Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Raijin]

Well first of all, that is exactly what I was saying, however, besides just the one Nord, its clear the Stormcloaks are racist anyways. Deep inside, you know I'm right.

I never heard of any racial statement coming from a stormcloak soldier. This includes Ulfric stromcloak and Galmar. Yes some of the nords in skyrim are racists... but their not a stormcloak.

I don't think anybody here disagrees with you that the Empire fluffed up. I haven't seen any posts disputing that. Its war, pl*** happens, I'm sure you being an Ulfric supporter knows ALL about that (IE. slaughtering of innocents)

Yes we can agree that the Empire is fluffed up. Galmar says it correct. The Empire is dead and that's why their fighting for independence. Bowing down to the elves was the last straw, and Ulfric has many supporters because of it.

What makes you not very logical is that one of the main reasons why you don't like the Empire is that ONE OFFICER ordered your execution, whether or not her higher up looked the other way, does this define the Empire's cause? NO, I don't understand how you cannot accept that.

I don't just hate the Empire base on what happen in Helgan I hate the empire because they sent over a General that clearly takes little interest in Nordic culture and lore and thinks it is nonsense. When I try speaking with the man he said something about directing me to the nearest prison. Tullius is an unpleasant man to be around with. I also hate the Empire for banning the worship of Talos. Because of their laws people have to suffer.

I can go on and on but I don't have enough time (Almost bed time over here) to write a book about it.

Back to my original point which went completely over your head, you seem to completely disagree with someone calling the Stormcloaks racist based off one Nord but you have no problem with jumping the gun at the Empire over ONE officer. Not hypocritical at all, right?

The Empire did recruit this captain, and they did promote her to be a captain so yeah the Empire is at fault for what this woman did. Perhaps Ulfric or Galmar (Forgot who said it) was right. Maybe the Empire is so desperate for recruitment that they would recruit anyone with a pulse. Because it certainly showed it at Helgan. Yes I'm blaming the Empire for what happen at Helgan. They should be accountable for recruiting dangerous people to the legion. I also blame the empire for a lot of other things too. Just like what I said above

 

[Crooksin]

I never heard of any racial statement coming from a stormcloak soldier. This includes Ulfric stromcloak and Galmar. Yes some of the nords in skyrim are racists... but their not a stormcloak.

Or how about only Nords can join because only Nords have the right to Skyrim? (Excluding the Dragonborn because Ulfric only wants to have your power on his side)

Yes we can agree that the Empire is fluffed up. Galmar says it correct. The Empire is dead and that's why their fighting for independence. Bowing down to the elves was the last straw, and Ulfric has many supporters because of it.

How can a "dead" Empire hold back your beloved Stormcloaks with only a couple legions?

I don't just hate the Empire base on what happen in Helgan I hate the empire because they sent over a General that clearly takes little interest in Nordic culture and lore and thinks it is nonsense. When I try speaking with the man he said something about directing me to the nearest prison. Tullius is an unpleasant man to be around with. I also hate the Empire for banning the worship of Talos. Because of their laws people have to suffer.

"Tullius is an unpleasant man to be around" Oh but Ulfric is the most interesting and poetic man to ever exist? Oh please. Neither of them are perfect leaders, but I'll take Tullius side for not being an idiot and creating something like the Stormcloaks.

The Empire didn't ban the Talos, the Thalmor did. The Empire are only there to enforce it, which they clearly don't and they don't care to either. The Empire doesn't like the Thalmor there anymore than you do but its better this way because without the Empire, the Thalmor wouldn't just be killing openly-worshipping Talos followers, they would be murdering and pillaging villages.

The Empire did recruit this captain, and they did promote her to be a captain so yeah the Empire is at fault for what this woman did.

Love your logic.

Ulfric slaughtered innocents, Ulfric created the Stormcloaks, the Stormcloaks are going to go around slaughtering everybody. The Stormcloaks are at fault for Ulfric slaughtering those innocent people.

Am I doing it right?

Perhaps Ulfric or Galmar (Forgot who said it) was right. Maybe the Empire is so desperate for recruitment that they would recruit anyone with a pulse.

So the better policy is to be openly racist and only recruit one particular race of people? lolok.

Because it certainly showed it at Helgan. Yes I'm blaming the Empire for what happen at Helgan. They should be accountable for recruiting dangerous people to the legion. I also blame the empire for a lot of other things too. Just like what I said above

The Dragonborn is dangerous yet I don't see Ulfric hesitating one bit to recruit you, considering you showed up across from him in a prisoner convey and he has no clue what you did to get there.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

 

[Dagmar]

What you just said was base on an opinion and not by facts. Let's stick with the canon story.

Coming from you that's truly laughable. First of all it's canon that you were about to be executed. It's most definitely not canon that you're innocent. That's merely a fabrication based on how you choose to roleplay. The game is open ended as to what you were doing there in the first place. My character was fleeing for Cyrodiil after being involved in a crime gone wrong that ended with a lot of deaths. Lokir was also fleeing for Cyrodiil to avoid capture for horse theft.

As an aside the whole concept of justice in the game is completely lolable. It takes some inference but it seems like the Imperial Legionnaires knew Lokir was merely a common criminal so he may have been executed merely for that. If so it's probable that they probably suspected you of something similar as you're dressed similarly and found under the same circumstances. Yet later in the game you can commit mass murder as long as you pay a few thousand septims in fines (and many players do engage in murder in general, or murder in the name of the Brotherhood, or extortion, theft and murder in the name of the Thieves Guild so maybe the captain's instincts were right about you after all if you fall into any of those categories).

Overall, you have to dispense with any notions of a contemporary system of justice in the game. Neither Tamriel nor the Empire are an egalitarian or just world or society from that viewpoint. You were in the wrong place at the wrong time and were about to pay a heavy price for it. Unfortunately that kind of thing isn't uncommon in a world such as Tamriel. It's probable that it's normative to the people of Tamriel and therefore it's completely plausible that your character can roll with it and get past it. The inability to do so is only dictated by the limits of one's imagination and ability to let go of the real world and immerse oneself in the world of Tamriel.

Second of all you can't pick and choose the validation of game content presented to you like it's a buffet. It's all or nothing. Claiming someone else can't engage in speculation to counter your arguments is hypocritical and flawed pseudo-logic, particularly when your speculation often requires one to actually ignore game content and theirs doesn't, and your notoriety for wild speculation and ignoring game content when it's convenient for your arguments is well established by now. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Benthos]

The Stormcloaks really don't like people who aren't Nords, so you may want to go with the Empire since they are more accepting of all races. There are no special abilities that you gain from joining one faction or the other; but you get rewarded with different kinds of weapons and armor for your contributions to the cause.

If you want to get involved more in the magic I would recommend joining the Mage's Guild.

The fact that they don't like any other races is what drives me away from joining the Stormcloaks. Think of Brotherhood of Steel and the Enclave, two sides who aren't all that good until one or the other assists your means in the story. You're mostly to remain neutral, I like to look at how the Graybeards ignore everything about the war because of how trivial it is compared to the true baddies of the game.

 

[samgurl775]

Not really. The subject is quite tiring. I refuse to believe that Ulfric went around killing the elderly, children on purpose. In a hypothetical case lets just say that Ulfric did killed children who are old enough to hold a sword. Have it ever occurred to you that perhaps the natives to now known as the “forsworn” used the elderly and children as human shields? Same way like like the Taliban strapping bombs on children.

This has to be one of the most unintentionally hilarious posts I've ever read. We can't say that the Stormcloaks would have executed us if we had been captured with a group of Imperials, but you can throw out a human shield theory to defend Ulfric's actions? lolok.

 

[Raijin]

Or how about only Nords can join because only Nords have the right to Skyrim? (Excluding the Dragonborn because Ulfric only wants to have your power on his side)

That's full of crap. People as far as Cyrodiil are coming to Skyrim to join the Stormcloaks because the Empire is in shamble. People take religion very seriously. No matter what the conditions are people want to have the freedom to practice whatever religion they practice. As far as Ulfric using the dragonborn for their power is just flat out ridiculous. I know when someone are using me, and I never got the vibe with Ulfric. Can you point out a scene where Ulfric is using me for my power? provide a video so I can see it for my own set of eyes and ears. I must be missing something here... even with 20+ characters later.

How can a "dead" Empire hold back your beloved Stormcloaks with only a couple legions?

Not sure what you mean about that???? (Just waking up)

"Tullius is an unpleasant man to be around" Oh but Ulfric is the most interesting and poetic man to ever exist? Oh please. Neither of them are perfect leaders, but I'll take Tullius side for not being an idiot and creating something like the Stormcloaks.

While I do agree Ulfric isn't perfect he is quite interesting comparing to Tullius. Ulfric is a courageous man who stands up for what is right. Did you know that the imperials are the ones that named Ulfrics militia? They named them the "Stormcloaks" to belittle them, but they failed because they proudly accepted the name.

The Empire didn't ban the Talos, the Thalmor did. The Empire are only there to enforce it, which they clearly don't and they don't care to either. The Empire doesn't like the Thalmor there anymore than you do but its better this way because without the Empire, the Thalmor wouldn't just be killing openly-worshipping Talos followers, they would be murdering and pillaging villages.

That's false. The Empire did ban the worship of Talos. The Thalmor are there to enforce the law that the Empire implemented.

Love your logic.

I'm sharing you some warm fuzzies by saying that I love your logic as well

Ulfric slaughtered innocents, Ulfric created the Stormcloaks, the Stormcloaks are going to go around slaughtering everybody. The Stormcloaks are at fault for Ulfric slaughtering those innocent people.

Not this plops again. You can't prove that Ulfric slaughtered innocent people other than to fap off to a book "Bear of Markarth". If someone were to write up a book about how you molested children then it must be true, right? You would think that the Empire would be grateful that Ulfric and his men retook the reach back to imperial control. If it wasn't for Ulfric and his Stormcloak soldiers the Empire would not have control over Markarth. If you stop and think about it... since you're an Empire supporter, the Stormcloaks actually did good for the Empire on that day.

The Dragonborn is dangerous yet I don't see Ulfric hesitating one bit to recruit you, considering you showed up across from him in a prisoner convey and he has no clue what you did to get there.

The Dragonborn is suppose to be the stories main character, and the protagonist. Yes the Dragonborn is dangerous... to their enemies. You do have a choice to convert bad and become an antagonist, but that is later on. If you have Dawnguard and become a vampire lord the members of the dawnguard will have groups of teams hunting you down. They even have the full support of all of the Jarls... as stated in their note Skyrim:Writ of Dawn - UESPWiki

 

[Crooksin]

That's full of crap. People as far as Cyrodiil are coming to Skyrim to join the Stormcloaks because the Empire is in shamble. People take religion very seriously. No matter what the conditions are people want to have the freedom to practice whatever religion they practice.

How is that full of crap? By people you must mean strictly Nords. Once again, it has gone over your head. You believe the Stormcloaks aren't racist and you haven't heard any Stormcloak openly racist either, however, the Stormcloak recruiting policy prohibits anyone other than a Nord from joining to retake "what rightfully belongs to the Nords." How is this not racist? How do you not see that at all? Actions speak louder than words.

As far as Ulfric using the dragonborn for their power is just flat out ridiculous. I know when someone are using me, and I never got the vibe with Ulfric. Can you point out a scene where Ulfric is using me for my power? provide a video so I can see it for my own set of eyes and ears. I must be missing something here... even with 20+ characters later.

That's exactly the vibe I got from Ulfric even before I knew what side I wanted to pick in the war. He is an asshole. I know, its only opinion, right? However, its not, he has the qualities of an asshole, whether YOU like him or not despite of this, is opinion.

Not sure what you mean about that???? (Just waking up)

A "dead" Empire would not be able to hold back a rebellion that is the size of the Stormcloaks. I was pretty clear in my other post about that.

While I do agree Ulfric isn't perfect he is quite interesting comparing to Tullius. Ulfric is a courageous man who stands up for what is right. Did you know that the imperials are the ones that named Ulfrics militia? They named them the "Stormcloaks" to belittle them, but they failed because they proudly accepted the name.

I think we both have a differing view on what is "right". I think the stability of Skyrim and its future as a whole is the right thing but you think rebelling against the only chance Skyrim has against the Elves is right. Okay, well at least you and Ulfric are slaughtered for a good cause, right?

The second part, I fail to see how you think that was worth including in your argument.

That's false. The Empire did ban the worship of Talos. The Thalmor are there to enforce the law that the Empire implemented.

Was it banned before the Thalmor? Nope.
What was one the main conditions of the WCG that the Thalmor demanded? That the Empire enforce a ban on Talos worship. They carry out the orders, as was required for the surrender, but they did not ban it in the first place.

Not this pl*** again. You can't prove that Ulfric slaughtered innocent people other than to fap off to a book "Bear of Markarth". If someone were to write up a book about how you molested children then it must be true, right? You would think that the Empire would be grateful that Ulfric and his men retook the reach back to imperial control. If it wasn't for Ulfric and his Stormcloak soldiers the Empire would not have control over Markarth. If you stop and think about it... since you're an Empire supporter, the Stormcloaks actually did good for the Empire on that day.

Isn't all of this based on books from the game? Isn't half of your arguments based off books from a game? It's only legit information when it works for you though, right? Thought so

Why you keep defending Ulfric for this, I will never know. You've already been proven wrong in this area so I'm not going to continue to discuss it.

The Dragonborn is suppose to be the stories main character, and the protagonist. Yes the Dragonborn is dangerous... to their enemies. You do have a choice to convert bad and become an antagonist, but that is later on. If you have Dawnguard and become a vampire lord the members of the dawnguard will have groups of teams hunting you down. They even have the full support of all of the Jarls... as stated in their note Skyrim:Writ of Dawn - UESPWiki

I'm going to ignore the Dawnguard part of this because it really has nothing to do with what I said.

The Dragonborn being the main character isn't relevant to my point, he/she IS dangerous whether he/she has good intentions or bad. Even before the player can actually move the character or do ANYTHING at all, you show up in front of Ulfric in a prisoner convoy and for all he knows you could have slaughtered a village. You are dangerous to him right from the beginning but he recruits you without hesitation anyways.

Oh but wait, I forgot, its only wrong when the Empire recruits people who are/turn out to be dangerous. Its okay for the Stormcloaks because then your argument somehow holds solid in your own eyes.

Again, one officer =/= the Empire. If you hold that against the Empire then you show yourself to be petty, shallow and juvenile. Immediately after the Dragon touches down, its revealed you were being executed by mistake.

 

[Dagmar]

.....People as far as Cyrodiil are coming to Skyrim to join the Stormcloaks because the Empire is in shamble....

This is pure fabrication. No one outside of Skyrim is emigrating there to join the Stormcloaks. If you mean that non-Nords are encountered marching the roads towards Windhelm with the intention of joining the Stormcloaks that's true but it's also significantly different than making a false statement that implies the Stormcloak rebellion is some kind of Empire wide beacon for rebellion. It's exclusive to Skyrim and the Stormcloaks.

Not this pl*** again. You can't prove that Ulfric slaughtered innocent people other than to fap off to a book "Bear of Markarth".

Which is all the proof you need. It's unrefuted by any game content and therefore authoritative lore. That's how it works whether you like it or not. If the ES community and Bethesda took your absurd position then there would hardly be any lore at all as it's largely based on accountings in books with little to nothing to back them up through NPC dialogue or in game events. As I pointed out earlier, you don't get to cherry pick from the lore and ignore it when it suits you when attempting to argue game content. To do so is an open admission of defeat regarding any premise that relies upon that kind of broken psuedo-logic and misguided thought process.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

This is pure fabrication. No one outside of Skyrim is emigrating there to join the Stormcloaks. If you mean that non-Nords are encountered marching the roads towards Windhelm with the intention of joining the Stormcloaks that's true but it's also significantly different than making a false statement that implies the Stormcloak rebellion is some kind of Empire wide beacon for rebeliion. It's exclusive to Skyrim and the Stormcloaks.

Which is all the proof you need. It's unrefuted by any game content and therefore authoritative lore. That's how it works whether you like it or not. If the ES community and Bethesda took your absurd position then there would hardly be any lore at all as it's largely based on accountings in books with little to nothing to back them up through NPC dialogue or in game events. As I pointed out earlier, you don't get to cherry pick from the lore and ignore it when it suits you when attempting to argue game content. To do so is an open admission of defeat regarding any premise that relies upon that kind of broken psuedo-logic and misguided thought process.

Thank you, just thank you. Your logic has restored some faith in humanity. Still can't decide if agree or winner pin is more appropriate though.

 

[Raijin]

How is that full of crap? By people you must mean strictly Nords. Once again, it has gone over your head. You believe the Stormcloaks aren't racist and you haven't heard any Stormcloak openly racist either, however, the Stormcloak recruiting policy prohibits anyone other than a Nord from joining to retake "what rightfully belongs to the Nords." How is this not racist? How do you not see that at all? Actions speak louder than words.

You just said that the Stormcloaks only recruit nords to join for their cause. Thats a down right lie. You cannot prove to me that they reject none nords for their cause. For goodness sakes Ulfric knows that you're Dragon born, and he still makes you complete a task by killing an ice wrath. Now according to Galmar he only gives this task for those who he's not sure of. An addition
Skyrim:Galmar Stone-Fist - UESPWiki

If you're a none nord who wants to join the Stormcloaks Galmar will ask you a none racist question"...But first, tell me. Why's an (none nord race) want to fight for Skyrim?" and if you question him if he only accepts nords he replies back with "You mistake me. I'm not saying no - just wondering about your intentions. We're not looking for sellswords. The Stormcloaks need dedicated men and women who're devoted to the cause and willing to die for it."

Yeah Ulfric is using us for our powers... when he lets Galmar waste your time killing an Ice wrath when Ulfric already knows what your talents are base on what he knows from being with the grey beards. That's one of the things I like about Ulfric. He doesn't give me any special treatment base on my title of Dragonborn. I have to work my way up to the top.

That's exactly the vibe I got from Ulfric even before I knew what side I wanted to pick in the war. He is an asshole. I know, its only opinion, right? However, its not, he has the qualities of an asshole, whether YOU like him or not, despite of this, is opinion.

We all have the right to voice our opinions regarding to what side we choose to be on You think Ulfric is an asshole while I think Tullius is an asshole. Don't you love democracy? And Tullius also has the qualities of an asshole. In fact Skyrim including Cyrodiil are full of assholes. Hows that? It will make us both satisfied We don't have to write a book explaining it one way or another.

I think we both have a differing view on what is "right". I think the stability of Skyrim and its future as a whole is the right thing but you think rebelling against the only chance Skyrim has against the Elves is right. Okay, well at least you and Ulfric are slaughtered for a good cause, right? The second part, I fail to see how you think that was worth including in your argument.

Yes we most definitely have our different views on what is “right”. Skyrim is way better off without the current Empire. For the Empire to be so desperate to ban the worship of talos and signing a treaty that clearly favors the Thalmor is not suitable to run the country. They can't even defend their homeland how can they defend the rest of the provinces that they currently rule over? Sometimes you need to kick yourself in the ass and start back to square 1.

Was it banned before the Thalmor? Nope.
What was one the main conditions of the WCG that the Thalmor demanded? That the Empire enforce a ban on Talos worship. They carry out the orders, as was required for the surrender, but they did not ban it in the first place.

The Thalmor does NOT make the laws... the Empire does. They ban the worship of Talos and gave the Thalmor exclusive rights (I'm sure it's part of the WCG) to enforce it by developing a division to what we know of “thalmor justiciars”

Isn't all of this based on books from the game? Isn't half of your arguments based off books from a game? It's only legit information when it works for you though, right? Thought so
Why you keep defending Ulfric for this, I will never know. You've already been proven wrong in this area so I'm not going to continue to discuss it.

I'm not going to discuss it either because I'm quite tired of seeing you people jack off to Bear of Markarth like if the book was made out of gold . Aren't you guys a bit raw by now? I'm blue to the face having to repeat myself.

The Dragonborn being the main character isn't relevant to my point, he/she IS dangerous whether he/she has good intentions or bad. Even before the player can actually move the character or do ANYTHING at all, you show up in front of Ulfric in a prisoner convoy and for all he knows you could have slaughtered a village. You are dangerous to him right from the beginning but he recruits you without hesitation anyways.

Oh but wait, I forgot, its only wrong when the Empire recruits people who are/turn out to be dangerous. Its okay for the Stormcloaks because then your argument somehow holds solid in your own eyes.

What logic does labeling the Dragonborn as a “dangerous” individual indicate? What does that have to do with a sociopath captain that shows little to no remorse to other peoples life? The Dragonborn doesn't go around and ordering people to be executed. It's just logic fail right there.

Again, one officer =/= the Empire. If you hold that against the Empire then you show yourself to be petty, shallow and juvenile. Immediately after the Dragon touches down, its revealed you were being executed by mistake.

I can't believe you make every excuse in the book to defend the Empire. To call me shallow and a juvenile is ridiculous.

If it wasn't for Alduin the EMPIRE WOULD'VE fluffING MURDERED YOU! What don't you get? Making a massive mistake like executing someone who shouldn't be executed doesn't give the empire an excuse, and the right to murder innocent people.

I'm not too forgiving with people that tries killing me, especially when it's inches away. The Empire most definitely earned their way onto my plopslist.

Listen and then read the lyrics for the fun of it

When I get mad
And I get pissed
I grab my pen
And I write out a list
Of all the people
That won't be missed
You've made my plopslist
For all the ones
Who bum me out
plopslist
For all the ones
Who fill my head with doubt
plopslist
For all the squares who get me pissed
plopslist
You've made my plopslist

plopslist
plopslist

When I get mad
And I get pissed
plopslist
I grab my pen
And write out a list
plopslist
Of all you assholes
Who won't be missed
plopslist
You've made my plopslist

plopslist
plopslist

 

[Crooksin]

You just said that the Stormcloaks only recruit nords to join for their cause. Thats a down right lie. You cannot prove to me that they reject none nords for their cause. For goodness sakes Ulfric knows that you're Dragon born, and he still makes you complete a task by killing an ice wrath. Now according to Galmar he only gives this task for those who he's not sure of. An addition
Skyrim:Galmar Stone-Fist - UESPWiki

If you're a none nord who wants to join the Stormcloaks Galmar will ask you a none racist question"...But first, tell me. Why's an (none nord race) want to fight for Skyrim?" and if you question him if he only accepts nords he replies back with "You mistake me. I'm not saying no - just wondering about your intentions. We're not looking for sellswords. The Stormcloaks need dedicated men and women who're devoted to the cause and willing to die for it."

Yeah Ulfric is using us for our powers... when he lets Galmar waste your time killing an Ice wrath when Ulfric already knows what your talents are base on what he knows from being with the grey beards. That's one of the things I like about Ulfric. He doesn't give me any special treatment base on my title of Dragonborn. I have to work my way up to the top.

You practically just proved my point right there. Why is it that even though ALL Stormcloaks are Nords, they still recruit the non-Nord Dragonborn....well for his powers of course. Its easy to explain why they send you out to kill an ice wraith, the Nords/Stormcloaks are ritualistic and symbolic people but no matter how powerful you may be, you still have to fulfill trivial tasks.

They have racist ideologies, directly or indirectly with all this "Skyrim is for the Nords" stuff and if they weren't prejudice, why is there no other races in their ranks? As you've said before, people ALL across Skyrim are taking up Ulfric's banner for the Stormcloak cause but Nords are barely the majority so why are all these soldiers JUST Nords? So either most of the country wants nothing to do with the Stormcloaks (And its just one man's pipe dream that Nords blindly follow based on foolish patriotic views) or the Stormcloaks do not allow other races to join. Whatever way you want to spin it, it makes the Stormcloaks seem childish and not a good side to support.

We all have the right to voice our opinions regarding to what side we choose to be on You think Ulfric is an asshole while I think Tullius is an asshole. Don't you love democracy? And Tullius also has the qualities of an asshole. In fact Skyrim including Cyrodiil are full of assholes. Hows that? It will make us both satisfied We don't have to write a book explaining it one way or another.

When did I say Tullius wasn't an asshole? In fact I do recall that I said he wasn't that great of a leader. (Far smarter than Ulfric, though)

My point for this was that in this entire thread, anyone that says Ulfric is an asshole you tell them its a matter of opinion. Within the parameters of that logic, Hitler wasn't an asshole or Jeffrey Dahmer wasn't either because I don't think he was. (I think we can all agree that they were assholes to say the least) Its not a matter of opinion to define someone from how they present themselves/act toward others (With justification, of course), its only opinion on whether you like that person.

Yes we most definitely have our different views on what is “right”. Skyrim is way better off without the current Empire. For the Empire to be so desperate to ban the worship of talos and signing a treaty that clearly favors the Thalmor is not suitable to run the country. They can't even defend their homeland how can they defend the rest of the provinces that they currently rule over? Sometimes you need to kick yourself in the ass and start back to square 1.

And how far do you think Skyrim/Empire is going to get at square 1 against the Elves? Its laughable that you continue to believe that you think going back to square 1 is the solution to fighting a highly-trained, magical Elven army.

The Thalmor does NOT make the laws... the Empire does. They ban the worship of Talos and gave the Thalmor exclusive rights (I'm sure it's part of the WCG) to enforce it by developing a division to what we know of “thalmor justiciars”

The only reason why Talos is banned is because of the Thalmor. No one disagrees that its a terrible thing to have to deal with but at the same time the ban is almost completely symbolic for the Empire, they don't enforce it, only the Thalmor Justiciars do so why all this rage against the Empire and not the Thalmor? Doesn't make much sense.

I'm not going to discuss it either because I'm quite tired of seeing you people jack off to Bear of Markarth like if the book was made out of gold . Aren't you guys a bit raw by now? I'm blue to the face having to repeat myself.

A liar can repeat his words a hundred times, does not make it true.

What logic does labeling the Dragonborn as a “dangerous” individual indicate? What does that have to do with a sociopath captain that shows little to no remorse to other peoples life? The Dragonborn doesn't go around and ordering people to be executed. It's just logic fail right there.

I should use that facepalm meme for this right here.

You blame the Empire for hiring, training and putting the Captain in a position of power where they make decisions that affect lives. You don't hold Ulfric responsible at all for using that same logic and recruiting a complete criminal, whether or not that criminal coincidentally was the Dragonborn or not. In other words, plops happens.

I can't believe you make every excuse in the book to defend the Empire. To call me shallow and a juvenile is ridiculous.

I don't make just ANY excuse to defend the Empire, just the logical ones. You, however, have a tendency to grasp at straws which is evident in a lot of your posts in this thread including this one right here.

If it wasn't for Alduin the EMPIRE WOULD'VE f***ing MURDERED YOU! What don't you get? Making a massive mistake like executing someone who shouldn't be executed doesn't give the empire an excuse, and the right to murder innocent people.

1. One captain does not control the Empire.
2. One captain does not interfere/influence the cause/reasons behind the Empire.
3. The Empire cannot be discredited on the actions of one person EXACTLY in the same way the Stormcloaks cannot be accused of being racist on the actions of one nord (hint hint nudge nudge)
4. This thread is called "Imperials or Stormcloaks" not "That one empire bitch tried to kill me at the start of the game." Its irrelevant in the grand scheme of things considering this debate is based on the people's/birds eye point of view of the world instead of the Dragonborn

I'm not too forgiving with people that tries killing me, especially when it's inches away. The Empire most definitely earned their way onto my plopslist.

An entire Empire devoting to trying to kill you is one thing. One officer not doing her job is another. The Empire didn't try to kill you, its said it was completely by accident. The one officer who clearly doesn't care to do her job to the fullest did. The blame should be on her and her only. Its exactly the reason I call you petty, shallow and juvenile.

 

[Dagmar]

I'm not going to discuss it either because I'm quite tired of seeing you people jack off to Bear of Markarth like if the book was made out of gold . Aren't you guys a bit raw by now? I'm blue to the face having to repeat myself.

This kind of juvenille response is a sad pathetic desperate act of last resort for someone when confronted with an argument he can't rebutt with a shred of reason. It's no wonder you feel depleted by repeatedly taking the same untenable position again and again with nothing more than the same feeble arguments to defend it only to have it shattered again and again in a public forum.

Your dignity called and left you a message. It wants to know why you abandoned it for such hopeless cause. Maybe it's time you let it know you're giving up and it can come back home now.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

View attachment 2861

I knew I would see a post by you eventually!

 

[Raijin]

You practically just proved my point right there. Why is it that even though ALL Stormcloaks are Nords, they still recruit the non-Nord Dragonborn....well for his powers of course. Its easy to explain why they send you out to kill an ice wraith, the Nords/Stormcloaks are ritualistic and symbolic people but no matter how powerful you may be, you still have to fulfill trivial tasks.

No it didn't. I proved that the Stormcloaks are willing to recruit none nords to their organization.

They have racist ideologies, directly or indirectly with all this "Skyrim is for the Nords" stuff and if they weren't prejudice, why is there no other races in their ranks? As you've said before, people ALL across Skyrim are taking up Ulfric's banner for the Stormcloak cause but Nords are barely the majority so why are all these soldiers JUST Nords? So either most of the country wants nothing to do with the Stormcloaks (And its just one man's pipe dream that Nords blindly follow based on foolish patriotic views) or the Stormcloaks do not allow other races to join. Whatever way you want to spin it, it makes the Stormcloaks seem childish and not a good side to support.

None Stormcloaks nords say “Skyrim is for the nords” when you fight them. Either it be a store owner, or a bandit. It has nothing to do with the Stormcloaks. As far as no other races in their ranks I most likely blame it on the game mechanics. Bethesda felt that it was more necessary to release this incomplete game for the sole purpose of marking (11/11/11) rather than to give this game more time to finish.

When did I say Tullius wasn't an asshole? In fact I do recall that I said he wasn't that great of a leader. (Far smarter than Ulfric, though)

Other than the smarter part at least we both agree to something

My point for this was that in this entire thread, anyone that says Ulfric is an asshole you tell them its a matter of opinion. Within the parameters of that logic, Hitler wasn't an asshole or Jeffrey Dahmer wasn't either because I don't think he was. (I think we can all agree that they were assholes to say the least) Its not a matter of opinion to define someone from how they present themselves/act toward others (With justification, of course), its only opinion on whether you like that person.

I just said that Skyrim is full of assholes... that includes the Jarls

And how far do you think Skyrim/Empire is going to get at square 1 against the Elves? Its laughable that you continue to believe that you think going back to square 1 is the solution to fighting a highly-trained, magical Elven army.

I think you've misunderstood what I wrote. When I said go back to square 1 I meant that the Empire should be focusing on their home land. To rebuild their armies, and let the other provinces be temporary independence for a while. Sometimes you need to kick yourself in the ass and do a downgrade.

The only reason why Talos is banned is because of the Thalmor. No one disagrees that its a terrible thing to have to deal with but at the same time the ban is almost completely symbolic for the Empire, they don't enforce it, only the Thalmor Justiciars do so why all this rage against the Empire and not the Thalmor? Doesn't make much sense.

I rage over against the Empire because they made a law banning the worship of Talos, and they didn't even enforce it. Perhaps if they did the Thalmor wouldn't be there to enforce it a pond themselves. We know just how brutal their torture treatment consist of. Look at what they did to Ulfric. Besides the point if the Empire was smart enough they would've used this law for their advantage. They could make a deal with the arrested Talos worshiping prisoners that if they fight for them in the next war they would be set free. The Empire would have secret prisons (Mostly in the mines) to train their Talos worshiping prisoners to become Imperial soldiers. Do you understand where I'm coming from? The Empire isn't as smart as you think they are, and that's why their dying empire... all thanks to Titus Mede II

You blame the Empire for hiring, training and putting the Captain in a position of power where they make decisions that affect lives. You don't hold Ulfric responsible at all for using that same logic and recruiting a complete criminal, whether or not that criminal coincidentally was the Dragonborn or not. In other words, pl*** happens.

That doesn't make any sense. When did Ulfric recruited a complete criminal? Are you trying to tell me that the Dragonborn is a criminal? I suppose it's neither of our fault because Bethesda is known to confuse us with lack of storyline in Skyrim.

I don't make just ANY excuse to defend the Empire, just the logical ones. You, however, have a tendency to grasp at straws which is evident in a lot of your posts in this thread including this one right here.
1. One captain does not control the Empire.
2. One captain does not interfere/influence the cause/reasons behind the Empire.
3. The Empire cannot be discredited on the actions of one person EXACTLY in the same way the Stormcloaks cannot be accused of being racist on the actions of one nord (hint hint nudge nudge)
4. This thread is called "Imperials or Stormcloaks" not "That one empire bitch tried to kill me at the start of the game." Its irrelevant in the grand scheme of things considering this debate is based on the people's/birds eye point of view of the world instead of the Dragonborn

1. I did not say that the Captain controls the empire. That job is for the Emperor.
2. The Captain most definitely have influence behind the Empire. It is their job to represent the empire in good standards.
3. Why not? They promoted this captain. They should be responsible for what she does. The scary part is she was so bold to do it right in front of Tullius.
4. The Imperials was inches away from murdering you at the beginning of the game so I don't know why you would even try to bring up the "it's irrelevant" which it is in fact relevant.

An entire Empire devoting to trying to kill you is one thing. One officer not doing her job is another. The Empire didn't try to kill you, its said it was completely by accident. The one officer who clearly doesn't care to do her job to the fullest did. The blame should be on her and her only. Its exactly the reason I call you petty, shallow and juvenile.

Call me whatever you like because I'm still blaming the Empire for what happen in Helgan. Tullius could've done something, but he didn't. The Captain that tried murdering me was part of the Empire and thus makes the Empire accountable for their “accidents” and “Mistakes”

 

[Agumon]

I played both sides, and preferred the stormcloaks, mainly because they're more manly and tough than imperials.

Also joined them because i murdered the emperor during the dark brotherhood questline, would make more sense to fight the empire.

 

[Insufferable Smartypants]

*SPOILER ALERT* There may be minor *spoilers* below. Please do not read if this concerns you.
I'm surprised at how big a deal people have made of the whole excecution scene at the beginning of the game. There seems to be a lot of deliberate misinformation flying around. Let me say this part again in different words for the stupid people: Either people misunderstood a lot of what was going on, or they're deliberately lying about it.
The general's job (or the captain's for that matter) is *not* to "represent the empire" or wear pretty ribbons in a parade. These are peacetime objectives. Currently their job is to quell the rebellion. Anybody making a stink about their rights as a citizen of the empire doesn't understand Tamriel's bloody history or an officer's role in a war scenario.
To those folks whining that General Tullius should have yanked on the captain's leash when she ordered your excecution, I have to say that you're being completely unrealistic and illogical. It's not his job to hold anybody's hand during this war - he's there to watch the big picture and make sure the empire comes out on top. He was at least 20 feet away when your excecution was ordered, and probably in discussion with somebody else at the time. He has no reason at all to come to your aid - in fact, doing so would undermine the authority of his captain. She is there specifically to address the little issues (like this one) so that they don't interfere with his ability to win the war.
Excecuting a criminal that was captured on the road absolutely falls into the captain's purview. It could be argued to be a mistake, but only because you survive. If you hadn't, history would have forgotten you completely, or (best case scenario) have noted you as an unfortunate casualty of a brutal conflict.
Yes, I said criminal earlier. The empire is quelling a little rebellion in one of it's territories. You can bet that the Black Horse Courier or it's 200 years later equivalent has covered this whole event and specifically warned all citizens of the empire to stay the hell out of Skyrim until the border has been re-opened. Everybody in the empire has been notified that Skyrim is a war zone, and that those caught illegally crossing without authorization will be assumed to be joining the rebellion, and put to death.
No, a lot of that isn't specifically stated in the game, but then again it doesn't really have to be, does it? It makes a hell of a lot of sense, and it's in keeping with the history of the series and the nature of military conflict.
Items that *are* specifically stated but that this thread has ignored time and again:
The dragonborn was caught crossing into Skyrim from Cyrodiil, not the other way around. This is supported by that same character's ignorance about current events while running from the intro cave to Riverwood accompanied by either Hadvar or Ralof.
The Thalmor are deliberately attempting to escallate the conflict, weakening the empire and Skyrim both. It's implied many times in the story that the Thalmor intend to invade if Skyrim breaks away from the strength of the empire.
Ulfric's Thalmor Dossier states that Ulfric Stormcloak broke under interrogation during the great war. He believes that information he provided lead to the fall of the imperial city. He was contacted by the Thalmor again and "proved his worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim..."
Also from Ulfric's Dossier: "The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim."
All witnesses (yes, every last one - including Ulfric himself) to the death of High King Torrig agree that Ulfric Stormcloak used magic in what was supposed to be a duel of honor. Given the Nord's universal prejudice against magic in general, one cannot logically call Ulfric's slaying of Torrig an honorable duel, even if the magic involved was "special skyrim voice magic." Disabling your opponent with magic and then running him through isn't really any better than simply blasting him apart with magic. It's still cheating.
In Sovengaard, Ulfric's ghost expresses remorse for his deeds, realizing that his rebellion, ultimately, was a mistake. Apparently in death, his role as a tool for the elves becomes much more clear to him.

 

[Crooksin]

No it didn't. I proved that the Stormcloaks are willing to recruit none nords to their organization.

You haven't, actually. Like you've said before, for the benefit of the story the main character is allowed to choose whichever side he/she wants despite this.

None Stormcloaks nords say “Skyrim is for the nords” when you fight them. Either it be a store owner, or a bandit. It has nothing to do with the Stormcloaks. As far as no other races in their ranks I most likely blame it on the game mechanics. Bethesda felt that it was more necessary to release this incomplete game for the sole purpose of marking (11/11/11) rather than to give this game more time to finish.

Best excuse from you yet. You know how fast it takes to add a non-Nord npc to a faction? Come on now, did you really believe yourself when you wrote this?

I just said that Skyrim is full of assholes... that includes the Jarls

Avoid replying because you know you're wrong lol

I think you've misunderstood what I wrote. When I said go back to square 1 I meant that the Empire should be focusing on their home land. To rebuild their armies, and let the other provinces be temporary independence for a while. Sometimes you need to kick yourself in the ass and do a downgrade.

I never misunderstood what you wrote. Unlike Hammerfell, the only army Skyrim has is the Empire and the Stormcloaks. Stormcloaks will be slaughtered against a full-on invasion by the Thalmor and the Empire is the only reason why there isn't one.

I rage over against the Empire because they made a law banning the worship of Talos, and they didn't even enforce it. Perhaps if they did the Thalmor wouldn't be there to enforce it a pond themselves.We know just how brutal their torture treatment consist of. Look at what they did to Ulfric. Besides the point if the Empire was smart enough they would've used this law for their advantage. They could make a deal with the arrested Talos worshiping prisoners that if they fight for them in the next war they would be set free. The Empire would have secret prisons (Mostly in the mines) to train their Talos worshiping prisoners to become Imperial soldiers. Do you understand where I'm coming from? The Empire isn't as smart as you think they are, and that's why their dying empire... all thanks to Titus Mede II

/facepalm
This... I don't even understand you at this point. This whole thread you hold the Empire at fault for banning Talos worship and because of that they should be dethroned. But right here you say you're mad at them because they DON'T enforce it? How can you be mad at the Empire for not enforcing a ban that you hate in the first place? I don't even know what to call that logic and I'm going to throw this entire argument out the window.

That doesn't make any sense. When did Ulfric recruited a complete criminal? Are you trying to tell me that the Dragonborn is a criminal? I suppose it's neither of our fault because Bethesda is known to confuse us with lack of storyline in Skyrim.

Omg dude, YOU SHOW UP IN A PRISONER CONVEY RIGHT IN FRONT OF ULFRIC! Whether or not Bethesda left out why you were there, you still are there and Ulfric still recruited you without hesitation even before he knew you were the Dragonborn. Same logic is applied to how the Empire recruited the Captain who later turned out to be dangerous.

1. I did not say that the Captain controls the empire. That job is for the Emperor.
2. The Captain most definitely have influence behind the Empire. It is their job to represent the empire in good standards.
3. Why not? They promoted this captain. They should be responsible for what she does. The scary part is she was so bold to do it right in front of Tullius.
4. The Imperials was inches away from murdering you at the beginning of the game so I don't know why you would even try to bring up the "it's irrelevant" which it is in fact relevant.

Call me whatever you like because I'm still blaming the Empire for what happen in Helgan. Tullius could've done something, but he didn't. The Captain that tried murdering me was part of the Empire and thus makes the Empire accountable for their “accidents” and “Mistakes”

It isn't relevant because its one captain and this debate isn't about the view from the Dragonborn. Its about the Empire/Stormcloaks as a whole. This is just some petty, last-ditch reason to make the Stormcloaks seem better.

The guy aboved me explained it quite well.

 

[Raijin]

You haven't, actually. Like you've said before, for the benefit of the story the main character is allowed to choose whichever side he/she wants despite this.

Yes I have

Best excuse from you yet. You know how fast it takes to add a non-Nord npc to a faction? Come on now, did you really believe yourself when you wrote this?

Not an excuse We all know how sloppy Bethesda can be. Look at the companion sage for a prime example. A total disaster

Avoid replying because you know you're wrong lol

How am I avoid replying? Don't you agree that everyone in Skyrim are assholes? That includes the Jarls?

I never misunderstood what you wrote. Unlike Hammerfell, the only army Skyrim has is the Empire and the Stormcloaks. Stormcloaks will be slaughtered against a full-on invasion by the Thalmor and the Empire is the only reason why there isn't one.

Do you have a magical crystal ball that can tell you what will happen in the future of a fictional war? How do you know for sure that the Stormcloaks will be slaughtered against a full -on invasion by the Thalmor? Skyrim don't need the Empire.. it's the other way around.

/facepalm
This... I don't even understand you at this point. This whole thread you hold the Empire at fault for banning Talos worship and because of that they should be dethroned. But right here you say you're mad at them because they DON'T enforce it? How can you be mad at the Empire for not enforcing a ban that you hate in the first place? I don't even know what to call that logic and I'm going to throw this entire argument out the window.

It's safe to say that we don't understand each other at all. I will make this nice and short. The Thalmor forced the emperor to sign a treaty to ban the worship of Talos and he accepted. He acknowledges that Tiber Septim did not descended to godhood and therefor he should not be worship. According to the horse thief the empire was lazy. It is the Empires fault for not regulating their own laws which resulted of having the Thalmor step in and start enforcing it themselves.

Omg dude, YOU SHOW UP IN A PRISONER CONVEY RIGHT IN FRONT OF ULFRIC! Whether or not Bethesda left out why you were there, you still are there and Ulfric still recruited you without hesitation even before he knew you were the Dragonborn. Same logic is applied to how the Empire recruited the Captain who later turned out to be dangerous.

So tell me what was my heinous crime? Ulfric can sympathize with you because the Empire was too quick to send people to the chopping block without a trial. You as the prisoner was picked up by the Imperials, and without having a conviction of your crimes you were sentenced to death. You don't become a criminal until after you been tried and convicted of a crime.


Legal Dictionary | Law.com


criminal
1) n. a popular term for anyone who has committed a crime, whether convicted of the offense or not. More properly it should apply only to those actually convicted of a crime. Repeat offenders are sometimes called habitual criminals. 2) adj. describing certain acts or people involved in or relating to a crime. Examples of uses include "criminal taking," "criminal conspiracy," a "criminal gang."
See also: convict felon habitual criminal

So in law terms your logical about Ulfric recruiting criminals is a fallacy, but nice try thought.