123
Active Member
A fair reason is "The Empire agreed to outlaw Talos which hurts people."
Saying "HONOR!!!!!!111" isn't.
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Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
- Start date
A fair reason is "The Empire agreed to outlaw Talos which hurts people."
Saying "HONOR!!!!!!111" isn't.
Docta Corvina
Well-Known Member
PrisonerLizzie
Well-Known Member
thatwudbryan
yet another skyrim enthusiast
He wont, I asked before
123
Active Member
Are you serious?
A 'cultural belief,' that basically constitutes getting killed to fill your individual sense of honor, is NOT reason. You don't doom an entire race for years to come because you equate honor to dying.
If the Aldmeri won, there wouldn't be a massive fight on the planes of Whiterun, where every single human in Tamriel fought and died. No. The Aldmeri would defeat the Stormcloak forces, with ease I must add, and then they would take control of the cities, enslave the people, and enjoy their newfound government.
Is it still 'honor' when your idiotic actions in battle result in the death and enslavement of thousands of people?
FullmetalHeart20
Well-Known Member
A fair one would be the Confederate. And nice insult. Reall original.
123
Active Member
I find it funny how you guys refuse to acknowledge any points other than the one you find most debatable, which is also the least relevant. I literally wrote a list of why the Stormcloaks are wrong, but all you could gather from it was a miniscule point at the end which you've sidetracked into a discussion about honor.
PrisonerLizzie
Well-Known Member
But I don't understand why you feel it is so much better to cast aside something that is a fundamental part of these peoples identities for a false peace. If beliefs aren't worth fighting for then what do you suggest are worthy causes of war? So again I ask Why is honor not a valid reason?
thatwudbryan
yet another skyrim enthusiast
Oh I acknowledged that the Imperials were whats 'probably' best for Skyrim, I jus don't AGREE with their reasons for fighting in the first place. They do what they do cuz a piece of paper says so, bottom line. I admire the SC's (racism aside) for their display of actual EMOTION and heart felt reasons for fighting is all, it is a video game afterall. N on the Imperial supporter side of arguement sayin "SC's jus do n act as Ulfirc says n does" is complete BS. They fight for what the believe in, not some piece of paper n higher ups tellin em what to do
123
Active Member
It's better to temporarily cast aside honor because if it is used in the way you guys think it should be, humanity will be enslaved. Do you not understand?
This isn't about achieving false-peace. It's about winning. You're saying you'd rather humanity go enslaved because the Stormcloaks wanted to individually die with honor? You're saying citizens should live their lives in endless servitude to elves, because of a cultural belief?
Other races have honor too, you know. It's not just Nords. Even the Altmer do. But the Altmer are civilized and thoughtful enough to the point they won't endanger generations to come to fit their own individual wish.
123
Active Member
Okay, well I'm here to argue over what is best for Skyrim, not who I think is cooler.
Docta Corvina
Well-Known Member
There's little disputing that "honor" is very important to many and perhaps most Nords, though not all. The divergence and contention comes in how half the Nords fighting in the civil war are defining and construing it, as opposed to the other half. Rikke and Hadvar represent those Nords who define honor as loyalty to the Empire, doing what they see as right by not only Skyrim but all of Tamriel, and biding time and resources in preparation for the Great War: Episode II. Ulfric and Galmar and others define honor in a different way, deciding that there is no use in waiting things out, in enduring, and that it's their obligation to avenge what they see as an unforgivable betrayal.
Both sides have their concepts of honor and what constitutes it. The great tragedy is that neighbors, family members, old friends, Great War vets and the like have to destroy one another now because of Thalmor designs.
Both sides have their concepts of honor and what constitutes it. The great tragedy is that neighbors, family members, old friends, Great War vets and the like have to destroy one another now because of Thalmor designs.
FullmetalHeart20
Well-Known Member
Survival. That's the only thing that matters. Even with the Stormcloack rebellion, accepting the treaty may ave gotten more people out of that war alive then if they kept fighting. I'm not sure of this, of course, but with how ad things were, it seems likely.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
I was simply showing you just how dire the situation is with the Empire. Under pressure they cave in. They "surrender". Rikke was the only one that truly acted professionally, and I give her credit for doing exactly that. She said it herself that Tullius has given up, but she hasn't.
Compare the endings.
Battle for solitude:
Ulfric: "Secure the door."
Galmar: "Already done."
Rikke: "Ulfric. Stop."
Ulfric: "Stop what? Taking Skyrim back from those who'd leave her to rot?"
Rikke: "You're wrong. Ulfric. We need the Empire. Without it Skyrim will assuredly fall to the Dominion."
Galmar: "You were there with us. You saw it. The day the Empire signed that damn treaty was the day the Empire died."
Ulfric: "The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion."
Rikke: "You're a damn fool."
Galmar: "Stand aside woman. We've come for the General."
Rikke: "He has given up. But I have not."
Ulfric: "Rikke. Go. You're free to leave." (Ulfric actually doesn't want to kill her in spite of her being on the side of the enemy)
Rikke: "I'm also free to stay and fight for what I believe in."
Ulfric: "You're also free to die for it."
Rikke: "This is what you wanted? Shield brothers and sisters killing each other? Families torn apart? This is the Skyrim you want?!"
Galmar: "Damnit woman, stand aside."
Rikke: "That's not the Skyrim I want to live in."
Ulfric: "Rikke. You don't have to do this."
Rikke: "You've left me no choice... Talos preserve us."
(Fight begins)
Ulfric: "This is it for you. Any last words before I send you to Oblivion?"
Tullius: "You realize this is exactly what they wanted."
Galmar: "What who wanted?"
Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."
Ulfric: "It's a little more than a rebellion, don't you think?"
Galmar: "Heh."
Tullius: "We aren't the bad guys you know."
Ulfric: "Maybe not, but you certainly aren't the good guys."
Tullius: "Perhaps you're right. But then what does that make you?"
Ulfric: "You just said it yourself."
Galmar: "It makes us right."
Tullius: "And if I surrender?"
Ulfric: "The Empire I remember never surrendered."
Galmar: "That Empire is dead. And so are you."
Tullius: "So be it."
Galmar: "Just kill him and let's be done with it already."
Ulfric: "Come, Galmar. Where's your sense of the dramatic moment?"
Galmar: "By the gods! If it's a good ending to some damn story you're after - perhaps the Dragonborn should be the one to do it."
Ulfric: "Good point."
Battle of Windhelm
Tullius: "Secure the door."
Rikke: "Already done, sir."
Tullius: "Ulfric Stormcloak! You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, the assassination of King Torygg, and high treason against the Empire. It's over."
Galmar: "Not while I'm still breathing, it's not."
Rikke: "Step aside Galmar. We're here to accept Ulfric's surrender."
Ulfric: "I'll never surrender Skyrim into the hands of a corrupt and dying Empire."
Rikke: "Skyrim doesn't belong to you, Ulfric."
Ulfric: "No... But I belong to her."
Tullius: "Enough! You are traitors and will die traitors' deaths. Stand down and face public execution, or advance and face summary execution by my hands. It matters little to me. Either way I'll be sending your heads back to Cyrodiil." (The Empire showing their violent nature by wanting to desecrate dead bodies for their sick pleasure, and entertainment)
Galmar: "Well? What are we waiting for?"
(Fight begins)
Tullius: "Well Ulfric, you can't escape from me this time. Any last requests before I send you to... to wherever you people go when you die."
Rikke: "Sovngarde... sir."
Tullius: "Right. Well?"
Ulfric: "Let the Dragonborn be the one to do it. It'll make for a better song."
Tullius: "Song or not, I just want it done."
123
Active Member
You just showed us firsthand that Ulfric refuses to even listen to the voice of reason. Tullius told him how the Dominion had set this up, yet all he could get from it was that Tullius had somehow insulted his cause. Even at the dragon peace-talk, he had to let his ego get in the way. He's funny.
FullmetalHeart20
Well-Known Member
I said that a proven afterlife helps the Stormcloack philosophy. However, there's a line between courage and foolish haste. I'm sure the gods would value swallowing their pride until they have a realistic chance against the Thalmer just as much as rushing into an uncertain battle.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
Tullius had the power, with this kind of information regarding to the Thalmor setting this war up, to temporary stop this war, and to make temporary alliances with both parties to deal with the Dominion. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Tullius failed again.
Tullius failed again.
Janus3003
Skyrim Marriage Counselor
Can't wait for the Dark Brotherhood peeps to teach us about morality.
Actually, it's known that Nords can't handle pressure at all. Lokir (a Nord) tried to run from his death. We also know that Imperials are all gentle priests (the Moth dude in Dawnguard), all Redguards are smarmy jerkholes (Nazeem), all Khajiit have cryptic words of wisdom (M'aiq), all High Elves would get along fine living in Windhelm...
FullmetalHeart20
Well-Known Member
What I heard there was Rikke attempting to reason with them.
Rikke: "This is what you wanted? Shield brothers and sisters killing each other? Families torn apart? This is the Skyrim you want?!"
Galmar's response?
Galmar: "Damnit woman, stand aside."
They clearly refuse to even acknowledge reason, and ignore being told point blank that this rebellion of theirs helps the Dominion. Yo know, those guys Ulfric's supposed to be angery at?
Also, putting your favorite lines in bold doesn't change the possibility that they are simply delusions of grandeur. If the Stormcloacks have so little that it takes a dovahkiin to turn the tide against the Empire how will the face the ones who hurt them? And please remember Tullius really hates this guy, and Nords aren't right for chopping heads just because they do it in proper combat.
PrisonerLizzie
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, a great deal of the people arguing for the Stormcloaks don't know much about lore
Neither does my character, she woke up in a cart about to get beheaded by the Imperials and was saved by a dragon and a Stormcloak. However between playing the game when I have time to read up I'm playing catch up. What can I say I have a life outside of Skyrim and do this in my downtime, but I still have opinions.
You don't know what happened in the great war, you don't know that multiple races fought in it, not just Nords, you don't know that the WGC is what saved humanity from being enslaved
You could be helpful and provide us with information on the Great War, but yeah that was painful to do that search. I can see how ranting about it was much more satisfying.
you don't know that the WGC is what saved humanity from being enslaved
The WGC saving humanity from being enslaved is debatable. It seems to have only postponed it for awhile.
Ulfric Stormcloak's actions will sever any relationship with foreign nations
I've addressed this with you before, foreign politics being what they are there is no way to speculate what may or may not happen once Ulfric is High King or what his abilities or the abilities of his emissaries will be.
you don't know that 'honor' isn't a fair reason
And you still have not convinced me of why this is so. All you have said is cast your values aside for a temporary solution.