of the Dominion. If they had their way they would rule Tamriel with an iron rod and the way things are going with this pushover Empire they might as well get there. And if Bethesda really wanted to show how much of a racist Ulfric is they could have done it. Like not being able to join the Stormcloaks if your race is not nord or only nords living in Windhelm or public executions of elves or something. Ulfric is what you need to be in time of war - doubtful and careful, or you risk of being infiltrated and destroyed from within. If the dark elves in Windhelm would have to pick their side, you know probably the side of the people that actually gave you homes and work in the first place, they wouldn't be any prejudice or "racism" towards them. When you first enter the city the 2 nords are being "racists" cos the elves wouldn't pick a side, it has nothing to do with them being dark elves. And so on. That's what I have against the Empire and why I'm choosing the Stormcloaks, it has nothing to do with the Empire trying to decapitate me. And even so, that would be a good enough reason as it is..

 

[Janus3003]

And if Bethesda really wanted to show how much of a racist Ulfric is they could have done it. Like not being able to join the Stormcloaks if your race is not nord or only nords living in Windhelm or public executions of elves or something.

Considering that a Khajiit player character can enter cities without any trouble, I think Bethesda decided to err on the side of gameplay than character integrity.

When you first enter the city the 2 nords are being "racists" cos the elves wouldn't pick a side, it has nothing to do with them being dark elves.

"Every night, I go to the Gray Quarter and let them gray-skins know what I think of 'em."
"You damn gray-skin. Go back to Morrowind!"
Not "racist" at all, no sir.

 

[mast3rlinkx]

I really doubt that. Active military action in the civil war started not too long ago, and what the Empire had done for the past 25 or so years? Yeah, that's right. Nothing. All they did was bow to the Dominion and do what they were told. You'd think they would lick their wounds as fast as they can and try to negotiate a new treaty, after all the Dominion also lost a lot in the war. But no, they do as they are told and that's that. You think if the Empire had any guts and said they were not banning the worship of Talos and so, Skyrim would have still rebelled? The Empire as it stands now is nothing more than a puppet state for the Dominion and therefor should be oppose in any way possible. Agreeing on what the enemy wants is the beginning of the end. First worshiping Talos is banned, and lets not forget he is not only a god, he is a hero of the humans, a symbol for what the humans in Tamriel are capable of. Take that away and you destroy a big chunk of their culture, pride and heritage. After some years they would say do this, and do that, and before you know it your whole Empire is basically a nation full of slaves. While Ulfric is undeniably prejudice, the real "egotistical bastards" and "racists" in this world is the ruling party of the Dominion. If they had their way they would rule Tamriel with an iron rod and the way things are going with this pushover Empire they might as well get there. And if Bethesda really wanted to show how much of a racist Ulfric is they could have done it. Like not being able to join the Stormcloaks if your race is not nord or only nords living in Windhelm or public executions of elves or something. Ulfric is what you need to be in time of war - doubtful and careful, or you risk of being infiltrated and destroyed from within. If the dark elves in Windhelm would have to pick their side, you know probably the side of the people that actually gave you homes and work in the first place, they wouldn't be any prejudice or "racism" towards them. When you first enter the city the 2 nords are being "racists" cos the elves wouldn't pick a side, it has nothing to do with them being dark elves. And so on. That's what I have against the Empire and why I'm choosing the Stormcloaks, it has nothing to do with the Empire trying to decapitate me. And even so, that would be a good enough reason as it is..

What you forget is that Ulfric's just in it for the throne. He doesn't care about the cause at all. All he talks about is being in songs, and that shocks even Galmar. Ulfric is not in it for the "freedom" of Skyrim. He's in it for becoming High King. There's plenty of evidence given in the game. If you don't see that, that's your own fault. He puts the Dunmer in the Gray Quarter, a horrible place to live (I actually went to the Gray Quarter. I doubt you did, the way you're talking about it). Most of the Dunmer try to get jobs, but the racism of the Nords prevents that from happening. So they're stuck with jobs that either pay very little, or nothing at all. So these "jobs and homes" you're talking about are the "jobs and homes" that the Nords would never use. Had that Dunmer been a Nord instead who didn't pick a side, then those two Nords wouldn't have antagonized her.

The Empire gives a better second impression than the Stormcloaks, as well. The Empire sent you to do something useful for your test. And what did the Stormcloaks do? Send you to do something that doesn't even contribute to the cause. I don't care that proving yourself there is a custom, they're in the middle of a damn war! They should have sent you to do something helpful to the cause. The Empire is much more reasonable than the Stormcloaks, much more logical. Logic will always beat raw emotion, for logic will allow you to think things throuh. Emotion always has you charging in blindly. Ultimately, the main reason I side with the Empire is because they're the more logical side, and they're defending against a man who's extremely selfish with no real desire to secede from the Empire. He's just using the Talos ban as an excuse and a way to recruit people to aid him in gaining the throne.

 

[nogz]

Janus3003

Like I said, it's cos they are not picking a side, you do not necessary fight with someone who is on your side, especially in times of war. Go to market, talk to the elven woman, she says it best - ""It was difficult at first. The Nords of this city are, at best, suspicious of outsiders. But in time I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore. The Dunmer are too proud and naive to see the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum."

 

[Epic Keith]

"Every night, I go to the Gray Quarter and let them gray-skins know what I think of 'em."
"You damn gray-skin. Go back to Morrowind!"
Not "racist" at all, no sir.

I became a Nord Female only to beat the hell outta that guy. Then he called me a 'friend'

Another cattle for the Ebony Blade

 

[Janus3003]

Had that Dunmer been a Nord instead who didn't pick a side, then those two Nords wouldn't have antagonized her.

I don't know about that. They are Stormcloaks, after all.

 

[mast3rlinkx]

Janus3003

Like I said, it's cos they are not picking a side, you do not necessary fight with someone who is on your side, especially in times of war. Go to market, talk to the elven woman, she says it best - ""It was difficult at first. The Nords of this city are, at best, suspicious of outsiders. But in time I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore. The Dunmer are too proud and naive to see the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum."

And that would be the opinion of an individual.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Seriously, if Rolff's only problem was that they "weren't picking a side", he could have easily indicated as much without hurling racial epithets and insults. Just sayin'.

 

[mast3rlinkx]

I don't know about that. They are Stormcloaks, after all.

Okay, they wouldn't have given her as much trouble.

EDIT: But my point still stands, nonetheless.

 

[nogz]

Docta Corvina

Racial epithets and insults? I play khajiit, Ulfric calls me "cat".. if I call you primate is that an insult? Rolff calls them dark-skins which again they are.. that's not much of a racial epithet, that's a term for generalizing their race, like us.. we have black, white, brown etc. ...

mast3rlinkx

Yeah, and your opinion that Ulfric is racist "would be the opinion of an individual." How about comment on that opinion??

 

[Janus3003]

Rolff calls them dark-skins which again they are.. that's not much of a racial epithet, that's a term for generalizing their race, like us.. we have black, white, brown etc. ...

Go address everyone you meet by their skin color and let us know how it worked out for you.
And I think calling a Khajiit "cat" and an Argonian "lizard" is rather disrespectful, considering they're actually sentient and not just your regular animals.

Besides, it's not just the words, but the tone.

 

[mast3rlinkx]

Docta Corvina

Racial epithets and insults? I play khajiit, Ulfric calls me "cat".. if I call you primate is that an insult? Rolff calls them dark-skins which again they are.. that's not much of a racial epithet, that's a term for generalizing their race, like us.. we have black, white, brown etc. ...

mast3rlinkx

Yeah, and your opinion that Ulfric is racist "would be the opinion of an individual." How about comment on that opinion??

That statement is much closer to fact than what she said. It has been proven right by a lot of evidence given in-game. The Gray Quarter is an example of said racism. In fact, all of Windhelm is an example. Ulfric only helps the Nords. The Altmer you mentioned is merely tolerated. Since Ulfric selectively helps his people, he's a terrible Jarl and deserves to die. Everyone that looks up to Ulfric is a Nord. Every non-Nord race hates his guts because of how racist he is.