Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

I would thoroughly enjoy seeing Ulfric rise to his full potential. Despite the overwhelming odds and statistics, he may still have reason and fight left in him. I believe he has been broken, he just needs help to pick up the pieces. Something clearly made him go on his rampage, the Markarth incident and his lust for power. Maybe it was his torture and deceivence he suffered from the Dominion during the Great War? You have the dossier and the proof. With a bit of fighting and good sense, he might listen to reason. I have faith in the guy. He hasaa lot of potential. Besides, no one can be completely certain what goes on in his head.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Sorry if I repeated myself somehow.

Anyways, with training and discipline, the stormcloak rebellion could become very formidable. With the resources the dragonborn has at his disposal, it is very possible to turn it around for the better. Someone before mentioned all the guilds coming together. The player's choices in game can make that very plausible. Meh... the dragonborn could unite skyrim and become High King w/o much trouble. It would be a true test to make Ulfric into such a character. I guess I always favor the anti heroes

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Not trying to be sexist with all the "he"s.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

I remember a certain quote from parthuunax about overcoming one's less than good nature.

 

[Raijin]

And why are people so willing to enlarge the real measure of Igmund's culpability in the Markarth Incident ? He's obviously not a saint, as plenty of what happened after the Markarth Incident is his responsibility, but outside of that, he had lost The Reach to what was basically a large group of bandits, he tried to re-gain it (as he probably felt it was his duty) with the only man he saw fit at the time, and he got offered a bad deal which he had no choice but to take; after of course, The Empire comes knocking on the door, and demands that open Talos worship be forbidden once again, to which Igmund removes Ulfric and his militia.

From what I've mentioned, Igmund hasn't done anything wrong.

You've just answered to your own question. When you first enter Markarth you start to find out unpleasant activities that's going on in the government's hold. You have a Jarl who is heavily influenced by the Silver-Blood family. Instead of executing Madanach right on the dot, Thonar persuaded him to to stay his execution so he can then start to have control the forsworn by using Madanach as his prize pet. Since then the forsworn has been operating inside the gates of Markarth, even working at the Treasury House. I'm sure Igmund was aware of this in spite of his hatred for the forsworn. Igmund must of forgotten who killed his father during the rampage, and he still stayed the execution of the king of rags. That my friend is pure corruption at it's very best.

I'm not sure why you think Igmund hasn't done anything wrong when in fact he did. He as an Imperial supporting Jarl who used a domestic terrorist (since the Empire still has control over Skyrim) group of militia to retake back the reach.

Since the book "Bear of Markarth" is heavily used to picture Ulfric as a savage beast who murders innocent people and children the book also mentions:

"But the truth is far more revealing. Yes, from 4E 174-176, the Forsworn did in fact rule over the Reach as an independent kingdom from Skyrim. Yes, this was accomplished while the Empire was beset by Aldmeri Dominion forces and could not send the Legion to re-establish order. And yes, Ulfric Stormcloak did quell the rebellion without Imperial assistance. That much is true, but what the bards often fail to tell in their stories is that the Forsworn Kingdom was quite peaceful for those 2 years they were in power." - Skyrim:The Bear of Markarth - UESPWiki

So if Igmund didn't do anything wrong why would he hired a group of militia that was anti Empire to invade a peaceful kingdom? Igmund created this forsworn mess.

 

[feliciano182]

You've just answered to your own question. When you first enter Markarth you start to find out unpleasant activities that's going on in the government's hold. You have a Jarl who is heavily influenced by the Silver-Blood family. Instead of executing Madanach right on the dot, Thonar persuaded him to to stay his execution so he can then start to have control the forsworn by using Madanach as his prize pet. Since then the forsworn has been operating inside the gates of Markarth, even working at the Treasury House. I'm sure Igmund was aware of this in spite of his hatred for the forsworn. Igmund must of forgotten who killed his father during the rampage, and he still stayed the execution of the king of rags. That my friend is pure corruption at it's very best.

I'm not sure why you think Igmund hasn't done anything wrong when in fact he did. He as an Imperial supporting Jarl who used a domestic terrorist (since the Empire still has control over Skyrim) group of militia to retake back the reach.

Since the book "Bear of Markarth" is heavily used to picture Ulfric as a savage beast who murders innocent people and children the book also mentions:

"But the truth is far more revealing. Yes, from 4E 174-176, the Forsworn did in fact rule over the Reach as an independent kingdom from Skyrim. Yes, this was accomplished while the Empire was beset by Aldmeri Dominion forces and could not send the Legion to re-establish order. And yes, Ulfric Stormcloak did quell the rebellion without Imperial assistance. That much is true, but what the bards often fail to tell in their stories is that the Forsworn Kingdom was quite peaceful for those 2 years they were in power." - Skyrim:The Bear of Markarth - UESPWiki

So if Igmund didn't do anything wrong why would he hired a group of militia that was anti Empire to invade a peaceful kingdom? Igmund created this forsworn mess.

How can anyone "agree" to this ? *dissapointing look at Grimjulf*

First, the Silver-Blood family, which has caused half of Markarth's problems, supports The Stormcloaks, and the latter has no qualms about keeping them in power for as long as it suits them both, if you're gonna make arguments about corruption (of which I didn't deny from Igmund) then please be sure to address those that pertain to the stormcloaks, for they have great interests in supporting any endeavor from the Silver-Bloods.

Second, domestic terrorist ? I mean, what kind of a pro-stormcloak argument is that supposed to be ?!

Third, Igmund didn't hire an openly anti-Empire militia, he hired a group of soldiers under Ulfric's command, which guaranteed that he would be capable of having Markarth back under imperial control, nobody that's a king and becomes deposed does not try to find ways to regain their domain, you can make arguments in favor of the forsworn being a peaceful kingdom, but the reality is that Igmund was simply trying to bring The Reach back under Skyrim's rule, any assumptions about "greedyness" or "ambition" are straw-man, and they do nothing to help your argument in favor of Ulfric and the stormcloaks since it was precisely them who kicked the reachmen out of Markarth.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Well, at least my Markarth question got the thread feisty again.

I'll have to add to all of this tonight, I have the strangest urge to try blowing some minds.

 

[feliciano182]

Make all the faces you want. <laughing> I will agree with what I will agree with and disagree with what I disagree with. I do not need to justify myself to you, and it would be purposeless in any case, as your mind is made up and you will not be budged and it seems that you cannot even imagine yourself arguing for the other side. So I will respectfully agree or disagree for whatever reasons, but I will not spend time explaining myself to you as this would serve no true purpose. I hope this does not offend you, for I truly intend no offense nor even unfriendliness. Drem lok.

Surely you belong to the Bard's College ? Too much drama always surrounds you, weren't you saying you enjoyed debating and arguing and yadda yadda yadda ?

Also, I did not say I "didn't imagine myself arguing for the other side", only that you can't abruptly ask people to change the dynamic when everyone is clearly having a different discussion, I know, it's a "typical" exercise in academia, which I strongly disagree with, but alas, this is not an education forum. In spite of this, I did agree to do so, even letting you propose the first topic................which I'm still waiting.

 

[Adolf Stormcloak]

Well, at least my Markarth question got the thread feisty again.

I'll have to add to all of this tonight, I have the strangest urge to try blowing some minds.

You've sparked madness and let the flame spread.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

How can anyone "agree" to this ? *dissapointing look at Grimjulf*

First, the Silver-Blood family, which has caused half of Markarth's problems, supports The Stormcloaks, and the latter has no qualms about keeping them in power for as long as it suits them both, if you're gonna make arguments about corruption (of which I didn't deny from Igmund) then please be sure to address those that pertain to the stormcloaks, for they have great interests in supporting any endeavor from the Silver-Bloods.

Second, domestic terrorist ? I mean, what kind of a pro-stormcloak argument is that supposed to be ?!

Third, Igmund didn't hire an openly anti-Empire militia, he hired a group of soldiers under Ulfric's command, which guaranteed that he would be capable of having Markarth back under imperial control, nobody that's a king and becomes deposed does not try to find ways to regain their domain, you can make arguments in favor of the forsworn being a peaceful kingdom, but the reality is that Igmund was simply trying to bring The Reach back under Skyrim's rule, any assumptions about "greedyness" or "ambition" are straw-man, and they do nothing to help your argument in favor of Ulfric and the stormcloaks since it was precisely them who kicked the reachmen out of Markarth.

The actions of the forsworn can indeed be called terrorism... I forget of they are the same thing as reachmen, but they are hostile to citizens and seem to slaughter them when they get in the way. They also have a political agenda of taking over the reach by means of terror. A specific example could be when you first enter Markarth. That women may be a foreigner and a liar about her true identity, but she certaintly did not deserve death.
Next, the people who hired Ulfric to retake Markarth included terms they knew they could not keep. Reinstituting Talos? Why did they not just hire another man?

 

[feliciano182]

The actions of the forsworn can indeed be called terrorism...

Absolutely, though that's not what Raijin specifically said.

the people who hired Ulfric to retake Markarth included terms they knew they could not keep. Reinstituting Talos? Why did they not just hire another man?

I'm guessing Igmund was desperate and made a bad judgement call, though I can hardly blame him, time was of the essence if he was going to root out the reachmen from ruling Markarth.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

I'm guessing Igmund was desperate and made a bad judgement call, though I can hardly blame him, time was of the essence if he was going to root out the reachmen from ruling Markarth.

You could very well be right. I don't pretend to know all the details, but there are many explanations. Perhaps Ulfric just costed him the least amount of money? Whatever the case is, what is done is done.

 

[Raijin]

How can anyone "agree" to this ? *dissapointing look at Grimjulf*

First, the Silver-Blood family, which has caused half of Markarth's problems, supports The Stormcloaks, and the latter has no qualms about keeping them in power for as long as it suits them both, if you're gonna make arguments about corruption (of which I didn't deny from Igmund) then please be sure to address those that pertain to the stormcloaks, for they have great interests in supporting any endeavor from the Silver-Bloods.

Second, domestic terrorist ? I mean, what kind of a pro-stormcloak argument is that supposed to be ?!

Third, Igmund didn't hire an openly anti-Empire militia, he hired a group of soldiers under Ulfric's command, which guaranteed that he would be capable of having Markarth back under imperial control, nobody that's a king and becomes deposed does not try to find ways to regain their domain, you can make arguments in favor of the forsworn being a peaceful kingdom, but the reality is that Igmund was simply trying to bring The Reach back under Skyrim's rule, any assumptions about "greedyness" or "ambition" are straw-man, and they do nothing to help your argument in favor of Ulfric and the stormcloaks since it was precisely them who kicked the reachmen out of Markarth.

Just because you disagree with my post, feliciano, doesn't mean that everyone else shares your views. Get over yourself and quit with the disappointing look garbage. What are you Grimjulf's father or something? He doesn't need you for approval.

Theirs corruptions on both sides... Stormcloaks and the Empire. I'm not overly thrilled at the Stormcloak supporting jarls with an exception of Vinegar. To pin point the Stormcloaks with being affiliated with the Silver-Bloods is ridiculous as the Empire is just as guilty if not more. What about Maven black-briar? When the Empire takes over Maven becomes the Jarl of Riften. She has affiliations with both The Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood. She torments the town and threatens citizens with violence.

Apparently she has dealings with the Thalmor, and doesn't try to hide it either since she was clearly seen at the Thalmor Embassy during the party.

In the eye of the Empire The Stormcloaks are considered domestic terrorists. They've committed High treason and insurrection against the Empire therefor they became a terrorist organization. Now if you want my PRO Stormcloak argument I would proudly say what Ulfric is doing right... by driving out the Imperials out of skyrim and making Skyrim as an independent state and invaliding any involvement with the WGC. In the eyes of true Nords like Ulfric when the Empire surrendered to the Almderi Dominion they forfeit their right to rule Skyrim. Skyrim should be ruled by the strong, not weak.

LOL The Stormcloaks are an openly anti-Empire militia. When did you last spoken with Galmar? Igmund hired them to retake back the reach. It's just that simple. Igmund used the free worship of Talos as a payment to regaining back the Reach. When the Thalmor found out (After the Empire signed the peace treaty) that piss ant turned him over and had him arrested.

Thanks to Igmund and his greedy attempt to regain back his title of Jarl, He created a bunch of angry hornets that's flying around, and viciously killing Innocent bees to death.(Trying to be cute)

Hornets - Forsworns
Bees - Innocent people.

The hold was peaceful during that time until Igmund hired Ulfric to regain back the reach. Now he created a bunch of pissed off hornets that wants their land back.

 

[Docta Corvina]

In the interests of exploring and trying new things, I too must think more about Ulfric especially as it relates to the Markarth Incident. No matter how much I belittle or argue against the man's character, there is something to be said for him as a tragic figure. This is nothing novel, others have spoken about this before and have done so far more eloquently. Torture at the hands of the Thalmor would well leave an indelible mark on any person, one traumatizing and potentially even heart-changing. It's a theme I'm dealing with in my own work of Skyrim fiction, and it's one reason that he fascinates me even though I cannot support him. There is little doubting that the corruption of his purpose as a former Legionnaire makes him strikingly human and even offensive, because he so easily represents a betrayal among the worst kinds. But I likewise can't forget that certainly in ways, he was a proverbial monster that rose from the smoky realities of a war-ravaged Empire. And I suppose that's why I asked the question about the Markarth business, to try to get at the notion of whether or not Ulfric would likely have as stridently embraced the expulsion of the Empire from Skyrim if the events did not occur - was his taking up of arms revenge-fueled and if so, to what extent? Or, do we think he would have continued to support the Empire even post-WGC and worshiped Talos in a low-key fashion just as many of his kinsmen did and do? Or, is he a bundle of ambition and opportunistic tendencies that merely waited for the right "moment" to act? Would he absolutely have pursued aggressive action against the Empire over the Concordat no matter what? So many questions with no real definitive answers, as far as I can see.

Really, even those of us who fight for the Empire can have basic sympathy for his history. Reducing the character to a one dimensional caricature does the story a disservice. Ulfric is extremely controversial because he is multifaceted. Different people can see vastly different aspects to him at any given time, and it's part of the reason why this debate persists. If Ulfric had been a flat and wholly problematic figure lacking any and all redeeming or otherwise mitigating values, the "choice" of the civil war allegiance would not be as divisive. The passion would not be nearly as palpable. If anything, the civil war in Skyrim reminds the Empire that the Legion itself has long been populated by Nords, among other races. And that is something that makes the local recruitment for the current conflict that much more tragic and from the Stormcloaks' perspective, almost insulting. Pitting brothers against brothers, friends against friends - it turns one's stomach no matter which side one is on.

It's true, the Nords existed and persevered before Talos and undoubtedly can continue to thrive despite the Concordat. But perhaps it will take the actions of a former Legionnaire, who once swore an oath to the Empire and its Emperor, to remind the leadership in Cyrodiil just how precious Talos, Tiber Septim, really is to it. For he is part of their history and their identity. They must not be seen to abandon such a cornerstone of their collective heritage.


...So...how do ya like THEM apples?

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

I agree. I always enjoyed good anti heroes. They make for the most believeable and best villains. However, when one turns things around, no matter the odds... I think they make for the best of heroes.

 

[feliciano182]

Just because you disagree with my post, feliciano, doesn't mean that everyone else shares your views. Get over yourself and quit with the disappointing look garbage. What are you Grimjulf's father or something? He doesn't need you for approval.

I'm not interested in people sharing my views Raijin, I'm interested in people speaking cohesive arguments that reflect the reality of the game.


I mean, nothing personal man, but this is precisely the topic were you excel in your "straw-manship" and "red herrism", your insistence in trying to divert all of the responsibility of the Markarth Incident, from Ulfric and the Stormcloaks, to Igmund, is quite frankly astonishing, I mean, no matter how many people tell you it doesn't make sense, and that it doesn't hold any ground, you still push forward with it.

You could very well be right. I don't pretend to know all the details, but there are many explanations. Perhaps Ulfric just costed him the least amount of money? Whatever the case is, what is done is done.

You know what friend ? Welcome to the forums, and specially this fun little thread of ours.

I mean, in the 300 hundred pages I've been in this topic, I haven't ever seen someone suggest the possibility that there was any monetary exchange between Igmund and Ulfric when it came to taking back The Reach, thanks pal, that's actually something we could all think about.

I mean, is Ulfric Stormcloak someone who would take payment for his actions ? Or was the only thing he was asking was for Talos worship to return to Skyrim ? Does that make him more honorable or respectable ?

I suppose that's why I asked the question about the Markarth business, to try to get at the notion of whether or not Ulfric would likely have as stridently embraced the expulsion of the Empire from Skyrim if the events did not occur - was his taking up of arms revenge-fueled and if so, to what extent? Or, do we think he would have continued to support the Empire even post-WGC and worshiped Talos in a low-key fashion just as many of his kinsmen did and do? Or, is he a bundle of ambition and opportunistic tendencies that merely waited for the right "moment" to act? Would he absolutely have pursued aggressive action against the Empire over the Concordat no matter what? So many questions with no real definitive answers, as far as I can see.

It's an interesting set of questions that beg us to dig deeper into what was Ulfric's mindset before he accepted to help Igmund in the Markarth Incident, very interesting indeed Docta. However, I personally believe that his demands were very clear, he wanted Talos worship to be open in exchange for kicking the reachmen out of Markarth, and that pretty much indicates that he was clearly against what both the Dominion and the Empire were attempting with the WGC.

I think it's more like Galmar describes, they went to the Imperial City, took back The Empire from The Dominion, battled all of The Great War, only to then have to "surrender" to the enemy and then lose their right to worship what is arguably the most important god in the nordic pantheon, the entire thing was offensive to them, they wanted to win that war and make it all worthwhile, not having to "give up" and lose what to them was an important part of the culture.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

I believe people always have a reason for the side they take, good, bad, or neutrality. That my friend, looks to be a very good reason to join the stormcloaks^

 

[feliciano182]

I believe people always have a reason for the side they take, good, bad, or neutrality. That my friend, looks to be a very good reason to join the stormcloaks^

Nah, that's your friendly neighborhood nord showing off his mad bard college skills !

Ulfric is an evil that can be simply mitigated by the hand of men or mer, he is vulnerable, and that's all the matters, no charisma, no ideals, and certainly no conviction has ever shielded anyone from receiving an arrow or sharpened steel to the chest.

We can sit here all night talking and crying about the mourning of Skyrim for the death of Ulfric Stormcloak, but fact of the matter is, if he's dead, then the Stormcloaks are dead, sure, you will always have hostilities from those who are still "suffering" from the "betrayal" of The Empire, which was no betrayal at all, but their strength and their determination would be as focused as that of a blind mudcrab.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Nah, that's your friendly neighborhood nord showing off his mad bard college skills !

Ulfric is an evil that can be simply mitigated by the hand of men or mer, he is vulnerable, and that's all the matters, no charisma, no ideals, and certainly no conviction has ever shielded anyone from receiving an arrow or sharpened steel to the chest.

We can sit here all night talking and crying about the mourning of Skyrim for the death of Ulfric Stormcloak, but fact of the matter is, if he's dead, then the Stormcloaks are dead, sure, you will always have hostilities from those who are still "suffering" from the "betrayal" of The Empire, which was no betrayal at all, but their strength and their determination would be as focused as that of a blind mudcrab.

First of all, the man is not evil. I refuse to believe that. I would not allow the stormcloaks to fall apart, if only to repurpose them.

 

[DrunkenMage]

For Markarth there is nothing suggesting that Jarl Igmund knows that Madanach is still alive. Silver-Blood family controls many of the guards.

"I had Markarth. My men and I drove the Nords out. We had won, or so we thought. Retribution was swift. I was captured, quickly tried, and sentenced to death. But my execution never came. Thonar Silver-Blood stopped it. He wanted the Forsworn at his call, that I would point their rage at his enemies and spare his allies."

I doubt Igmund would allow him to remain alive if he knew. Unless someone can show me where someone or somewhere it says Igmund knows he is still alive.

Igmund recruiting an Anti-Empire Militia? Ulfric was not against the Empire yet, he went against Imperial Law after the battle not before. When he denied the Legion entry when they returned from the War. A war which he seemed to abandon, he was captured by the Thalmor and allowed to escape. Why he didn't return to his post is beyond me. More than likely under the command of General Jonna who commanded the mainly Nord legion.

Ulfric isn't a bad man. I bet before his capture he would of been great, an amazing leader. The Thalmor broke him and remade him to serve their goals. "Stormcloaks push out the Thalmor when they take over" Yes they kick out a few Justiciar's. When the Legionnaires mention they're what is keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim, it is true. The Thalmor agents are not the Dominion, the Dominion is their army which is being kept out by the Imperial blockade along the Aldmeri border. Most of the Legion is tied down on the border, if it wasn't then Skyrim would be a red tide as Legions swept across the land. I'm not going to say the Empire is perfect, far from it, but they made a decision to ban Talos worship to save lives, to end the war and rebuild. The Empire didn't just hand away Hammerfell, southern hammerfell was already occupied by the Aldmeri Dominion. The Empire said they could have the southern parts, while the northern parts would remain apart of the Empire. They didn't agree and started fighting, which would of started the war right up again. The Empire is surrounded by hostile provinces now, they can't just deploy the rest of their forces. They could not and would not leave Cyrodiil unguarded. I simply do not see how the Imperial Army which is below half strength, no Legion even has half their soldiers. The Imperial navy would be damaged after the naval warfare on Lake Rumare, and you're asking them to destroy the Thalmor? So to invade Valenwood and Elsweyr, keep forces to make sure the Argonians don't take advantage of the weakened state, then invade summerset isles with a splinter force?

It is easy to blame Titus Mede II because he isn't a Septim, but I have never heard of a bad Mede Emperor? In fact with what little resources they had, they rebuilt the Empire to glory. The Mede dynasty is one of the best. "Septims were better, Mede isn't dragon blood" The Septim dynasty had some of the worst Emperors out of all the Empires that have been. Civil wars happened, even infighting between the Septim's themselves. Perhaps people should read more into their beloved Septim Emperor's.