Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Anouck]

NENALATA: I do not "compare against lore". I use lore to back up RP choiced. If I am siding with the Empire, do I really need to know why the rebels (Not Ulfric) are fighting, or the lore that supports them? No, same thing with the rebel side. Lore backing up RP, but RP comes first.

If joining the Stormcloaks suits your roleplay better, then go ahead. I am not judging your reasons behind a Stormcloak character. Hell, I even have Stormcloak characters myself..

...But roleplay is pretending to. To make your character feel more realistic, you roleplay. And that is fine, but you also have to understad it is not a valid argument in a debate. For instance: If lore (and lore are actual facts) says that Ulfric murdered the High King, you can't just say 'Yeah, but on my character I roleplay that that is not true'. That means that everyone can make up facts for this debate, just to proof their point.

I guess you understand where I am going

 

[Sven]

Yeah when you win as the Empire Thalmor Justicars and Inquisitors can freely walk the land and imprison and torture Talos worshipers,but all that is fine for Empire players as longs as the stupid dark elves and lizards get fair treatment.

There is no way I'll even agree with that.

The Thalmor Justicars are in Skyrim because we have no choice. The Empire accepted a treaty, which was the best thing to do back then. They were weakened and they could not win from the Dominion.

What do you think the Empire should have done? Carrying on, knowing it is pointless, until the very last soldier gets slaughtered? Carrying on until they (the Dominion) killed all the women and children? It was chosing between two evils, and this option spared most lifes and actually gave the Empire a chance to regain strength and prepare for a second war.

Your Redguard brothers tend to differ about that claim,did you know the story of how they kicked the entire Aldmeri army's elven asses right after the Empire expelled them for still continuing to fight?

 

[Anouck]

Yeah when you win as the Empire Thalmor Justicars and Inquisitors can freely walk the land and imprison and torture Talos worshipers,but all that is fine for Empire players as longs as the stupid dark elves and lizards get fair treatment.

There is no way I'll even agree with that.

The Thalmor Justicars are in Skyrim because we have no choice. The Empire accepted a treaty, which was the best thing to do back then. They were weakened and they could not win from the Dominion.

What do you think the Empire should have done? Carrying on, knowing it is pointless, until the very last soldier gets slaughtered? Carrying on until they (the Dominion) killed all the women and children? It was chosing between two evils, and this option spared most lifes and actually gave the Empire a chance to regain strength and prepare for a second war.

Your Redguard brothers tend to differ about that claim,did you know the story of how they kicked the entire Aldmeri army's elven asses right after the Empire expelled them for still continuing to fight?

Succes stories don't matter for the Empire's story WAS NOT a succes story. Of course the Redguards succeeded, but the Empire did not. And they (like I said before) tried to make the best out of the situation. Just because someone kicked the Dominions ass, doesn't mean everyone else can too.

Also, by just quoting a tiny bit of my post, you kind of get it out of context. Don't you have anything to say about my remark on the whole 'I discriminate them because someone else discriminates me' thing?

 

[Sven]

Also, by just quoting a tiny bit of my post, you kind of get it out of context. Don't you have anything to say about my remark on the whole 'I discriminate them because someone else discriminates me' thing?

Yes,well unless you have felt it yourself,and im not talking about in the game right now,I mean when you feel discriminated,cause I have,you tend to get more aggressive toward everyone because you are blinded with anger,and in that anger you even attack innocent people that have nothing to do with it.You are like "Why should you tell me what to do and what not to,what makes you better than me?"
You do everything to oppose and fight your oppressors,unless you are a coward and prefer to live by the term "A bowed head the sword does not cut" and submit,which I never do.

 

[Anouck]

Also, by just quoting a tiny bit of my post, you kind of get it out of context. Don't you have anything to say about my remark on the whole 'I discriminate them because someone else discriminates me' thing?

Yes,well unless you have felt it yourself,and im not talking about in the game right now,I mean when you feel discriminated,cause I have,you tend to get more aggressive toward everyone because you are blinded with anger,and in that anger you even attack innocent people that have nothing to do with it.You are like "Why should you tell me what to do and what not to,what makes you better than me?"
You do everything to oppose and fight your oppressors,unless you are a coward and prefer to live by the term "A bowed head the sword does not cut" and submit,which I never do.

Oh, I totally understand the anger and frustration that comes from being discriminated. But even that doesn't justify discriminating others. Especially if you are aware of the fact, which you are, because you point it out. It makes it sound like you're using that anger as an excuse. 'Being discriminated makes you more aggressive, there for I can discriminate you now'. I know that is not your intention, but that is how it comes accross.

Of course the Stormcloaks are frustrated because they lost their freedom of religion, which is a very important right (and should be). But by blaming others, who never did any harm to anybody, and discriminating them while using their aggressiveness to justify it, makes them just as bad as the Thalmor.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

"Because you hate I should hate." That might be the stupidest excuse to hate anything I have heard in all honesty. You honestly seem so hypocritical on so many levels makes it hard for me to see how you think you are actually moving the argument forward. I guess my point is how can you justify "shortsightedness and brashness" as a good basis as to why Skyrim should be free. Running a country off passion is often how many real world dictatorships appeared and even more often how many countries fall. A friend once said he joined the Stormcloaks because fighting for freedom was something that really resonating with him due to being from the South United States. But the thing is unlike most people in such a conflict we are detached from it and have many sources to properly draw our own conclusions.

The question is why would they decide that now is the best time? They didn't their leader, a broken tortured shell shocked veteran of the Great War, decided he needed a song. And I have to wonder if he did this simply because he didn't win any merit or honor during the great war. And even now he knows he probably won't get any honor or merit from this venture either. Seeing how he often has Galmar convincing him that it is to late to turn back.

In summary the Stormcloaks seem to now know the saying "Fools rush in were Angels fear to tread" as it were. That in their current state the Nords cannot replicate the Redguards success. And I think it is silly they are trying and are blind to the fact they are causing many of the problems they are pinning on the empire. Maybe it is cause the Thalmor are a continent away but to put it plainly Ulfric is the worst comedian ever with no sense of timing, even though he is the biggest joke in Skyrim.

 

[Sven]

Hate me hate you,that is actually a pretty valid excuse,when someone hates you you have every single right to hate them back.

To "Turn the other cheek" as whatshisname says is a cowards way out.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Hate me hate you,that is actually a pretty valid excuse,when someone hates you you have every single right to hate them back.

Except hating on those who weren't hating, until you made them hate? Make sense.

 

[Anouck]

Hate me hate you,that is actually a pretty valid excuse,when someone hates you you have every single right to hate them back.

To "Turn the other cheek" as whatshisname says is a cowards way out.

Hate me hate you,that is actually a pretty valid excuse,when someone hates you you have every single right to hate them back.

Except hating on those who weren't hating, until you made them hate? Make sense.

Exactly.. No one blames you for hating the Thalmor. Heck, even Imperials can't stand them. What is wrong is that the Stormcloaks, according to this theory, take out their anger on the Dunmer while they get hated by the Dominion.

 

[Sven]

Hate me hate you,that is actually a pretty valid excuse,when someone hates you you have every single right to hate them back.

Except hating on those who weren't hating, until you made them hate? Make sense.

To bring the argument back to the subject,a lot of the non-human races don't like the Nords very much.Some are actually quite open about it,too.

 

[Sven]

Hate me hate you,that is actually a pretty valid excuse,when someone hates you you have every single right to hate them back.

To "Turn the other cheek" as whatshisname says is a cowards way out.

Hate me hate you,that is actually a pretty valid excuse,when someone hates you you have every single right to hate them back.

Except hating on those who weren't hating, until you made them hate? Make sense.

Exactly.. No one blames you for hating the Thalmor. Heck, even Imperials can't stand them. What is wrong is that the Stormcloaks, according to this theory, take out their anger on the Dunmer while they get hated by the Dominion.

Actually the Stormcloaks don't give a flying fluff about any dumbmer or gaymer or whatever,I never heard anyone say anything about a dunmer or argonian,all they hate is a Empire,and few say a few things about the Thalmor too.

Ulfric himself never says anything about the dark elves too,Galmar never even mentions anyone but the Empire and Thalmor.

When you find a stormcloak that says "Death to all dunmer and argonians" point him out so I can go and listen to it myself.Your arguments are invalid.

 

[DrunkenMage]

To bring the argument back to the subject,a lot of the non-human races don't like the Nords very much.Some are actually quite open about it,too.

Wouldn't you be too, if you were racially segregated, treated like a "substandard being" as they put it. The district named after you as an insult to your race, the brother of Galmar comes into your area at the early hours of the morning shouting insults and slurs. Easy for him, he doesn't do anything in Windhelm. The Dunmer all work, pay taxes.

Wouldn't you hate it, that the area is given few guard patrols and is falling apart? Your existence is to simply be bullied and now recently threatened with torture or worse?

Would you love the Nords who do that to you? Even though you have been there for nearly two hundred years, but now you're not an equal because of race?

I for one would despise them too.

 

[Anouck]

Hate me hate you,that is actually a pretty valid excuse,when someone hates you you have every single right to hate them back.

Except hating on those who weren't hating, until you made them hate? Make sense.

To bring the argument back to the subject,a lot of the non-human races don't like the Nords very much.Some are actually quite open about it,too.

So now you get yourself in a circle of hate: I hate yo, you hate me, so now I hate you more.
This way there will never come an end to this. And also; who started the hating? I mean, if you 'doom' people to a life in the grey quarter just because they are dark elves, then hate is to be expected..


Also, do you know who did the same thing a few decades ago? Who forced the Jews to live in gettos because they weren't good enough? The nazis.
I don't want to compare the Stormcloaks to them, but this particular part of their 'policies' does remind me of it. And I don't like it.

 

[Sven]

It reminds me of it too,I gave alot examples about their similarities here.But they have their differences too.
The Nords don't want to exterminate anyone,its actually the High Elf non humans that want to do that,the Nords just want their land and their future for themselves,there is nothing wrong about that.

The orcs live by themselves too in their strongholds,and unlike the Nords,they absolutely don't let anyone non-orc in.
What are you going to say now?Thats right,fluff dem orcs,they racist,not let anyone live with them..*snort**snort*

What about the Falmer,Forsworn and even the Dov,yep,they are all so damn racist they kill everyone different that comes near them.

That is how you two sound.

 

[Anouck]

It reminds me of it too,I gave alot examples about their similarities here.But they have their differences too.
The Nords don't want to exterminate anyone,its actually the High Elf non humans that want to do that,the Nords just want their land and their future for themselves,there is nothing wrong about that.

The orcs live by themselves too in their strongholds,and unlike the Nords,they absolutely don't let anyone non-orc in.
What are you going to say now?Thats right,fluff dem orcs,they racist,not let anyone live with them..*snort**snort*

What about the Falmer,Forsworn and even the Dov,yep,they are all so damn racist they kill everyone different that comes near them.

That is how you two sound.

Orcs live in 'tribes', like wolves live in packs. That is different than saying 'everyone is welcome in our stronghold, except this one race'.

And guess what: the nazis never literally said they wanted to exterminate the jews. After the war, the german soldiers said 'wir haben es nicht gewusst' (we really didn't know).
It is naive to think Ulfric would actually tell you if he was planning to do this.

Also; Nords don't ask the other races to leave. They don't force all the Bretons to live in the 'Breton Quarter'.They only do that to the Dunmer. If you want Skyrim for the Nords, you don't just single out this one race.

And one other thing: "The Nords don't want to exterminate anyone,its actually the High Elf non humans that want to do that,the Nords just want their land and their future for themselves,there is nothing wrong about that"
Like Mage already said before: racism doesn't need to be extreme in order to be racism. Do we really have to wait until it escalates or should we draw a line when Ulfric makes the Dunmer live in a seperate area in Windhelm?

 

[Anouck]

Actually the Stormcloaks don't give a flying fluff about any dumbmer or gaymer or whatever,I never heard anyone say anything about a dunmer or argonian,all they hate is a Empire,and few say a few things about the Thalmor too.

Ulfric himself never says anything about the dark elves too,Galmar never even mentions anyone but the Empire and Thalmor.

When you find a stormcloak that says "Death to all dunmer and argonians" point him out so I can go and listen to it myself.Your arguments are invalid.

As far as I am concerned, neither Ulfric or Galmar say anything racist about the dark elves. But not everything that is not said to the player isn't said at all. You're not present during all their conversations.

But okay.. Let's say he never said anything racist about them: then still...
Deeds have more value than words. The fact that he treats the Dunmer like second rank citizens and forces them to live in the Grey Quarters, says so much about his actual opinion. If I discriminate someone without saying 'hey, I discriminate you', that doesn't mean that it is not racism..

Also; you say the Stormcloaks don't give "a flying fluff". Yet they care enough to force them to live in the grey quarters?

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

NENALATA: I do not "compare against lore". I use lore to back up RP choiced. If I am siding with the Empire, do I really need to know why the rebels (Not Ulfric) are fighting, or the lore that supports them? No, same thing with the rebel side. Lore backing up RP, but RP comes first.

If joining the Stormcloaks suits your roleplay better, then go ahead. I am not judging your reasons behind a Stormcloak character. Hell, I even have Stormcloak characters myself..

...But roleplay is pretending to. To make your character feel more realistic, you roleplay. And that is fine, but you also have to understad it is not a valid argument in a debate. For instance: If lore (and lore are actual facts) says that Ulfric murdered the High King, you can't just say 'Yeah, but on my character I roleplay that that is not true'. That means that everyone can make up facts for this debate, just to proof their point.

I guess you understand where I am going

and if lore states that Imperial law says that, why would a character who dislikes the Empire care about what the Empire says happened to the last High King? Stormcloaks see things through a different lens than Imperial characters.

All the lore says is that Ulfric challenged Torygg to a duel to the death, that Torygg accepted, and Ulfric killed Torygg. Imperial law (which half of skyrim is trying to break free from) says it was treason and murder.

 

[Anouck]

Jeremy, like I said..
Of course I understand it when talking about the character. But you should not use that argument to convince, for instance, me. Just because your character roleplays something, that doesn't mean it is now a valid argument, lore or a fact.

 

[DrunkenMage]

and if lore states that Imperial law says that, why would a character who dislikes the Empire care about what the Empire says happened to the last High King? Stormcloaks see things through a different lens than Imperial characters.

All the lore says is that Ulfric challenged Torygg to a duel to the death, that Torygg accepted, and Ulfric killed Torygg. Imperial law (which half of skyrim is trying to break free from) says it was treason and murder.

I believe it was an example. Another, perhaps clearer example being if lore states the sky is blue, and you role play it is in fact green.

You can't come into a debate on facts and lore and say, but in my RP it is green!

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Jeremy, like I said..
Of course I understand it when talking about the character. But you should not use that argument to convince, for instance, me. Just because your character roleplays something, that doesn't mean it is now a valid argument, lore or a fact.

does it sound like I am trying to convince you? OR, does it sound like I am simply stating my view of the debate?