Mages are impossible! A rant/inquiry

[OgdruJahad]

Seriously, I cannot be the only person to notice this, or be affected by this. Mages in this damn game are just impossible, or at least incredibly difficult, to play as!

So, yeah. I made a Mage character. Because I will forever love magic-users in fantasy. So I figured I'd give playing as a Mage a fair shot... mistake! Big mistake!

Okay, I'll explain. First, know that my level of "skill" at specific games is often highly debatable. So I'm pretty sure most of this just comes down to me failing spectacularly in every possible way. But yeah. Onto the meat of it: There's just so much crap you need to remember when playing as one. You need to have your armour spell of choice in effect (Oakflesh, Stoneflesh, etc) or you'll get your arse neatly served to you on a platter. If you're facing other Mages you need to have a Ward up at all times or you get your arse neatly served to you on a platter. But even when I used a Ward the thing was woefully ineffective. The idea is pretty simply: Hold the Ward up and enemy spells are lessened. But it doesn't work! I put a Ward up, an enemy throws some magic Destruction magic my way and either I still take damage or some weird staggering thing happens, leaving me open to continued attacks that destroy my frail, robe-clad body.

It doesn't help that enemy Mage's wards seem to be able to stop absolutely damn everything. Got to the point (before I raged and deleted the stupid character because to Hell with that noise) that I was throwing Adept-level Fireball spells at them, which is essentially like throwing a rocket-propelled grenade at them, but they got their Ward up in the split-second before the spell hit them and absolutely no damage was taken! None! Yet they throw Apprentice frost spells at me and my Ward shatters like sugar glass and I get my arse neatly served to me on a platter.

On top of that frustration, you need to make sure your minion (be it zombie or Atronach) is still up and running (which odds are it won't be) and if the Atronach dies (which it will) for reasons known only to Bethesda the damn thing explodes and hurts you if you're standing anywhere nearby (which you will be).

Speaking of, given the whole "wearing only robes" thing if you take a good number of hits you are utterly toast no matter what the enemy. And you will take hits because combat often gets so damn insane (especially if fighting other Mages, particularly Necromancers) that getting hit from every direction is pretty much inevitable!

So yeah, Mages suck.

Now, why did I make this thread? Three reasons:

1. I needed to vent like a petulant child throwing a tantrum. Sorry about that, but I needed to for my own well-being.

2. I needed to ask people who undoubtedly knew more about Skyrim than I do (which is roughly every person here) if they had any possible advice on how I can more effectively play a Mage. Because I want to play Mages. I love Mages and want to play one desperately. But it's just so un-endingly frustrating!

3. Same reason as before, except I was wondering if anyone had any good tips on how to make a Mage who doesn't die like a whimpering loser whenever someone swings a sword vaguely in his direction.

I was thinking you could go with Heavy Armour with a Mage. But with Heavy Armour, Smithing (to make better Heavy Armour), Enchanting (to make said Armour magical and awesome) and the Magic schools on top of that, there's just not enough perks available to really flesh out such a build.

Okay, that's about it from me here. Sorry if you actually decided to sit through the rant at the beginning, I just really needed to get that out before I exploded.

... You know now I think of it, this would have been a lot more practical for me, in terms of the "asking Mage advice" thing, if I hadn't rage-deleted my Mage earlier. Oh well, I suppose that's what I get for being an irrational idiot.

 

[thatwudbryan]

Thats part of the fun man gotta gut it out till you get the fun spells like invisibilty, paralysis/mass paralysis, master level destruction and of course your choice of conjure dremora lord and or dead thrall. Yea you die a lot in the beggining but thats what enchantings for! Make a follower some godly weapons n armor, when approaching enemies try to stay undetected n spray em with sum high level destruction spells, let your follower charge in n do the dirty work n jus sit back n be a sneaky little plops of a mage. Thats what I did n my mage turned out fine but to each his own

 

[OgdruJahad]

Thats part of the fun man gotta gut it out till you get the fun spells like invisibilty, paralysis/mass paralysis, master level destruction and of course your choice of conjure dremora lord and or dead thrall. Yea you die a lot in the beggining but thats what enchantings for! Make a follower some godly weapons n armor, when approaching enemies try to stay undetected n spray em with sum high level destruction spells, let your follower charge in n do the dirty work n jus sit back n be a sneaky little pl*** of a mage. Thats what I did n my mage turned out fine but to each his own

I had a companion once. Lydia the Housecarl. She died pretty early on due to her own rampant stupidity and I didn't even notice she was missing until it was too late to go back and re-do it. She just rushed into a room full of vampires, Necromancers and a Flame Atronach all fighting each other and got lost in the utter chaos of it all. I had no way of finding her in that lot, not if I wanted to stay alive, and I didn't have the Healing Hands spell at the time so even if I found her I couldn't have healed her.

The invisibility and paralysis ones (I think the paralysis one, I might be wrong) are in the Illusion school, right? In which case, I didn't have them because I was already worried about spreading myself too thin perk-wise so I had to cut one of the Schools out, and Illusion didn't seem immediately useful enough to keep around.

See what I mean about my lack of skill most likely causing my Mage problems?

 

[thatwudbryan]

Dude, I was prolly in the exact same boat you were in when I started my mage. I also used Lydia as a main follower n let me tell you she was basically USELESS until I wabbajacked her n upped her from level 5 or whatever she was, I recommend that unless your against exploits. After that I enchanted her a full steel plate armor set minus the helmet with double enchantments o ya n necklace n ring too. 2 fortify-heavyarmor, 2 heatlh boosts, 2 magic resist and a resist fire and frost for good measure. She is now literally F****** UNSTOPPABLE. I couldn' kill her if i tried cuz I did, n after shooting her with about 15 fireballs her health went down like maybe 10points I'd guess the damage was barely visible its insane. My problem was tho that I power leveled illusion and alteration at somewhat early levels so I purdy much had to put perks into illusion, alteration I didn't mind cuz IMO it's the best mage perk tree. So from about level 28-38 I basically got owned by EVERYTHING. Long story short, illusion and alteration perk trees are Very important for a pure mage build and above all else, whatever attack magic you plan on usin whether it be destruction or conjuration that skill should always be higher than your other magic skills (unless your going pacifist) or else you''ll die every time you enter heavy combat. There are some Really informative and helpful mage guides on here you should scope em out.

 

[MushroomGenius]

I think you need to re-think your approach to combat, that's all. The flesh spells are sufficient for keeping you alive even with robes. The idea is to NOT get hit.

Use of a tank-like follower (Fighter/Warrior) is preferable starting out, along with your summon (Atronach/Familiar), you're a party of three. You should make good use of Sneak as well, carefully examining rooms before entering them. Figure out what's in there before you dive in. Definitely send in your atronach/familiar ahead of you (notice I didn't say zombie?) to start the battle. Your flesh spells should be cast prior to entering any room or immediately after your battle just to refresh it.

Personally, I never use Wards.

Edit: some advice I previously gave.

I leveled all Schools at the same time on a Pure Mage Altmer character. She capped the Schools in the following order: Conjuration, Destruction, Illusion, Alteration, Restoration.

• Conjuration: Always summoned Atronachs in battle until I had Dremoras which I used until I had Dead Thrall.

• Destruction: Primarily focused on Shock magick, some Fire depending on the enemy/situation. Didn't bother with Runes or Cloaks.
• Illusion: Primarily used Fury/Frenzy, some Calm/Pacify, some Rally, rarely Fear/Rout as I'd end up chasing them. Used Muffle occasionally, Invisibility occasionally.
• Alteration: Flesh spells, Transmute, Candlelight/Magelight, heavy on Paralysis once I got it.
• Restoration: Healing, Grand Healing. Didn't bother with Wards, Turn Undead.

It takes a lot of flipping back and forth with the Favorites menu, while cumbersome, it can be done pretty smoothly. It won't ever be seamless, but it's not so bad after awhile. It just takes some planning.

Typically cast Flesh spell between combat or just before combat. Summon an Atronach as close to target as possible while I remain hidden. Atronach fights enemy in CQC while I attack at range using Lightning. If multiple targets are there, I could use Calm/Fury also. Restorative spells after combat is done or in left hand during combat.

Hotkeyed, Left Hand - Heal/Grand Healing, Right Hand - Summon Atronach/Dremora.

I didn't bother too much trying to manipulate Enchanting to get all the reductions, using Archmage Robes, Gloves enchanted with Magicka Extension (increase pool), Boots w/ carry weight, Krosis mask (until I found a decent Circlet), and a +Magicka Pool ring/neckalce. If I was running low on Magicka, I'd just down a few potions or just back off combat for a while letting my summon and Follower continue the fight. (FYI: I was playing on Adept difficulty. If you're playing on higher difficulties, since your spells don't do as much dmg to an enemy, Enchanting becomes far more important)

 

[daedalus93]

Playing as a mage will be very, very difficult until you get Impact and enchant some gear to reduce magicka costs. Even with a huge pool of magicka it seems to run out way too fast without enchanting.
After those two are accomplished though, it becomes very easy (in most situations). Spells may not scale in damage, but the fact that you can stunlock even giants and mammoths to death is pretty powerful. Later on, mages seem to have the easiest time dealing with dragons due to being able to make it stop Shouting or moving (on the ground) with literally every spell you fling at it.

As for mage NPCs, yes, they are ridiculously OP until so late in the game that you're ridiculously OP. Especially the ones that use relatively powerful Mage Armor spells very early in the game.
If you use one-handed weapons, Spellbreaker is worth getting ASAP even without any Block investment. There's also a quest you can do for a priestess of Mara in Riften that gives you a permanent magic resist buff (it's 5% if I recall correctly, but don't quote me on it). Then of course there's always Bretons, the Lord/Atronach Stone, and Alteration perks.
Just be sure to target them first with everything you've got! I'd also recommend stockpiling any poisons you come across that do damage/paralyze (but don't bother with damaging their magicka, NPCs seem to be able to recharge it very quickly, and it's better to just kill them as fast as possible).

 

[OgdruJahad]

Mushroom - I tried summoning the Atronach near the enemy while staying hidden, but whenever I did the enemy would just completely ignore the flaming demon that just materialised and set them on fire and instead charge directly at me.

And since them running forward is faster than me back-pedalling, I ended up getting sliced up the strap with irritating regularity. Which again, because of the robes, did not end well for me.

 

[daedalus93]

Mushroom - I tried summoning the Atronach near the enemy while staying hidden, but whenever I did the enemy would just completely ignore the flaming demon that just materialised and set them on fire and instead charge directly at me.

And since them running forward is faster than me back-pedalling, I ended up getting sliced up the strap with irritating regularity. Which again, because of the robes, did not end well for me.

If you've got perk points to spare, Quiet Casting from the Illusion tree will solve your first problem completely.

As for the back-pedaling, well, don't! You gotta turn around and sprint to gain significant distance. And don't just run away in a straight line and turn around to start casting again; try using terrain to your advantage, like making sure obstacles (rocks, those burial urns, whatever) are in between you and the target, or running up some stairs, flinging a spell or two at the enemy, and jumping off and repeating (enemies won't jump down from small ledges if there are stairs/a ramp they can use).

 

[Psiberzerker]

What difficulty are you on? I play Wizards, rather well, they're impossible above Adept. I know, I know, it's unfortunately true. Dial it back to Apprentice until you get the hang of it, one does not simply dive into Master as a Wizard.

 

[OgdruJahad]

I don't even know what difficulty it's on. So I'd assume since I've never touched the difficulty setting it's on whatever the standard, default setting is.

And on the sprinting - I may be faster than enemies running, but I have no extra points in Stamina so I get tired exceptionally easily. Which is when the aforementioned "sword-slice up the strap" happens.

 

[Dagmar]

You need to have your armour spell of choice in effect (Oakflesh, Stoneflesh, etc) or you'll get your arse neatly served to you on a platter.

For a pure mage, Alteration spells are not going to offer you much protection. They're there to keep you from getting killed from one or two hits but they're not meant to protect you from much more.

Think of them as part of a larger strategy to mitigate damage. Two means of mitigating damage are with what are sometimws colloquially referred to in these type of games as meat shields and crowd control and you should be prepared to use all three for any encounter.

Meat shields for a mage are their conjured minions who will draw enemy attacks towards them and away from the mage. You can even cast them at the entrance of rooms multiple times while staying out of sight to soften up enemies when you are low level and especially squishy. Summoned minions don't explode when their duration expires. The only ones that explode at all are the Flame Atronach after it's killed and the Flaming Familiar which you are supposed to send after enemies to do exactly that.

Crowd control can come in any number of forms. Paralyze was mentioned (which is an Alteration spell not an Illusion spell) but it's not hard to get the Ice Form shout to do this as well.

If you're facing other Mages you need to have a Ward up at all times or you get your arse neatly served to you on a platter. But even when I used a Ward the thing was woefully ineffective. The idea is pretty simply: Hold the Ward up and enemy spells are lessened.

I'm not sure why your Ward spell isn't protecting you but you can and should should also get magic resistance effects. Use the Lord Stone as your active Standing Stone for 25% magic resistance and 50 points of armor rating. You can get an additional 15% magic resistance from the Agent of Mara power which you receive upon completing the Book of Love quest for Dinya Balu, the priestess at the Temple of Mara in Riften. You can also get up to 30% magic resistance with Alteration perks. If you select the Breton as you character race you also get a racial bonus of 25% magic resistance, so even without Alteration perks you can very quickly get 65% magic resistance as a Breton.

A very safe easy build to start off with is one that focuses primarily on Conjuration with secondary focus on Destruction, and tertiary focuses on Restoration (wards and healing) and Alteration (armor rating, crowd control and magic resistance) . It's a little slow going at first but you let your minions take the charge for most of the early game and sweep in to finish opponents with Destruction magic after they are sufficiently weakened. Once your Conjuration spells are strong enough you wont have to delay your Destruction magic attacks anymore.

 

[OgdruJahad]

Okay, I'm starting my new Mage. Going to be playing it, according to the phrase the official guide gives it, as a "Defensive" Mage. Playing as a Breton, focusing on Conjuration and Illusion primarily at first, to keep me out of the thick of combat as much as possible.

Now, should I give him just bright-coloured irises, or full blank white eyes? Ah trivial decisions.

 

[Psiberzerker]

Now, should I give him just bright-coloured irises, or full blank white eyes? Ah trivial decisions.

LOLZ

 

[Dagmar]

Mushroom - I tried summoning the Atronach near the enemy while staying hidden.

The only way you are going to be able to summon an Atronach near an enemy without Summoner perks is to be so close to them that they will hear your spellcasting and lock onto you before your Atronach is up and has been able to deliver sufficient damage to draw their attention away from you. You only have to be able to summon them within seeing distance of an enemy. Outdoors that's pretty easy to do, and indoors you can simply operate under the assumption that there are going to be enemies in any room and summon your minion in the doorway/entrance area of a chamber/room ahead of you.

 

[Dar'Neko]

I primarily used Destruction and Conjuration. As soon as you can summon stuff far away, it gets so much easier. Just conjure something that can tank while you spam Destruction/Healing if someone goes for you.

 

[MushroomGenius]

Also, if you're being chased, that's an ideal time to turn around and drop a summon right in your pursuer's face, this works particularly well in hallways as they may have no way around your summon and have to fight through them. Have an idea of how much damage your summon can handle and be sure to recast them before they die.

 

[MojoFilter99]

There are a couple of guidelines to follow if you're playing a straight Mage character (and by this, I mean you're not using armor or any sort of melee weapons...just spells, robes, and staves):

1) Pick a group of enemies off at the edges, one by one. Don't ever try to take on a mass of enemies if you can avoid it. Your defenses as a pure mage are by far the weakest in the game, and your offensive capability doesn't allow you to stand in a long fight until way later in the game...and even then, they're still not comparable to a melee-based character who can swing a Warhammer for 700+ points of damage at a shot. I'd never charge headlong into an area like Halted Stream Camp, for instance. I'd pick 'em off from the perimeter.

2) Let others do the fighting for you. This means bring followers, and also Conjuration and Illusion...invest in those two trees heavily. Having two Dead-Thralled high level drones takes a lot of the heat off of you. Even before that, just having a single Flame Atronach winging plops at your foes takes some of the heat off of you.

Illusion might be even more important in the long run, since you can pretty much get everyone to stop fighting, and then pick them off, one by one...or you can get them to fight each other, which does your work for you.

3) Dual-enchant your own robes, so that you at least can get Destruction spells at zero cost. That means boosting your Alchemy and Enchanting so that you can get the perk that allows Dual Enchanting, and getting your Alchemy skills high enough so that you can make potions that increase your enchanting skills to reach the desirable "zero cost" level. Enchanting a circlet, robes, gloves and boots so that they all give you "Fortify Destuction - Destruction spells cost "25%+" less. 4 items multiplied by 25% less = 0% Magicka spent for every Destruction spell, regardless of level.

At this point, you'll never run out of "ammo" for Destruction spells, and can fire away at will. Nothing worse than getting into a fight with a Legendary Dragon, winging a dual-cast "Incinerate" at him, and then running out after 4-5 shots.

That's all I've got for now, but hopefully that'll help you somewhat.

 

[MojoFilter99]

Oh yeah:

4) Run. Run a lot. Stand still, and you're very quickly a dead Dovahkiin.

 

[Dar'Neko]

Also, invest in Illusion. Once you can cast Fury on high level opponents, you don't have to rely on Conjuration as much, except for undead.

 

[DdraigGwyn]

There is a lot of good advice here, especially for later in the game. I have a couple of suggestions for early play, as long as you are okay with a little bit of using the system. One is to avoid leveling up. That sounds crazy (no perks) but usually helps as the NPCs stay low level while you are getting better weapons and loading up with potions, finding enchanted robes etc. at some point you can take all the pent up leveling and apply the perks; just be ready for suddenly tougher foes. The second trick is the well-known Sanguine Rose quest as soon as you reach level 14. This gives you a powerful ally in any fight, as well as some entertainment listening to his comments.