Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Mookie]

I've chosen to go with the Empire because only united will they stand a chance against the Dominion, and while I don't really feel any loyality for th Emperor or Cyrodiil, I feel enough hatred for the Thalmor to join those who might even stand a chance against them, which does not count for the Stormcloaks in my subjective view.
Thu'um or not, Ulfric can't win with a band of axe-swinging warriors against a nation of mages and masters of the arcane. After all he needs to get in reach to use his shout to even get an enemy killed, but he won't come very far if the Dominion's ships get them down. Who knows, if he'd go for Alinor he'd probably get stuck at the southern end of Cyrodiil or at Northern Valenwood, since the only proper "streets" there were made and are therefore well guarded by the Thalmor troops.

Skyrim is just too far away from Alinor to do some damage, and they can't just stay out of the fight anymore. Imperials and Nords are either together in this or the Aldmeri Dominion will have an easy time playing "Divide and Conquer", picking off the other nations one by one.

Though, I didn't like killing the Stormcloaks. Every soldier killed is a possible Legion member killed as well, just in the name of pride. No, it was not right to have Ulfric and his buddies thrown into prison for demanding their payment; open worship of Talos, but that was the Jarl's fault and the Empire had little choice due to the damned Concordat. But seriously? Even high ranking Legion members (Rikke, *cough cough) are clearly Talos worshippers, and that guy from Riverwood also said that before Ulfric everyone still had his little Talos shrine at home because the Thalmor weren't there to control them.
And then Ulfric started this rebellion. Sorry, but for me it appears that Ulfric too is responsible for every Nord who got abducted, tortured and killed by the Thalmor.
Fighting for your right is one thing, but provoking is just unnecessary. v.v

Tamriel was once inhabited solely by elves. A band of men came and defeated them. A band of brutes in loincloths and iron armor took down a continent of magic users. It is about the will to do so, the inspiration, the drive behind an idea. Stormcloaks have that. Empire doesnt. They can loudmouth as much as they want, but after 25 years of peace, they are unable to do anything except line their borders. No massive war preparations, no nothing. Imperial generals can be ordered anywhere like dogs, by the thalmor, imperial legion is used as a police force for thalmor and their oposition. Genocides are commited in Valenwood and other places under Thalmor, empire shuts their mouth. Their founder, and God was outlawed and they keep quiet. The culture is dying out being replaced by subservient behaviour.
And for a milionth time, worshiping in secret is not the same as worshiping freely.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

Rikke: "This is what you wanted? Shield brothers and sisters killing each other? Families torn apart? This is the Skyrim you want?!"

Does she even know the history of her own Empire? Or was she hit in the head too many times that she simply forgot?
What exactly is it that you believe Rikke has forgotten?
Granted Ulfric Stormcloak caused the Civil war, but Emperor Titus Mede II provoked the GREAT war which lead the the deaths of far more soldiers and citizens because he decided to not heed to what his Generals were telling him at the time.
Titus Mede had no other choice but to act:On the 30th of Frostfall, 4E 171, the Aldmeri Dominion sent an ambassador to the Imperial City with a gift in a covered cart and an ultimatum for the new Emperor. The long list of demands included staggering tributes, disbandment of the Blades, outlawing the worship of Talos, and ceding large sections of Hammerfell to the Dominion. Despite the warnings of his generals of the Empire's military weakness, Emperor Titus Mede II rejected the ultimatum. The Thalmor ambassador upended the cart, spilling over a hundred heads on the floor: every Blades agent in Summerset and Valenwood. And so began the Great War which would consume the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion for the next five years.
What kind of leader would have just agreed to this rubbish. Imagine the leader of your country just bending over and taking it from some ambassador of a foreign land. What would you honestly think of him then? These demands were rubbish and you know it. Not to mention the fallout it would have created with his own people.

I am sorry but he accepted them all.
That is what makes people furios.
The only really wrecked place was Cirodil, there were loads of untoched provinces, hammerfell was abandoned, etc...

No, incorrect. At the time he accepted none of these bogus demands hence the Great War. I agree in part with you that signing the White Gold Concordat may not have been the right decision by the Empire, but at least they fought the elves, before "bending knee to them".

 

[Mookie]

Rikke: "This is what you wanted? Shield brothers and sisters killing each other? Families torn apart? This is the Skyrim you want?!"

Does she even know the history of her own Empire? Or was she hit in the head too many times that she simply forgot?
What exactly is it that you believe Rikke has forgotten?
Granted Ulfric Stormcloak caused the Civil war, but Emperor Titus Mede II provoked the GREAT war which lead the the deaths of far more soldiers and citizens because he decided to not heed to what his Generals were telling him at the time.
Titus Mede had no other choice but to act:On the 30th of Frostfall, 4E 171, the Aldmeri Dominion sent an ambassador to the Imperial City with a gift in a covered cart and an ultimatum for the new Emperor. The long list of demands included staggering tributes, disbandment of the Blades, outlawing the worship of Talos, and ceding large sections of Hammerfell to the Dominion. Despite the warnings of his generals of the Empire's military weakness, Emperor Titus Mede II rejected the ultimatum. The Thalmor ambassador upended the cart, spilling over a hundred heads on the floor: every Blades agent in Summerset and Valenwood. And so began the Great War which would consume the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion for the next five years.
What kind of leader would have just agreed to this rubbish. Imagine the leader of your country just bending over and taking it from some ambassador of a foreign land. What would you honestly think of him then? These demands were rubbish and you know it. Not to mention the fallout it would have created with his own people.

I am sorry but he accepted them all.
That is what makes people furios.
The only really wrecked place was Cirodil, there were loads of untoched provinces, hammerfell was abandoned, etc...

No, incorrect. At the time he accepted none of these bogus demands hence the Great War. I agree in part with you that signing the White Gold Concordat may not have been the right decision by the Empire, but at least they fought the elves, before "bending knee to them".

Instead of loosing souther hammerfell they lost all of it, its no longer in the empire. They put themselves at the mercy of the thalmor who will eat the empire from inside via coruption of ambitious cirodilians. 25 years and nothing is done. For heavens sake hitler took germany from ruin to military superpower in 6 years, what is empire doing?

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Tamriel was once inhabited solely by elves. A band of men came and defeated them. A band of brutes in loincloths and iron armor took down a continent of magic users. It is about the will to do so, the inspiration, the drive behind an idea. Stormcloaks have that. Empire doesnt. They can loudmouth as much as they want, but after 25 years of peace, they are unable to do anything except line their borders. No massive war preparations, no nothing. Imperial generals can be ordered anywhere like dogs, by the thalmor, imperial legion is used as a police force for thalmor and their oposition. Genocides are commited in Valenwood and other places under Thalmor, empire shuts their mouth. Their founder, and God was outlawed and they keep quiet. The culture is dying out being replaced by subservient behaviour.
And for a milionth time, worshiping in secret is not the same as worshiping freely.

But the Atmorans didn't conquer all of Tamriel from them, only Skyrim. And the Snow Elves didn't expect their attack, they were caught off guard and since the Atmorans had as little mercy for their Civilian populace like they did when attacking Saarthal. Much more can't be said to this part of history though, since the informations given are small in number.

The problem is that they've allowed the Thalmor to enter Cyrodiil and monitor their every move.
What would be the point of making war preparations if as soon as their smelters would start warming up, the Thalmor would go home and report these movements?
And, above I said that I wasn't loyal to the Emperor for a reason; there's corruption (Erikur from Solitude shows that off quite nicely), there are naive people in high positions who don't really seem to think before starting anything of tactical importance (Jarl Elisif the Fair, also from Solitude) and even General Tullius seems to be growing into a submissive position when the word "Thalmor" is said out loud. Not very surprising though since the Thalmor can treat them like they want, it's almost like Ayleid 2.0.
But no, I don't even want to think about how the next war would pass if Skyrim became independent from the Empire. Without the Nords, the Legions strongest warriors, the Empire would be an easy target for the Dominion. And when the heart of Tamriel is conquered, nothing stands in their way...
The Empire needs proper leadership, that's for sure. But it's still a key asset, even the Thalmor have realised this. Don't think of Skyrim needing the Empire, but the Empire needing Skyrim.

And the worship part is purely a pride's issue, Hadrik Oaken-Heart has also realised this, though far too late in his case. Why do you have to run around in cities praising Talos? Why not meet in forests like the Talos cults do currently all over Skyrim? Talos gets his divine power from the faith people give him, open or not is not of importance.

~Rimfaxe

 

[Mookie]

Tamriel was once inhabited solely by elves. A band of men came and defeated them. A band of brutes in loincloths and iron armor took down a continent of magic users. It is about the will to do so, the inspiration, the drive behind an idea. Stormcloaks have that. Empire doesnt. They can loudmouth as much as they want, but after 25 years of peace, they are unable to do anything except line their borders. No massive war preparations, no nothing. Imperial generals can be ordered anywhere like dogs, by the thalmor, imperial legion is used as a police force for thalmor and their oposition. Genocides are commited in Valenwood and other places under Thalmor, empire shuts their mouth. Their founder, and God was outlawed and they keep quiet. The culture is dying out being replaced by subservient behaviour.
And for a milionth time, worshiping in secret is not the same as worshiping freely.

But the Atmorans didn't conquer all of Tamriel from them, only Skyrim. And the Snow Elves didn't expect their attack, they were caught off guard and since the Atmorans had as little mercy for their Civilian populace like they did when attacking Saarthal. Much more can't be said to this part of history though, since the informations given are small in number.

The problem is that they've allowed the Thalmor to enter Cyrodiil and monitor their every move.
What would be the point of making war preparations if as soon as their smelters would start warming up, the Thalmor would go home and report these movements?
And, above I said that I wasn't loyal to the Emperor for a reason; there's corruption (Erikur from Solitude shows that off quite nicely), there are naive people in high positions who don't really seem to think before starting anything of tactical importance (Jarl Elisif the Fair, also from Solitude) and even General Tullius seems to be growing into a submissive position when the word "Thalmor" is said out loud. Not very surprising though since the Thalmor can treat them like they want, it's almost like Ayleid 2.0.
But no, I don't even want to think about how the next war would pass if Skyrim became independent from the Empire. Without the Nords, the Legions strongest warriors, the Empire would be an easy target for the Dominion. And when the heart of Tamriel is conquered, nothing stands in their way...
The Empire needs proper leadership, that's for sure. But it's still a key asset, even the Thalmor have realised this. Don't think of Skyrim needing the Empire, but the Empire needing Skyrim.

And the worship part is purely a pride's issue, Hadrik Oaken-Heart has also realised this, though far too late in his case. Why do you have to run around in cities praising Talos? Why not meet in forests like the Talos cults do currently all over Skyrim? Talos gets his divine power from the faith people give him, open or not is not of importance.

~Rimfaxe

Empire cant prepare because of the Thalmor.
If it starts a new war will break out and they will get anihilated cause they are unprepared.
If they dont prepare they are at mercy of Thalmor who will attack them and they will loose. See a patern there? Empire is doomed in its curent state, and Skyrim with it.
Men would be better prepared if they follow the way of Hammerfell, its on its own at war. Independent men-kingdoms could help each other. Empire cant. Do you think Thalmor could walk around in Skyrim after Stormcloak victory, spying, or preventing armament?

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Empire cant prepare because of the Thalmor.
If it starts a new war will break out and they will get anihilated cause they are unprepared.
If they dont prepare they are at mercy of Thalmor who will attack them and they will loose. See a patern there? Empire is doomed in its curent state, and Skyrim with it.
Men would be better prepared if they follow the way of Hammerfell, its on its own at war. Independent men-kingdoms could help each other. Empire cant. Do you think Thalmor could walk around in Skyrim after Stormcloak victory, spying, or preventing armament?

That's point; in its current state.
What if, after the Emperor's death in case you follow the DB storyline, someone with backbone rises with clear dislike for the Thalmor? Or on the other hand, what if the Empire's remnants collapse following his death, and there's no Empire left that would need to be defeated?
The problem I have with Skyrim is that the "end" cannot be foreseen, giving players plenty of room to make own conclusions.
My favourite would be a one-man-war against the Dominion, they wouldn't stand a chance against my character anyway, especially not with Odahviing and Durnehviir on my side, and then become Emperor myself... but that would be too good to be true.
If Ulfric won the Civil War in Lore, managed to get some Stormcloak sympathists/Thalmor haters together in the Capital of Cyrodiil, manages to get Hammerfell on his side as well plus High Rock to march South...

That would be fairly damn epic.

To the part with indepentent man-kingdoms helping each other; how? Skyrim is cut off from Hammerfell because Cyrodiil is in the way; one can't even cross the border without getting caught at some point.
Or worse, what if the Thalmor declared Ulfrics' heretic actions as a reason for war against Skyrim alone? Troops from Alinor, Valenwood, Elsweyr marching North through Cyrodiil? At such a day I'm pretty sure even the Emperor would weep.

 

[Mookie]

Empire cant prepare because of the Thalmor.
If it starts a new war will break out and they will get anihilated cause they are unprepared.
If they dont prepare they are at mercy of Thalmor who will attack them and they will loose. See a patern there? Empire is doomed in its curent state, and Skyrim with it.
Men would be better prepared if they follow the way of Hammerfell, its on its own at war. Independent men-kingdoms could help each other. Empire cant. Do you think Thalmor could walk around in Skyrim after Stormcloak victory, spying, or preventing armament?

That's point; in its current state.
What if, after the Emperor's death in case you follow the DB storyline, someone with backbone rises with clear dislike for the Thalmor? Or on the other hand, what if the Empire's remnants collapse following his death, and there's no Empire left that would need to be defeated?
The problem I have with Skyrim is that the "end" cannot be foreseen, giving players plenty of room to make own conclusions.
My favourite would be a one-man-war against the Dominion, they wouldn't stand a chance against my character anyway, especially not with Odahviing and Durnehviir on my side, and then become Emperor myself... but that would be too good to be true.
If Ulfric won the Civil War in Lore, managed to get some Stormcloak sympathists/Thalmor haters together in the Capital of Cyrodiil, manages to get Hammerfell on his side as well plus High Rock to march South...

That would be fairly damn epic.

To the part with indepentent man-kingdoms helping each other; how? Skyrim is cut off from Hammerfell because Cyrodiil is in the way; one can't even cross the border without getting caught at some point.
Or worse, what if the Thalmor declared Ulfrics' heretic actions as a reason for war against Skyrim alone? Troops from Alinor, Valenwood, Elsweyr marching North through Cyrodiil? At such a day I'm pretty sure even the Emperor would weep.

What after his death someone with backbone...
I guess you dont understand the situation. Its imposible. How will he stand up? By raising armies and making weapons. Ooops, Thalmor would know that in an instant and guess what, a war would start with unready empire.
What if he doesnt have a spine. Well the war happens with unready empire. See something repeating. It cant get itself out of the situation.

Ulfric would help empire in the end if thalmor attacked after Skyrims independence. He isnt a madman. They are fighting against elves, not imperials or men.

As for Thalmor attacking Skyrim, from Sea its imposible, its called Sea of Ghosts for a reason. All those icebergs and then lowland, cliff surounded wet beaches unfit for landing a large force and hostile terrain and suroundings (dragons, trolls, wolves, sprigans......)

They would also have to face "the Nord tongues" which Ulfric will no doubt reinstate, and not even greybeards could stay neutral in that situation.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I've chosen to go with the Empire because only united will they stand a chance against the Dominion, and while I don't really feel any loyality for th Emperor or Cyrodiil, I feel enough hatred for the Thalmor to join those who might even stand a chance against them, which does not count for the Stormcloaks in my subjective view.
Thu'um or not, Ulfric can't win with a band of axe-swinging warriors against a nation of mages and masters of the arcane. After all he needs to get in reach to use his shout to even get an enemy killed, but he won't come very far if the Dominion's ships get them down. Who knows, if he'd go for Alinor he'd probably get stuck at the southern end of Cyrodiil or at Northern Valenwood, since the only proper "streets" there were made and are therefore well guarded by the Thalmor troops.

Skyrim is just too far away from Alinor to do some damage, and they can't just stay out of the fight anymore. Imperials and Nords are either together in this or the Aldmeri Dominion will have an easy time playing "Divide and Conquer", picking off the other nations one by one.

Though, I didn't like killing the Stormcloaks. Every soldier killed is a possible Legion member killed as well, just in the name of pride. No, it was not right to have Ulfric and his buddies thrown into prison for demanding their payment; open worship of Talos, but that was the Jarl's fault and the Empire had little choice due to the damned Concordat. But seriously? Even high ranking Legion members (Rikke, *cough cough) are clearly Talos worshippers, and that guy from Riverwood also said that before Ulfric everyone still had his little Talos shrine at home because the Thalmor weren't there to control them.
And then Ulfric started this rebellion. Sorry, but for me it appears that Ulfric too is responsible for every Nord who got abducted, tortured and killed by the Thalmor.
Fighting for your right is one thing, but provoking is just unnecessary. v.v

Tamriel was once inhabited solely by elves. A band of men came and defeated them. A band of brutes in loincloths and iron armor took down a continent of magic users. It is about the will to do so, the inspiration, the drive behind an idea. Stormcloaks have that. Empire doesnt. They can loudmouth as much as they want, but after 25 years of peace, they are unable to do anything except line their borders. No massive war preparations, no nothing. Imperial generals can be ordered anywhere like dogs, by the thalmor, imperial legion is used as a police force for thalmor and their oposition. Genocides are commited in Valenwood and other places under Thalmor, empire shuts their mouth. Their founder, and God was outlawed and they keep quiet. The culture is dying out being replaced by subservient behaviour.
And for a milionth time, worshiping in secret is not the same as worshiping freely.

Ancient Nords had a great many Mages, the Nords of old weren't magic fearing. It is only recently has magic been shunned and feared by the local Nords.

No massive war preparations? Deploying nearly the entire Imperial army along the Aldmeri Dominion's border isn't war preparations? The Thalmor do not have large amounts of power as they try let you believe, the Empire and Thalmor are not friends, both sides are preparing for war.

The Nine Gods of the Empire, created by the Empire. Way I see it, they can do whatever they like with their religion.

Tamriel was once inhabited solely by elves. A band of men came and defeated them. A band of brutes in loincloths and iron armor took down a continent of magic users. It is about the will to do so, the inspiration, the drive behind an idea. Stormcloaks have that. Empire doesnt. They can loudmouth as much as they want, but after 25 years of peace, they are unable to do anything except line their borders. No massive war preparations, no nothing. Imperial generals can be ordered anywhere like dogs, by the thalmor, imperial legion is used as a police force for thalmor and their oposition. Genocides are commited in Valenwood and other places under Thalmor, empire shuts their mouth. Their founder, and God was outlawed and they keep quiet. The culture is dying out being replaced by subservient behaviour.
And for a milionth time, worshiping in secret is not the same as worshiping freely.

But the Atmorans didn't conquer all of Tamriel from them, only Skyrim. And the Snow Elves didn't expect their attack, they were caught off guard and since the Atmorans had as little mercy for their Civilian populace like they did when attacking Saarthal. Much more can't be said to this part of history though, since the informations given are small in number.

The problem is that they've allowed the Thalmor to enter Cyrodiil and monitor their every move.
What would be the point of making war preparations if as soon as their smelters would start warming up, the Thalmor would go home and report these movements?
And, above I said that I wasn't loyal to the Emperor for a reason; there's corruption (Erikur from Solitude shows that off quite nicely), there are naive people in high positions who don't really seem to think before starting anything of tactical importance (Jarl Elisif the Fair, also from Solitude) and even General Tullius seems to be growing into a submissive position when the word "Thalmor" is said out loud. Not very surprising though since the Thalmor can treat them like they want, it's almost like Ayleid 2.0.
But no, I don't even want to think about how the next war would pass if Skyrim became independent from the Empire. Without the Nords, the Legions strongest warriors, the Empire would be an easy target for the Dominion. And when the heart of Tamriel is conquered, nothing stands in their way...
The Empire needs proper leadership, that's for sure. But it's still a key asset, even the Thalmor have realised this. Don't think of Skyrim needing the Empire, but the Empire needing Skyrim.

And the worship part is purely a pride's issue, Hadrik Oaken-Heart has also realised this, though far too late in his case. Why do you have to run around in cities praising Talos? Why not meet in forests like the Talos cults do currently all over Skyrim? Talos gets his divine power from the faith people give him, open or not is not of importance.

~Rimfaxe

Empire cant prepare because of the Thalmor.
If it starts a new war will break out and they will get anihilated cause they are unprepared.
If they dont prepare they are at mercy of Thalmor who will attack them and they will loose. See a patern there? Empire is doomed in its curent state, and Skyrim with it.
Men would be better prepared if they follow the way of Hammerfell, its on its own at war. Independent men-kingdoms could help each other. Empire cant. Do you think Thalmor could walk around in Skyrim after Stormcloak victory, spying, or preventing armament?

The Empire can prepare and the Thalmor know the Empire is preparing. The Imperial Legions being on their border would be a good sign the Empire is preparing for war. After nearly Thirty years the Thalmor are causing trouble in Skyrim, diverting the Empire's attention from Dominion lands back onto their own lands.

Tullius: "You realize this is exactly what they wanted."
Galmar: "What who wanted?"
Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."

"But Ulfric and his "Stormcloaks" are deluding themselves. If there's any hope of a long term victory against the Dominion, it's in the Empire. The rebels are only inflaming the tension and weakening the Empire by distracting it from its ultimate aim." - Legate Rikke

"There are those who still call themselves Stormcloaks, who continue to fight us, and bring misery to the people... but they are few in number. The ordinary citizen will be happy to get back to life as normal, to have their families return home. And they should enjoy it while they can... I suspect all of Tamriel will again be called to arms in the not too distant future." - Rikke

There is going to be a war with the Thalmor either way, now after Stormcloak victory it will take a very long time for Skyrim to be rebuilt, Ulfric's entire lifetime may be spent within Skyrim never leaving it. Skyrim could be ready for war, it may take a hundred years to fully rebuild. The Empire can attack the Aldmeri Dominion, they are preparing for war, they can't be surprised attacked since they're staring down the Dominion on the border.

The Empire was unprepared in the last Great War and the Empire won their battle. Neither side won the war, but the Aldmeri Dominion got devastated by the Imperial Legion. Their entire army that was in Cyrodiil was wiped out.

Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. - The Great War

Hammerfell currently has their own treaty with the Thalmor, they also wouldn't of even been able to keep fighting the Dominion had it not been for the Empire. The Empire weakened the Dominion enough for the Redguards to fight them. General Decianus had left the Dominion army in Hammerfell weakened and retreating full speed away from his veteran soldiers he left behind.

 

[Dagmar]

Bear of Markarth is a propaganda book on the same level with "Nords arise"
So I wouldnt take that seriously.
As I said once, if he killed everyone who didnt fight for him
A) there were nords in the city after the forsworn took it who couldnt fight for him
B) There are Bretons living in the city, the alchemist, workers etc.

You're ignorant misinformed notions about the lore in this area have already been soundly refuted. If you want to engage in personal fantasy contradicting lore and canon of the game to role play in your game that's you're prerogative but when you attempt to assert it as if it's anything else you only make yourself look misinformed and inept.

It is a book designed and created to attack Ulfrics personality and spread libel. So there is no need to talk about the civil war since what he is acused of doesnt hapen during civil war but before.

This is simply a fabrication of your mind. The book is a historical account of what happened at Markarth written by a scholar irrespective of your inability to recognize that fact. It's lore and canon for the facts to which it speaks because it stands completely uncontradicted by any other content in the Elder Scrolls universe. Lore content isn't arbitrarily rejected just because a player doesn't like what it says. If that absurd basis was applied we would have almost no lore at all for the games. If you want to pretend in your own roleplay that lore documents are false that's your prerogative but in a discussion about what actually is lore from the games such assertions are invalid.

Ulfric killed everyone in Markhart, Nords and Bretons, only those who fought with him remained.

First of all the people remaining in Markarth were not only those that fought with him. The book says anyone that didn't support him was executed not everyone. It's a criterion. It's evident when you read the passage that follows that it was an ongoing process and the reason why the Imperial Legion assented to his demand for open worship of Talos in the city was so that it could reclaim the city from his men and put an end to the mounting death toll each day as he executed more and more people.

Second of all that took place 24 years ago. The city has since largely repopulated.

It is imperial propaganda, created to be a book equivalent of "Nords arrise!" to mantain the discussion as a gray area.

It takes a truly distorted perspective to draw that kind of conclusion. It's not even remotely equivalent to Nords Arise! That book purports on its face to be a Stormcloak recruitment essay, i.e. a self-professed opinion piece, and not a historical accounting.

On top of that the few facts it observes are accurate, i.e. that High King Torygg accepted the terms of the White-Gold Concordat during his brief reign, the Aldmeri Dominion waged war with the races of men, Saarthal was sacked by the Falmer, and Ysgramor and his army of Companions returned to wage war on them and cast them out of Skyrim. Nothing in the book is libelous (for your edification slander is the term for oral defamation, libel is the term for written defamation) either so even if one were to accept your completely incorrect statement that the two books are in anyway similar in nature it still doesn't support the notion that the contents of The Bear of Markarth are in any way untrue.

It isnt a fabrication. A man is a Forsworn suporter. And he is expected to write an objective book about Ulfric who defeated his little friends?

The author isn't a Forsworn supporter. The fact that you would claim to the contrary is only a testament to your poor reading comprehension skills. Arrianus Arius is a scholar so when he begins his study of the Forsworn he does so with an open mind, which means he dispenses with any negative prejudices about them. However by the end of his study and the lore document The "Madmen" of the Reach it's clear that both assert and support many of the negative things reported in prior documents as accurate:

In time, I was able to create trust with many more natives in my search that corroborated the old woman's story. By chance, one of them arranged a meeting between myself and what I thought was an elder member of his village. I was shocked to find that I was led to a camp, filled with the animal skulls, severed heads, and still beating hearts that I had read about from the military reports back in the Imperial City. There, I met Cortoran, a Forsworn, who seemed amused at the prospect of me writing down his story. Which I quote in full below:
"You want to know who the Forsworn are? We are the people who must pillage our own land. Burn our own ground. We are the scourge of the Nords. The axe that falls in the dark. The scream before the gods claim your soul. We are the true sons and daughters of the Reach. The spirits and hags have lived here from the beginning, and they are on our side. Go back. Go back and tell your Empire that we will have our own kingdom again. And on that day, we will be the ones burying your dead in a land that is no longer yours."

There is nothing biased in his writings. You simply don't like aspects of what you read from them and are trying to distort them to support your transparently false claim that they aren't reliable as historical lore documents. Because your attempts are entirely dependent on those distortions you've failed.

IF you read the ongoing passage, yes you come up to that part which in detail describes slaughtering of anyone not suporting Ulfir (how quaint), and then all of a sudden city is full of people 20 years later, not just people who moved in as you claim, but older people, reachmen, suporters of Forsworn, Nepo etc..

This is more reading comprehension failure on your part. That's not the ongoing passage. It's the same passage intiially described in my post. The one that accurately points out that anyone is not the equivalent of everyone. Your lack of mastery over English is severely undermining your ability to understand what's been conveyed by me and the lore documents.

Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates.

This is followed by the passage:

So when a "grateful" Empire accepted Ulfric's victory and sent soldiers to re-establish the rule of law in the Reach, it was no surprise that he would demand to be allowed to worship Talos freely before the Legion could enter. With chaos running through the streets of Markarth and the reports of deaths rising every day, the Empire had no choice but to grant Ulfric and his men their worship.

Taken together this means that the execution of civilians by Ulfric was a gradual and onging process which the Imperial Legion was trying to end. The fact that you and even Drunkenmage didn't understand what the book is saying doesn't change the fact that this is what the book is depicting.

The fact that you would refer to the passage of time that spans well over 20 years as "all of a sudden" is truly LOLable. It's also another straw man, something you're largely dependent upon because you can't address the actual points made that totally undermine your weak arguments. The passage of time and repopulation of the city was an ancillary point. It's not and never was a claim to suport the premise that a every person in the city or even most people in the city who didn't support Ulfric's Nord militia had been executed because I clearly pointed out that Imperial Legion prevented that from happening. That does nothing to discount the fact that Ulfric had a significant number of civilians killed simply because they didn't support his Nord Militia.

I dont feel like repeating everything all over again.

There's no need to repeat falsehoods, distortions, and misinterpreations about the lore over and over again. You can stop anytime you like.

You can quote it as much as you want, its a book designed to tarnish Ulfrics name and justify imperial treachery.

It's no more a book designed to tarnish Ulfric's name than a book that gives an accounting of the genocidal massacres at Srebrenica and Žepa during the Yugoslav Wars is book designed to tarnish Ratko Mladić's name. The fact that the truth casts Ulfric in a negative light and you're incapable of accepting it doesn't make it any less true and it doesn't magically make the author biased when the game refutes that notion and all you can produce are feeble easily refuted distortions of what the lore documents convey.

The game designers dont do something on accident, and it is no accident that author of the bear of markarth also wrote pro-forsworn book. And it is no accident that he justifies any murders the forsworn might have done as just and fair revenge.

One has to be totally delusional or incapable of understanding English to draw the conclusion that Arrianus Arius justifies anything the Forsworn do based on The "Madmen" of the Reach. Anyone who possesses more than a modicum of intelligence and English reading comprehension skills is capable of understanding that the book isn't pro-Forsworn and concludes that there is veracity to some of the negative attributions made regarding the Forsworn in prior texts.

You can ignore the quotes, which are lore and game content, as much as you want but it only further undermines your uninformed position that it isn't canon, and diminishes what little credibility you have (to the extent you have any at all) remaining regarding the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe.

What can I do except repeat when all you peple do is repeat all and same things over and over. Am I to write a new lore?

You effectively already have written your own lore by ignoring what the actual lore states and materially misrepresenting and distorting lore text in failed attempts to support your position. Repeating those errors doesn't make your claims correct anymore than repeated claims that Creationism is science and Evolution isn't real make those claims true.

 

[Dagmar]

Critics of Emperor Titus Mede II's acquiescence to the White-Gold Concordat that ended the Great War five years earlier took the Redguards' successful resistance as proof that the Aldmeri Dominion and the Thalmor could have been defeated.

There are several things that such critics fail to realize in making the presumptuous assessment of what the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai signified. First is that the only reason that the Redguard resistance was able to force a standstill was because the Imperial Legion had decimated the Aldmeri Dominion army in Cyrodiil denying the Aldmeri Dominion reinforcements. Regardless of whether the Empire ceded land in Hammefell, the Redguard resistance was indebted to the Empire for successfully regaining control of southern Hammerfell irrespective of whether it acknowledges that fact.

Second is that the armchair quarterback/critics are operating with the benefit of hindsight. It's really easy and unfair to lay criticism in that context because after the Battle of the Red Ring it was by no means apparent that the Aldmeri Dominion didn't have sufficient resources to reinforce Hammerfell or landfall a second army to wage war in Cyrodiil. That only became apparent years into the war in Hammerfell.

Third is that there is a monumental difference between achieving a peaceful withdrawal of Aldmeri Dominion forces from occupied Hammerfell after fighting to a military standstill (not a military victory) and defeating the Aldmeri Dominion. In order to truly defeat the Aldmeri Dominion, the Empire would have to have invaded it and conquered it. Otherwise the Dominion would have been free to harass the Empire with border engagements indefinitely as it did during the late Second Era and one has to be completely delusional that the Imperial Legions, with or without the Hammerfell included was in any kind of position to mount an offensive. The lore undeniably establishes that the Legion was so depleted that it couldn't even maintain proper order within the borders of the Empire for over a decade with bandits, corsairs and raiders sacking and razing cities in Cyrodiil and High Rock. It would have been exponentially worse if Aldmeri Dominion forces also supplemented the misery with hit and run raids along the coastline.

Citing the success of the resistance in Hammerfell as evidence that the Empire could have won the Great War by military campaign is simply wishful thinking. More likely the Empire would still be stuck under the fog of war much like it was during the late Second Era but in far worse shape than it was at that time. The people of Cyrodiil and High Rock didn't want that irrespective of the wishes of the people in Hammerfell and, given the history between Hammerfell and Skyrim, the people of Skyrim were probably indifferent at best to the cession of territory in Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion. The book The Great War indicates the White-Gold Concordat had the popular support of the people of the Empire, and the people of Skyrim clearly acquiesced to its terms as they gave lip service observation of the ban of worship of Talos for over a quarter of a century rather than attempting to secede from the Empire. Regardless of whether you or anyone else thinks it was the wrong decision, it was not only the decision of the Emperor, it was reflective of the will of the people of the Empire.

 

[Dagmar]

25 years and nothing is done. For heavens sake hitler took germany from ruin to military superpower in 6 years, what is empire doing?

Way to gloss over the fifteen years prior to Hitler's rise to power, or that Germany prospered prior to his election as Chancellor, or that it was only the economy of Germany that was in ruin when he was elected, or that it had absolutely nothing to do with the prior war and everything to do with the Great Depression's rippling effect throughout Europe and Brüning's poor fiscal policies, or that Germany came out relatively unscathed in terms of damage to its cities and infrastructure after World War I (most of the damage was done in other countries which is why heavy reparations were imposed on Germany), or that the region was completely stable during all that time afterwards with no need for a standing military to protect it from constant attacks by lawless armies

If you knew anything about the state of the Empire after the end of the Great War you would know the situation was the polar opposite after the end of the Great War to Germany's after World War I. Razed cities and ravaged infrastructure, armies of lawless raiders, bandits and corsairs taking advantage of the Legion's depleted numbers all were the order of the day for years upon years after the end of the Great War. It's really easy to trivialize the progress of the Empire's recovery if you're coming from a position of total ignorance but the attempt to compare it to Germany after World War I is a bit of a sad statement about one's knowledge of real history.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

What after his death someone with backbone...
I guess you dont understand the situation. Its imposible. How will he stand up? By raising armies and making weapons. Ooops, Thalmor would know that in an instant and guess what, a war would start with unready empire.
What if he doesnt have a spine. Well the war happens with unready empire. See something repeating. It cant get itself out of the situation.

Ulfric would help empire in the end if thalmor attacked after Skyrims independence. He isnt a madman. They are fighting against elves, not imperials or men.

As for Thalmor attacking Skyrim, from Sea its imposible, its called Sea of Ghosts for a reason. All those icebergs and then lowland, cliff surounded wet beaches unfit for landing a large force and hostile terrain and suroundings (dragons, trolls, wolves, sprigans......)

They would also have to face "the Nord tongues" which Ulfric will no doubt reinstate, and not even greybeards could stay neutral in that situation.

It's not impossible. This is how Titus Mede I got his throne too; fought a lil' bit inland against other guys seeking to rule and ended up being the top dog, and therefore Emperor. Which was good at that point because the Elder Council had no clue who to elect, and without someone on the throne the Empire wouldn't be existant anymore.
For an unready Empire as you call them, they've reacted quite fast to get a few of their men to Skyrim. The Legion isn't unprepared, they'r standing in Cyrodiil to react as soon as the Dominion starts to make a move, the trouble is that they need to regain a certain number before running into a battle and also resources. Seeing how they recruit quite actively numbers shouldn't be the worst thing to worry about, if so rather the resources which are taken from the Civil War in Skyrim.
And as for weapons; that one lady in Whiterun and the other guy in Solitude seem to be quite busy getting to that. Not to mention Erikur earning himself a golden nose with weapon trade. Or possibly also the weapons taken from dead bandits, w a smart move 'cause that way you'd be rid of them too.

And when would Ulfric react? When the Legions' remnants come to seek refugee from the Aldmeri Dominion's armies?
This time I highly doubt that they will just settle in the Capital of Cyrodiil trying to negotiate with the Emperor.
Can't fool them twice like that, especially not after so many o their kin died due to this... miscalculation.

The Nord Tongues take years, sometimes even decades to learn. Meanwhile some Thalmor would make themselves at home in Solitude.

The Thalmor can't cross the sea? Last time I checked there were a few in Solstheim spying out a few villages. And that was just a small boat.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

Nice rep number, Dagmar

 

[DrunkenMage]

Nice rep number, Dagmar

There are times she scares me.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Empire cant prepare because of the Thalmor.
If it starts a new war will break out and they will get anihilated cause they are unprepared.
If they dont prepare they are at mercy of Thalmor who will attack them and they will loose. See a patern there? Empire is doomed in its curent state, and Skyrim with it.
Men would be better prepared if they follow the way of Hammerfell, its on its own at war. Independent men-kingdoms could help each other. Empire cant. Do you think Thalmor could walk around in Skyrim after Stormcloak victory, spying, or preventing armament?

That's point; in its current state.
What if, after the Emperor's death in case you follow the DB storyline, someone with backbone rises with clear dislike for the Thalmor? Or on the other hand, what if the Empire's remnants collapse following his death, and there's no Empire left that would need to be defeated?
The problem I have with Skyrim is that the "end" cannot be foreseen, giving players plenty of room to make own conclusions.
My favourite would be a one-man-war against the Dominion, they wouldn't stand a chance against my character anyway, especially not with Odahviing and Durnehviir on my side, and then become Emperor myself... but that would be too good to be true.
If Ulfric won the Civil War in Lore, managed to get some Stormcloak sympathists/Thalmor haters together in the Capital of Cyrodiil, manages to get Hammerfell on his side as well plus High Rock to march South...

That would be fairly damn epic.

To the part with indepentent man-kingdoms helping each other; how? Skyrim is cut off from Hammerfell because Cyrodiil is in the way; one can't even cross the border without getting caught at some point.
Or worse, what if the Thalmor declared Ulfrics' heretic actions as a reason for war against Skyrim alone? Troops from Alinor, Valenwood, Elsweyr marching North through Cyrodiil? At such a day I'm pretty sure even the Emperor would weep.

What after his death someone with backbone...
I guess you dont understand the situation. Its imposible. How will he stand up? By raising armies and making weapons. Ooops, Thalmor would know that in an instant and guess what, a war would start with unready empire.
What if he doesnt have a spine. Well the war happens with unready empire. See something repeating. It cant get itself out of the situation.

Ulfric would help empire in the end if thalmor attacked after Skyrims independence. He isnt a madman. They are fighting against elves, not imperials or men.

As for Thalmor attacking Skyrim, from Sea its imposible, its called Sea of Ghosts for a reason. All those icebergs and then lowland, cliff surounded wet beaches unfit for landing a large force and hostile terrain and suroundings (dragons, trolls, wolves, sprigans......)

They would also have to face "the Nord tongues" which Ulfric will no doubt reinstate, and not even greybeards could stay neutral in that situation.

Titus Mede II has been preparing for war with the Aldmeri Dominion for the past thirty years, he is the reason the Legions aren't simply marching into Skyrim. He's denying Tullius reinforcements because the war in Skyrim is but a little sideshow, distracting the Empire from war with the Thalmor. You can't fight a war while fighting yourselves.

Both the Aldmeri Dominion and the Empire are preparing for a war, the Thalmor are working to weaken the Empire any way they can. The Civil war is one such example, it is why Ulfric Stormcloak is an asset to the Thalmor, it is also why they are providing indirect aid to the Stormcloaks, they were even at Helgan to save Ulfric Stormcloak from execution. Most of you Stormcloak supporters go on about the Empire being the Thalmor's puppet, but if that was true why do the Thalmor admit an Imperial victory will harm their overall position? You should be thanking the Thalmor for giving you aid, they're certainly not aiding the Legion.

The Sea of Ghosts is not impossible to cross, Solstheim is located in the Sea of Ghosts, the East Empire Trading Company has routes that cross the Sea of Ghosts, Ysgramor and his five hundred crossed the Sea of Ghosts to Skyrim. Looking at the EETC map you can see shipping lanes that go into Solitude and Windhelm.

The Way of the Voice forbids using it for violence, the Greybeards will not teach Nords to use the voice for the "glory of men". Besides that it takes many years to even learn the Thu'um, very few can even do it.

 

[Dagmar]

The Sea of Ghosts is not impossible to cross, Solstheim is located in the Sea of Ghosts, the East Empire Trading Company has routes that cross the Sea of Ghosts, Ysgramor and his five hundred crossed the Sea of Ghosts to Skyrim. Looking at the EETC map you can see shipping lanes that go into Solitude and Windhelm.

There's a big difference between navigating a few ships through the iceberg filled waters of the Sea of Ghosts and maneuvering a fleet large enough to transport an army of tens of thousands from Summerset Isle to Skyrim (or vice versa). The Aldmeri Dominion would need a fleet not only large enough to transport tens of thousands of soldiers but also large enough to carry provisions for the weeks that it would take to make landfall. An invading fleet also can't exactly make landfall at the docks of Solitude, Dawnstar or Windhelm and we know how treacherous the rock lined coastline can be to making safe landfall for even one ship let alone dozens of them. There is also of course the problem of maintaining a supply line for an army of that size. The Empire had similar problems in Akavir and the overall results were disastrous.

Unless Lord Naarafin comes back from Oblivion with a floating city to bring them there the Aldmeri Dominion have no practical means to invade Skyrim except by breaching either the White-Gold Concordat or the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Frankly, the Dominion doesn't even have a real reason to invade Skyrim, or at least not before Cyrodiil. (Almost) Nothing grows there due to the harsh weather and temperature conditions, so it's almost useless for them, especially for an army which needs resources quickly.
It's not very logistically important either. Especially not now that traders and merchants have been scared off by dragons.

The only reason they may invade in the future would be to destroy one of those Towers at the Throat of the World, should the Thalmor-Divinity-Theory be true.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Sea of Ghosts is not impossible to cross, Solstheim is located in the Sea of Ghosts, the East Empire Trading Company has routes that cross the Sea of Ghosts, Ysgramor and his five hundred crossed the Sea of Ghosts to Skyrim. Looking at the EETC map you can see shipping lanes that go into Solitude and Windhelm.

There's a big difference between navigating a few ships through the iceberg filled waters of the Sea of Ghosts and maneuvering a fleet large enough to transport an army of tens of thousands from Summerset Isle to Skyrim (or vice versa). The Aldmeri Dominion would need a fleet not only large enough to transport tens of thousands of soldiers but also large enough to carry provisions for the weeks that it would take to make landfall. An invading fleet also can't exactly make landfall at the docks of Solitude, Dawnstar or Windhelm and we know how treacherous the rock lined coastline can be to making safe landfall for even one ship let alone dozens of them. There is also of course the problem of maintaining a supply line for an army of that size. The Empire had similar problems in Akavir and the overall results were disastrous.

Unless Lord Naarafin comes back from Oblivion with a floating city to bring them there the Aldmeri Dominion have no practical means to invade Skyrim except by breaching either the White-Gold Concordat or the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai.

Well it depends how much value the Thalmor place on it's soldiers, while a sane Military Commander might think twice. The Thalmor of the Fourth Era seem to have some brain washed ideology. A fleet of thousands of Bosmer and Khajiit allies could be expendable enough to secure a beachhead. While unlikely, it wouldn't be impossible. Anything is possible given enough ambition and not caring how many lives it takes. The Altmer a race that claims descent from a God, they can be capable of anything. They were willingly to mess with the Eye of Magnus after all. Now I'm not saying it will happen since it is highly unlikely, I was merely saying it wasn't impossible.

Frankly, the Dominion doesn't even have a real reason to invade Skyrim, or at least not before Cyrodiil. (Almost) Nothing grows there due to the harsh weather and temperature conditions, so it's almost useless for them, especially for an army which needs resources quickly.
It's not very logistically important either. Especially not now that traders and merchants have been scared off by dragons.

The only reason they may invade in the future would be to destroy one of those Towers at the Throat of the World, should the Thalmor-Divinity-Theory be true.

The reason would be same for invading Cyrodiil, dominion over men, to be the rulers of Tamriel. Skyrim is a part of Tamriel, therefor they want to rule it.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

The reason would be same for invading Cyrodiil, dominion over men, to be the rulers of Tamriel. Skyrim is a part of Tamriel, therefor they want to rule it.

Like I said, they'd want to conquer it sooner or later, but certainly not before Cyrodiil.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The reason would be same for invading Cyrodiil, dominion over men, to be the rulers of Tamriel. Skyrim is a part of Tamriel, therefor they want to rule it.

Like I said, they'd want to conquer it sooner or later, but certainly not before Cyrodiil.

Take out Skyrim and you've cut off Cyrodiil from Legions in High Rock, dividing the Empire. It would follow their strategy since gaining power. Divide and conquer, picking away at the Empire one province at a time. Summerset Isles, Valenwood, Elsweyr and now Hammerfell.