Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[azali100]

you know poor people in the real world have no problem getting around Just saying.

lolwut?

Sorry I didn't know we were talking about modern time poor people with minimum wage, welfare benefits, mass transit, affordable cars, and a constitutional democracy to live under. Somehow I got confused and assumed we were talking about a Medieval style society ruled by a monarchy where the best non-magical transportation is a horse and the kings can do as they please...

My bad.

 

[Raijin]

And Riften doesn't have the same exact problem? They're originally Stormcloak controlled. Where are Ulfric's worries in that Hold? Also, you're suggesting that the Dunmer have enough gold to buy a house outside the Grey Wuarter. Don't like them spreading their 'filth' through the Stormcloak capital? You're just grasping at straws to validate a flawed idea. You should use this creativity to adjust your perception of the situation. You're ideas are flawed. Your reasoning is flawed. You are making a fool of yourself online. Sorry if I sounded like Dagmar, but you need to hear this.

Skyrim is far from perfect. Every hold has their own set of problems. Riften has plenty of problems, but the fact is It's both Dunmer and Argonian friendly. Unfortunately Skyrim isn't friendly with the poor (Even with war veterans). That's the fact of life. Theirs no such thing as welfair or governmental assistance. If you're poor you live in filth.

And as far as me making a fool out of myself online... aren't we all guilty? You included? Everyone who's participating on this thread are fools for making a big deal over a fictional world of the Elders Scrolls. Don't sit here telling me that I'm making a fool out of myself when you're doing a pretty good damn job making a fool out of yourself by taking this fictional politics seriously. Honestly the Dunmers aren't real... their fictional. Why should I view them as real people? Get a fluffing grip over yourself. I'm sure Dagmar can agree with me on that.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Skyrim is far from perfect. Every hold has their own set of problems. Riften has plenty of problems, but the fact is It's both Dunmer and Argonian friendly. Unfortunately Skyrim isn't friendly with the poor (Even with war veterans). That's the fact of life. Theirs no such thing as welfair or governmental assistance. If you're poor you live in filth.

And as far as me making a fool out of myself online... aren't we all guilty? You included? Everyone who's participating on this thread are fools for making a big deal over a fictional world of the Elders Scrolls. Don't sit here telling me that I'm making a fool out of myself when you're doing a pretty good damn job making a fool out of yourself by taking this fictional politics seriously. Honestly the Dunmers aren't real... their fictional. Why should I view them as real people? Get a f***ing grip over yourself. I'm sure Dagmar can agree with me on that.

I was actually talking about the stuff you write. We could be talking about My Little Pony, and I would seriously be upset that this is how your mind works. That you're the type who blames the victim is evident, despite the situation being fictional. I think what gets to me the most, however, is that this is how you think about real life.
Don't suggest I don't have a grip on reality.

 

[Raijin]

I was actually talking about the stuff you write. We could be talking about My Little Pony, and I would seriously be upset that this is how your mind works. That you're the type who blames the victim is evident, despite the situation being fictional. I think what gets to me the most, however, is that this is how you think about real life.
Don't suggest I don't have a grip on reality.

Dude why are you getting so emotional over what I post here? You don't know me in RL yet you assume that everything that I post on this thread reflects what I think about in the real world.

Jersey Dagmar and I have different type of opinions on this particular thread, but amazingly enough we both have same opinion regarding to RL politics base on my thread The "I hate Mitt Romney" thread | Skyrim Forums and Romney supporters are sore losers | Skyrim Forums. If you want to get to know me go to The Lobby, not here.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Dude why are you getting so emotional over what I post here? You don't know me in RL yet you assume that everything that I post on this thread reflects what I think about in the real world.

Jersey Dagmar and I have different type of opinions on this particular thread, but amazingly enough we both have same opinion regarding to RL politics base on my thread The "I hate Mitt Romney" thread | Skyrim Forums and Romney supporters are sore losers | Skyrim Forums. If you want to get to know me go to The Lobby, not here.

Unless you're attitude comes from its fictional nature, this is genually how you think of minorities. That frustrates me.

 

[Raijin]

Unless you're attitude comes from its fictional nature, this is genually how you think of minorities. That frustrates me.

Dunmer's aren't real, and so I don't treat them as human beings. They don't have emotions or anything else. They're scripted with paid actors giving them a voice.

Another way to get to know me is through the shoutbox I hope to see you there

Docta Corvina (Empire supporter) and I (Stormcloak supporter) actually get a long quite well in spite of our difference in the civil war No need to hate.

Here's some friendly mead, my friend

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

I think I see body parts in the background Mr. Vampire.

 

[Crooksin]

What this asshole fail to realize is that one of the nord women that got murdered was a nord named Susanna the Wicked. She was steering up business with this ass by telling people in Candlehearth: "You didn't hear it from me, but if you want a real drink, try the Cornerclub in the Gray Quarter."

When I hear garbage coming out of the mouths of the Dark elves I do become deaf ears when they complain about their living condition. The only half way decent Dunmers living in Windhelm are Belyn Hlaalu and Idesa Sadri. The rest are trash, and I refuse to show pity for them.

If you ask Rolff why he hates the Dunmers so much he tells you "They're parasites. They're living in our city, under our protection, but what do they do for us? Nothing! I know the High King invited them here, but he didn't ask me or anyone else first. Maybe he should have."

That is a pretty valid statement. Perhabsa if they shared some of their weight then maybe they would be treated with respect. Respect is earned... well for me that is.

My mother use to tell me back when she was live that if I had nothing nice to say then don't say it at all. Yes I have emotions. I cry, I get angry, sad, hurt,etc but it doesn't give me the right to say hurtful things to others. Instead of using harmful words I simply walk away, and get some air into my lungs by using breathing exercises to clean my mind up with negative feelings.

Your responses are so filled with contradiction and hypocrisy, I find it hard to even read this thread anymore.

 

[Dagmar]

Like I said countless of times theirs no room for the Dunmer to live other than the G.Q base on the game settings. You still haven't provided me with a blueprint with with an exact measurements in square meters that I can go on. You still haven't told me other houses that are up for sale other than the one that the Dragonborn gets, and then theirs the question of who will be getting the house that the butcher use to own.

I don't have to answer any of these questions because they have nothing to do with the right to live outside of the Gray Quarter and therefore don't explain why Ulfric won't at least give the Dunmer the legal right to live outside the Gray Quarter even if as a practical matter there's nowhere else for them to go. In addition, in order for you to truly believe this has any relevance then you also must believe that the entire ranks of the Stormcloaks are less than a hundred as are the Imperial Legion's in Skyrim and the largest cities in Skyrim have less than 5 dozen residents, and the entire province of Skyrim is populated by less than a thousand people because that's the literal Skyrim presented to you by the game's scaling too ensure the game is playable on game consoles and low end PCs. Most players are a little more insightful about the fact that what the game presents to you merely represents a small portion of what's supposed to be exponentially larger in scale and numbers, which is why in the Skyrim they envision and Bethesda envisions, there are actually thousands of Stormcloaks and thousands of Imperial Legionnaires, hundreds of thousands of people in Skyrim and the cities are far larger than presented physically in the game.

Also owning a home isn't a right but a privilege in Skyrim. You must preform a task that benefits the holds.

Your character is literally the only one who has to perform tasks to earn the right to buy a home (which is actually kind of silly if you think too much about it so let's not ). It's a bit nuts to think that any of the other residents of any capital city had to do anything even remotely close to what you had to do to be allowed to purchase a home in the city if for no other reason than that they would be killed trying to do most of the things you do.

Let me ask you this question. If Ulfric allowed the Dunmer to live wherever they want in his hold.. Where are they suppose to go once they move out of the G.Q?

There's nothing in the game that indicates that the Dunmer aren't free to move elsewhere in Eastmarch. If you meant where in Windhelm we've already gone over that above but let's answer it anyway with another question. If there's nowhere else for them to move how does that prevent him from rescinding the segregation law? The answer is it doesn't.

Dunmers came to Windhelm... Windhelm didn't go to the Dunmers... like I said. They accepted their living arrangements because they wanted to live in Windhelm, and not anywhere else where.

While this is true it does absolutely nothing to refute the fact that they are not allowed to live anywhere but in the Gray Quarter if they want to live in Windhelm. Does this mean you've finally accepted that fact which is presented to you by the game content and lore?

 

[Hargood]

Despite these arguments of Ulfric's character..

...I'm starting to rethink my position. Even though I have always been an Imperial since Morrowind, and I honor the Septim Empire and all that they have done... I REALLY don't want to be a Vessel for the Thalmor's Globalist New World Order.

 

[TMMelo]

you are not a nord so go on empire

​

 

[Pronged Pickle]

The only question to me involving the Imperial vs. Stormcloak debate is "Are the Stormcloaks able to defend Skyrim if the Aldmeri Dominion were to invade?" This is mainly because I believe their cause is just, and Ulfric really isn't very bad a person. He seems slightly power-hungry, but he doesn't deserve all the criticism he gets, from "racist" to "power-hungry."

Anyway, I do believe the Stormcloaks would be able to defend themselves so therefore, I side with the Stormcloaks.

 

[Raijin]

Despite these arguments of Ulfric's character..

...I'm starting to rethink my position. Even though I have always been an Imperial since Morrowind, and I honor the Septim Empire and all that they have done... I REALLY don't want to be a Vessel for the Thalmor's Globalist New World Order.

Their would be no such thing as the Stormcloak rebellion if the Septim Empire was still very much alive. Ulfric isn't against the Empire, just disgusted of what the Empire became. Nothing could be farther from the truth from what came out of the mouth of Galmar when he told Rikke "You were there with us. You saw it. The day the Empire signed that damn treaty was the day the Empire died."

Emperer Titus Mede II put shame to the Empire and therefour he not only lost hammerfell, but in the process of losing Skyrim over his insolence.

 

[Raijin]

I don't have to answer any of these questions because they have nothing to do with the right to live outside of the Gray Quarter and therefore don't explain why Ulfric won't at least give the Dunmer the legal right to live outside the Gray Quarter even if as a practical matter there's nowhere else for them to go. In addition, in order for you to truly believe this has any relevance then you also must believe that the entire ranks of the Stormcloaks are less than a hundred as are the Imperial Legion's in Skyrim and the largest cities in Skyrim have less than 5 dozen residents, and the entire province of Skyrim is populated by less than a thousand people because that's the literal Skyrim presented to you by the game's scaling too ensure the game is playable on game consoles and low end PCs. Most players are a little more insightful about the fact that what the game presents to you merely represents a small portion of what's supposed to be exponentially larger in scale and numbers, which is why in the Skyrim they envision and Bethesda envisions, there are actually thousands of Stormcloaks and thousands of Imperial Legionnaires, hundreds of thousands of people in Skyrim and the cities are far larger than presented physically in the game.

While it may not be in good practice as far as Ulfric status of being the Jarl he has more important thing to do then to give the Dunmer rights to live outside the GQ. Perhaps if the Dunmer contributed to the cause then the process of waiting would probably be shorten. Why would Ulfric sell them quality mansions without earning it? And as far as there's no place else where for them is simply not true. I stated many times that theirs Riften. I honestly don't want to get too involved in the math calculations on how many Stormcloaks and Imperials are in Skyrim. The fact is after the Civil war under the Stormcloaks they had enough men to drive the many thigh elves out of Skyrim. You no longer see Thalmor on the roads. The fact to the matter is when Bethesda finally releases the expansion version of the next great war against the Thalmor whatever team you're on will win. It's just that obvious.

Your character is literally the only one who has to perform tasks to earn the right to buy a home (which is actually kind of silly if you think too much about it so let's not ). It's a bit nuts to think that any of the other residents of any capital city had to do anything even remotely close to what you had to do to be allowed to purchase a home in the city if for no other reason than that they would be killed trying to do most of the things you do.

Really? My character is widely known as the Dragonborn... savor of mankind from the world eater, and he still has to perform tasks to earn the right to buy a home, eh? While the rest of the residents don't remotely do the kind of things that we have to do to buy homes. That's not right. The Jarls of each hold (Ulfric included) are all scumbags... even that Jarl of Whiterun that everyone so happens to love so much.

There's nothing in the game that indicates that the Dunmer aren't free to move elsewhere in Eastmarch. If you meant where in Windhelm we've already gone over that above but let's answer it anyway with another question. If there's nowhere else for them to move how does that prevent him from rescinding the segregation law? The answer is it doesn't.

While this is true it does absolutely nothing to refute the fact that they are not allowed to live anywhere but in the Gray Quarter if they want to live in Windhelm. Does this mean you've finally accepted that fact which is presented to you by the game content and lore?

In Eastmarch they can move to places like Darkwater Crossing (Policed by Stormcloak guards) and Kynesgrove (policed by Stormcloak guards) They have a choice, but they continue to live in Windhelm where they're their not really welcomed by the residents. Sorry but I still have no pity for them.

 

[WilyCrow]

I went for Stormcloaks, but didn't give it nearly as much thought as some people on here!

 

[Doctor Langstrom]

Their would be no such thing as the Stormcloak rebellion if the Septim Empire was still very much alive. Ulfric isn't against the Empire, just disgusted of what the Empire became. Nothing could be farther from the truth from what came out of the mouth of Galmar when he told Rikke "You were there with us. You saw it. The day the Empire signed that damn treaty was the day the Empire died."

Emperer Titus Mede II put shame to the Empire and therefour he not only lost hammerfell, but in the process of losing Skyrim over his insolence.

I doubt the Emperor signed it without any thought. Have you ever been in a position of power and had to make a difficult decision like that? I'm going to answer it for you. No. It's easy to be a commoner and sit back and judge a leader, but for once, see it from their perspective. You might learn something. For your sake, I hope you do.

 

[Ozan]

I doubt the Emperor signed it without any thought. Have you ever been in a position of power and had to make a difficult decision like that? I'm going to answer it for you. No. It's easy to be a commoner and sit back and judge a leader, but for once, see it from their perspective. You might learn something. For your sake, I hope you do.

The Colovian Emperor could have set up a government in exile. Ozan believes only Colovian Cyrodiil was taken, not the Nord sands of Skyrim. After 30 years, Colovians allowed their people to be ruled and oppressed by foreigners? This only proved the man was poor in strategy, despite being strong in character. A shame that though character is preferred in a leader, such is useless in war. He lacks cunning and tenacity. For this, Khajiit pities those who suffer under the Colovian's regime.

 

[Raijin]

I doubt the Emperor signed it without any thought. Have you ever been in a position of power and had to make a difficult decision like that? I'm going to answer it for you. No. It's easy to be a commoner and sit back and judge a leader, but for once, see it from their perspective. You might learn something. For your sake, I hope you do.

4E 171 — The Great War begins with armies from the Aldmeri Dominion invading the Imperial provinces of Hammerfell and Cyrodiil.

• After Titus II rejects an ultimatum to make massive concessions to the Thalmor, Aldmeri armies invade. An army led by Thalmor general Lord Naarifin emerges from hidden camps in northern Elsweyr and assaults southern Cyrodiil, flanking Imperial defenses along the Valenwood border. Leyawiin falls to the invaders, and Bravil is surrounded and besieged. Simultaneously, an army under Lady Arannelya crosses western Cyrodiil, bypassing Anvil and Kvatch and entering Hammerfell. This army is joined by smaller forces landing on Hammerfell's coast. Imperial troops are forced into retreat across the Alik'r Desert.

4E 174 — The Imperial City is sacked by Aldmeri forces. (Aldmeri Dominion 1 point Empire 0 )

• Titus II flees north from the city, smashing through the surrounding Aldmeri forces with his main army and linking up with reinforcements heading south from Skyrim under General Jonna. The Imperial City falls to the invaders. The Imperial Palace is burned, White-Gold Tower is looted, and the Aldmeri commit many atrocities against the defenseless populace.

4E 175 — The Battle of the Red Ring results in the complete destruction of the main Aldmeri force in Cyrodiil, a victory for the Empire precipitating the end of the Great War. ( Aldmeri Dominion 1 points Empire 1 point)

• The Imperial City is retaken and Titus II's decision to withdraw from it the previous year is vindicated. Despite this resounding victory, however, the Empire is exhausted and unable to continue the war. Realizing this, Titus II seeks to negotiate with the Aldmeri Dominion to end the war.

An addition the Thalmor General, Lord Naarifin, was captured during the Battle of the Red Ring and hanged from the White Gold Tower for thirty-three days.
4E 175 — The Great War ends with the White-Gold Concordat. (Aldmeri Dominion 2 points Empire 1)

• The peace treaty between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion gives the Thalmor free rein to stamp out the worship of Talos throughout the Empire, and cedes a large section of southern Hammerfell. Critics note that these terms are almost identical to the ultimatum that Titus II rejected at the start of the war.

4E 175 — Hammerfell leaves the Empire after rejecting the White-Gold Concordat.

• Titus II renounces Hammerfell as a province of the Empire to preserve the treaty after the Redguards oppose ceding their lands. The Redguards see this as a betrayal, and a lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire is sown to the delight of the Thalmor. Hammerfell continues to war with the Aldmeri Dominion for the next five years.

Not everyone was willing to give up the war against the Aldmeri Dominion. Mede made a very bad decision to surrender to the Thalmor.

 

[Raijin]

The Fourth Era began without a Dragonborn to lead the Empire, paving the way for the Mede Dynasty to take over in 4E 17. In the second century, the Blades realized that the Thalmor posed a great threat to the Empire, and to any Dragonborn should they return. The Great War between humans and elves began in 4E 171, when a Thalmor emissary demanded the surrender of the Empire, and when they refused, dumped the heads of 100 Blades agents who had been operating within the Aldmeri Dominion on the floor, along with the demand that the Blades be disbanded. Later, the truce known as the White-Gold Concordat, signed by Emperor Titus Mede II in 4E 175, decreed that the Blades be disbanded. Furthermore, the Thalmor were given free rein to hunt down Talos worshippers, a privilege they employed to eliminate the surviving Blades one by one. Massacres occurred at the main Blades fortresses, such as Cloud Ruler Temple. By 4E 200, only a handful of Blades remained on Tamriel, with the Penitus Oculatus having replaced them as the Emperor's bodyguards. - Lore:Blades - UESPWiki

Not only did that asshole Emperor Mede screwed with his own people over this treaty, but also screwed over his own bodyguards to which they've been hunted down like rapid dogs by the Thalmor. This is what you get for risking your life to serve the Emperor. Yeah Tullius tell me more about this hilarious oath:

"Upon my honor I do swear undying loyalty to the Emperor, Titus Mede II, and unwavering obedience to the officers of his great Empire. May those above judge me, and those below take me, if I fail in my duty. Long live the Emperor! Long live the Empire!" Yeah only to get fluffed by my Emperor that I served loyalty to.

I can't help but to feel Ulfric and Galmars anger.

Ulfric stormcloaks son laughs as Ulfric tears the White-Gold Concordat agreement including General Tullius cheesy oath.

 

[Dagmar]

While it may not be in good practice as far as Ulfric status of being the Jarl he has more important thing to do then to give the Dunmer rights to live outside the GQ.

No he doesn't. Notwithstanding that your making him out to be a Jarl that's incapable governing his people properly while waging a military campaign (I don't believe he's that incompetent) which will make him a bad leader for an independent Skyrim since he'd be even less capable of governing the entire Kingdom while running a military campaign against the Aldmeri Dominion (something else I don't think he could or would do) this presumes that rescinding the law would delay or distract him from his war campaign when it's simply not so. It takes mere minutes of his time to declare an edict rescinding a law. He's the Jarl of Eastmarch and as such his word is beyond contestation. If he took a few minutes to say it and his Steward recorded it and published it throughout Windhelm the law would be so. It's that simple.

Why would Ulfric sell them quality mansions without earning it?

No one else is "earning" it. Why should they? You're presumption that they have to do more than others to purchase a home is an open admission that they are treated unequally based solely on their race.

And as far as there's no place else where for them is simply not true. I stated many times that theirs Riften.

My point wasn't that they had nowhere else to go. First I was referring to within Windhelm so your reference to Riften isn't applicable. More importantly that wasn't even the premise of the statement. It was to distinguish right versus opportunity to exercise that right. He can give them the right so that when there's an opportunity to exercise it they may do so. There's no reason not to grant them that right unless he doesn't believe they're entitled to it and there's no objective reason for him not to extend the same right that he extends to every other race within the city (Nord, Altmer, or Breton) other than that because they are Dunmer, i.e. because of their race.

I honestly don't want to get too involved in the math calculations on how many Stormcloaks and Imperials are in Skyrim.

You honestly don't have to if you're going to be such a literalist about what the game presents to you in terms of scaling. If you're going to be consistent with insisting that the only homes available in Windhelm are those you can actually see and/or explore, then for you the world of Skyrim is composed of a Stormcloak army and Imperial Legion of less than a hundred each, capital cities populated by only around 5 dozen residents, and a province that is populated by less than a thousand people. You live in a Skyrim that is smaller than the island of Manhattan and less populous than any large town in the United States.

The fact is after the Civil war under the Stormcloaks they had enough men to drive the many thigh elves out of Skyrim.

***snickers and points*** "thigh" elves Yep, and in your Skyrim they only did it with a few dozen men (the entire Stormcloak army!!!) Not surprising since in your Skyrim there weren't even that many Thalmor in the first place.

They have a choice, but they continue to live in Windhelm where they're their not really welcomed by the residents.

First of all the Nords of Windhelm are hardly unanimous in the way they view and treat the Dunmer. I've acknowledged that life isn't so bad for the Dunmer that moving makes sense for most. More importantly it's completely irrelevant to the fact that there is enforced segregation in Windhelm, that it's enforced by Ulfric, and that is why he is on some level a racist. If that doesn't bother your character it's not as big a deal as some people are trying to make it. You don't have to let one characteristic of Ufric's personality define your character especially if you chose to join the Stormcloaks for entirely different reasons but that doesn't mean it's not part of who he is.