Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Docta Corvina]

Well thank you Docta Corvina for the reply, It was what I was looking for in a reply. I too will support the Legion/Imperials now, I just feel like the legion has a better overall attitude toward all the races and after reading your post and several others I feel like if I joined the Stormcloaks it would only have been in revenge for the Imperials/Legions from trying to cut my head off, but after hearing Ulfric and how he only backs the Nords that get attacked I just can't see myself helping a selfish/racist leader like that. So again thanks a ton Docta Corvina for the helpful information and I hope some kind of expansion or DLC or anything will further the storyline of the war.

I'm very glad I could help! I by no means wished to suggest, by the way, that I have any idea of a real timeline of future events or to suggest that I think any sort of AD/Empire warfare is necessarily due to occur tomorrow or even in a decade. Dagmar makes some good points in that regard. While I personally think there is a larger showdown to be had, the time and date of such a thing is presently unclear.

I rather just wanted to highlight attitudes of prominent Legionnaires regarding the current events and the Dominion at large - I've always found it an unfair assumption and charge that those fighting on behalf of the Empire are collectively willing and enthusiastic cheerleaders for the Dominion. As these quotes from casual conversation and quests like "Season Unending" demonstrate, that couldn't be further from the truth.

As we've pointed out in this thread time and again, both sides have their relatively "good" and "bad" aspects. Beth did write the civil war to be able to tear you in two directions. That much is clear right from the opening scene. It was brilliantly done, in my opinion.

 

[lvillefan]

Can't believe a thread with such poor grammar in its title was stickied on this forum.

Can we get that edited please.

Imperials or Stormcloaks, which one?
"what one?" What a tard!

And who argues politics and morals of a group with in a game? The obvious choice would be the one that fits the character you are trying to create.
You kill people regardless of allegiance.

Sent using my thumbs.

 

[samgurl775]

And who argues politics and morals of a group with in a game?

This must be your first day on the internet.

 

[thatwudbryan]

More Imperial hypocricy!?

 

[azali100]

The bottom line is neither team (Stormcloaks and the Imperials/Empire) aren't truly the bad guys. It's truly unfortunate that Bethesda didn't give us the option to use our speechcraft skills to convince our preferred leader (Gen. Tullius or Jarl Ulfric) to temporary become allies to our enemy to then take our lead to the damn Elves. The next great war will require all man kind full cooperation so they can win against the A.D.

Perhaps I'm speaking this in a matter of RP point of view, but I firmly believe that the gods chosen you to become the problem solver of man. The Divines chooses you to become the next leader. To be honest with you I don't think the Dragonborn should side with anyone... more neurally if anything else.

Bethesda would most likley save a war with the Thalmor for a future game or set the next game in a future after the war and tell that story through in game lore. I can't see them doing it as DLC or anything. It jus seems to bigg for DLC.

 

[Dark Seducer]

stormcloaks, any non-elven race should agree

​

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

The bottom line is neither team (Stormcloaks and the Imperials/Empire) aren't truly the bad guys. It's truly unfortunate that Bethesda didn't give us the option to use our speechcraft skills to convince our preferred leader (Gen. Tullius or Jarl Ulfric) to temporary become allies to our enemy to then take our lead to the damn Elves. The next great war will require all man kind full cooperation so they can win against the A.D.

Perhaps I'm speaking this in a matter of RP point of view, but I firmly believe that the gods chosen you to become the problem solver of man. The Divines chooses you to become the next leader. To be honest with you I don't think the Dragonborn should side with anyone... more neurally if anything else.

Ok Raijin I almost fully agree with this, I still don't like Ulfric or some narrow minded views of the Stormcloaks an their belief in Nordic and human superiority which greatly mirrors that of the Thalmor's belief in Altmer superiority. However I will say one thing, the Thalmor don't only want to oppress man alone, they want to oppress all non-Altmer races, even other mer. It is also likely that not all Altmer support the Thalmor. Yes the Empire is lead by man, but it consists of more than just man. In fact I am sure it is right to say that it is likely the rebuilt Legion that battles the Dominion will consist of men, mer, and beast-folk. Not just men. Who knows, maybe the person to bring down the Thalmor rule of the Aldmeri Dominion will be an Altmer themselves. Oh the irony that would be.

 

[Rayven]

Thread pruned.

Intelligent debate on sexual orientation is welcome in the Lobby. I encourage the participants of that discussion to take it there instead of in the middle of "the thread".

Intelligent debate is also welcome on sig size. This can happen in the Lobby or in the Suggestions/Feedback forums. I will state for the record, however, that when sigs are reported, my rule of thumb is no more than half of MY screen on my Macbook. It's a smaller screen than my PC laptop and I consider it somewhat the low end of possible screen resolutions of our guests on this forum. In web design, you typically choose the "worst settings" of the market you are trying to reach and design your footprint based upon that. I am happy to continue this discussion if you wish to start a thread in one of the forums I suggested and alert me in it.

 

[Ozan]

Most curious to Ozan. As of now, each discusses possible union against a potential enemy.

Ozan finds this unacceptable.

What One often forgets that origin often dictates alignment. As an example, Khajiit wishes to compare the Stormcloak Nord and the Imperial Colovian. Should a Colovian find himself in Skyrim, he shall be more accustomed with Imperial custom, perhaps even aiding his fellow Colovian, despite being considered a local by the Colovian She-Nord.

And should a Nord find himself within Skyrim, it is easy though not promised that he shall be a Stormcloak Nord. Even if the furry Nord who grunts often accuses the Nord of being foreign.

This is good. This means one mustn't be a Colovian to side as Colovian or a Nord to be Stormcloak.

But what of the Aldmeri Elf types?

Ozan does not view them as evil, though he does not trust the Elf things. The Thalmor, perhaps, but not the Dominion as a whole.

How does this Khajiit speak so easily of the Dominion? Does Ozan support them? No. He has never trusted many Elf types, but he knows of empathy. The Elves invade and conquer. They are as evil as the Nord Talos. They lead a sneak attack? The only fair fight is a fight one wins. They strategize and plot, as any general. No. They are evil because you are told they are.

Avoid such propaganda and perhaps even Tamriel will know peace.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Most curious to Ozan. As of now, each discusses possible union against a potential enemy.

Ozan finds this unacceptable.

What One often forgets that origin often dictates alignment. As an example, Khajiit wishes to compare the Stormcloak Nord and the Imperial Colovian. Should a Colovian find himself in Skyrim, he shall be more accustomed with Imperial custom, perhaps even aiding his fellow Colovian, despite being considered a local by the Colovian She-Nord.

And should a Nord find himself within Skyrim, it is easy though not promised that he shall be a Stormcloak Nord. Even if the furry Nord who grunts often accuses the Nord of being foreign.

This is good. This means one mustn't be a Colovian to side as Colovian or a Nord to be Stormcloak.

But what of the Aldmeri Elf types?

Ozan does not view them as evil, though he does not trust the Elf things. The Thalmor, perhaps, but not the Dominion as a whole.

How does this Khajiit speak so easily of the Dominion? Does Ozan support them? No. He has never trusted many Elf types, but he knows of empathy. The Elves invade and conquer. They are as evil as the Nord Talos. They lead a sneak attack? The only fair fight. They strategize and plot, as any general. No. They are evil because you are told they are.

Avoid such propaganda and perhaps even Tamriel will know peace.

You forget the whole genocide thing. Also, there is a section for roleplay. You know that. Right?

 

[PrisonerLizzie]

You forget the whole genocide thing. Also, there is a section for roleplay. You know that. Right?

Your racism is showing. Its no more rp for anyone to say I'm an Imperial and this is why or I'm a Stormcloak and this is why then for this person to have typed this well thought out argument in the voice of their character. I'm wonder if the problem isn't that the argument isn't in the voice of the character but that that character is a Khajiit.

 

[Dagmar]

You forget the whole genocide thing.

There's no "genocide thing" to forget. The Aldmeri Dominion's goal isn't genocide, it's at most world domination. If you equate that to genocide then you may as well say the Third Empire is dedicated to genocide as well. While it's true that the Thalmor believe the Altmer are superior to all others that doesn't even remotely equate to genocide. They don't have the Bosmer and Khajiit in internment camps completely disenfranchised of their rights and marked for death and they were allies of the Maormer and the Reachmen at one time.

...Also, there is a section for roleplay. You know that....

Ozan is presenting the perspective of his character of the same name in his game regarding the Imperial Legion, the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor. It's completely on topic for him to participate regardless of whether you don't like his method of presentation or the fact that his view doesn't mirror yours.

 

[Mr1cammando]

There's no "genocide thing" to forget. The Aldmeri Dominion's goal isn't genocide, it's at most world domination. If you equate that to genocide then you may as well say the Third Empire is dedicated to genocide as well. While it's true that the Thalmor believe the Altmer are superior to all others that doesn't even remotely equate to genocide. They don't have the Bosmer and Khajiit in internment camps completely disenfranchised of their rights and marked for death and they were allies of the Maormer and the Reachmen at one time.
Ozan is presenting the perspective of his character of the same name in his game regarding the Imperial Legion, the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor. It's completely on topic for him to participate regardless of whether you don't like his method of presentation or the fact that his view doesn't mirror yours.

Hate to argue, but what about when Delphine mentions that Malbourn's family was killed in "one of those Wood Elf purges we never hear about"? Isn't that genocide?

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Your racism is showing. Its no more rp for anyone to say I'm an Imperial and this is why or I'm a Stormcloak and this is why then for this person to have typed this well thought out argument in the voice of their character. I'm wonder if the problem isn't that the argument isn't in the voice of the character but that that character is a Khajiit.

Uh, what racism? I just thought it makes the argument a bit hard to follow when suddenly someone's talking about 'filthy Argonians' and calling himself Ozan the Khajiit. Also, pretty sure the Dominion wants to unmake reality and go back to being Aedra, and they think it's impossible as long as humans exist. Does that count as genocide?

 

[Ozan]

calling himself Ozan the Khajiit.

No. Ozan addresses himself as Ozan the Magnificent Bastard. If one wishes to criticize, then do so with accuracy. If one wishes to address Aldmeri genocide, still no. It wasn't Aldmeri doing but Thalmor.

 

[Dagmar]

Hate to argue, but what about when Delphine mentions that Malbourn's family was killed in "one of those Wood Elf purges we never hear about"? Isn't that genocide?

No. Purge =/= genocide though many who want to criticize those that commit purges are prone to committing the fallacy of equating the two. Purges differ in several ways including that the target demographic is not necessarily a race, and is often a subgroup within a race when it is because the objectives are usually largely political in nature, e.g. the Great Purge by Stalin. The scope, size and duration of a purge is also generally more precise and shorter in duration than genocide, which technically never ends until the entire race is dead or those committing genocide are stopped or change their ways, e.g. the Holocaust.

During the rise of the Second Aldmeri Dominion the Thalmor committed purges in the Summerset Isles as described in Rising Threat, Volume IV killing all those who weren't Mer as a means to get rid of all potential dissidents. Remember that the Thalmor took Valenwood by coup meaning that there would have been lots of Bosmer in Valenwood supporting the prior regime. It's highly probable there were a series of purges after the coup which could have included Malborn's family. While it's reprehensible it's not the equivalent of genocide and it's also not exclusive to the Thalmor either. In Hammerfell, the Forebears, under the sponsorship of the Third Empire, committed purges against the Crowns.

 

[Dagmar]

...Also, pretty sure the Dominion wants to unmake reality and go back to being Aedra, and they think it's impossible as long as humans exist. Does that count as genocide?

No it doesn't because there's nothing in the lore that supports this notion. It's nothing more than poorly supported speculation that repeats itself in various threads by those who like to be critical of the Thalmor, and the only basis from the lore for it I've ever read comes from an extremely unpersuasive argument based on Ancano boasting about the power he wields by controlling the Eye of Magnus. Just because he boasts that the Eye of Magnus gives him the power to unmake the world doesn't even remotely mean that's his intention let alone the Aldmeri Dominion's intention. It's just a statement about how the sheer power he controls makes any efforts by you and the other mages to stop him laughable and how easily he could destroy all of you.

 

[Eidelon]

Dunmer's are citizens of Skyrim. They've been living there for almost 2 centuries and they pay taxes just like any other citizen of Windhelm (implied by Viola Giordano if you give her the ring in the quest That Was Always There as she says that Ulfric should increase the taxes on Revyn Sadri as punishment for buying her stolen ring.)

1 that doesnt mean anything that they pay taxes, They say the fight for skyrim is not there fight and therfore relinquish any sense of belonging in skyrim.

No they aren't. Like other races, some of them are poor and some of them are not. Belyn Hlaalu owns a farm and can afford to employee a Nord farm hand. His house has a Thieves Guild "loot" shadowmark on it indicating prosperity. A house, by the way, which is still in the Gray Quarter because, not withstanding said prosperity, he's not allowed to live anywhere else in Windhelm because he's a Dunmer. Revyn Sadri isn't poor and neither is the Atheron family but all of them are only allowed residence in the Gray Quarter.

alright maybe they arent all poor..

The Orcs of Skyrim live in strongholds not villages or cities. Comparing them being wary of encroaching strangers into their fortified home to the attitude of Ulfric and some (not all) Nords in Windhelm towards their fellow Dunmer residents is a flawed analogy.

not at all, the only difference is wealth, the nords are wealthier than the orcs. so what, is it the nords duty to take care of the dunmer just because he sets up better business? The Orc strongholds are just walled in small villages, ive never seen any dunmer in a stronghold and there is a stronghold closer to morrowind than windhelm.

 

[Dagmar]

1 that doesnt mean anything that they pay taxes,

Yes it does. It means you were wrong in assuming they aren't citizens of Windhelm. You also completely ignored the fact that they've been living there for almost 200 years. They're citizens regardless of whether you're incapable of comprehending that fact.

They say the fight for skyrim is not there fight and therfore relinquish any sense of belonging in skyrim.

There are plenty of people in both Windhelm and Eastmarch that don't support the Stormcloaks. It's truly laughable that you think this is any kind of basis for the notion that the Dunmer aren't citizens. It's a complete fabrication of your mind that you're now trying to defend with desperate arguments.

not at all, the only difference is wealth, the nords are wealthier than the orcs. so what, is it the nords duty to take care of the dunmer just because he sets up better business? The Orc strongholds are just walled in small villages, ive never seen any dunmer in a stronghold and there is a stronghold closer to morrowind than windhelm.

As much as you would like to pretend that you can make persuasive arguments by attempting to distort and mutilate the English language it doesn't work that way. Words have prescribed meanings and not ones that you would like to pretend they have so you can use them to support poorly constructed propositions

STRONGHOLD
Synonyms: bastion, castle, citadel, fastness, fortification, fortress, hold, redoubt, fort

Strongholds are not "walled in small villages". They're called strongholds in the game for a reason. You're not going to see any other races residing in a stronghold for an Orc Tribe because it's sole purpose is to provide protection and shelter for the Tribe. That's why they're wary of approaching strangers regardless of whether you can absorb that concept or not. The Nords wouldn't be "taking care" of anything by letting the Dunmer live anywhere they can afford in Windhelm.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

not at all, the only difference is wealth, the nords are wealthier than the orcs. so what, is it the nords duty to take care of the dunmer just because he sets up better business? The Orc strongholds are just walled in small villages, ive never seen any dunmer in a stronghold and there is a stronghold closer to morrowind than windhelm.

Funny how you seem to define basic decency as 'taking care of them'. Is it honestly less effort to force them to live in a certain segment of Windhelm then it is to let them live wherever they want?