Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Docta Corvina]

mast3rlinkx

Well, someone said he is using racial epithets.. in any case he is prejudice or racists whatever, the real point is WHY, is it cos their skin or race?? Or cos they don't help in the war effort?? Would he be a racist in peace time??

I said he was using what amounts to racial epithets/insults as part of his belligerence. In Rolff's case, it was most definitely derogatory. Whether or not the phrase on its own has as much infamy relatable to slurs of our own time, I am not sure. We're not there. And I've honestly only ever heard it used when exclaimed in hateful speech from NPCs in this game. If I've missed its use elsewhere, please tell me where to hear it. As I've said before, I like to be informed.

However, it's indisputable to me that he was using it with a negative charge, when it was not necessary to do to make his larger point. The race of someone, especially ones you believe should be serving your cause, should not be made part of an invective. He lost all credibility with me the moment "damn Gray Skins" left his throat.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

Nobody deserves racism on the grounds they aren't helping the military. Apply that kind of broken logic to modern society, it'd be an outrage. Do you think people should be judged by the color of their skin, dumped into poverty stricken shanties and be the subject of hate speech and crime because they don't support the military?

Sent from HTC app Tapatalk

 

[nogz]

What has the color of their skin got anything to do with the nords being prejudice towards them cos they are not helping the war effort?? They are not judged cos their skin is dark, it is cos they are not helping in the war. And if you don't know this, in times of war things work differently. Even the romans understood it.. Inter arma enim silent leges..

 

[Docta Corvina]

Nice use of the Latin there - I'm a Roman historian and Latinist. I can appreciate me some Latin. Though it should be said that not all Romans found that line to be a good or acceptable thing. At the time that Cicero (who is the likely author of this quote) wrote this, it was a time of ferocious mob violence in the political arena of Rome. Late Republic era insanity and all that. Not exactly a shining example for emulation.

Once again, in Rolff's case, it IS at least partially about their race. If he was only concerned with their not joining the Stormcloaks (because, let's face it, if they sided Imperial, he'd be on their case to leave Windhelm forthwith), then he'd be berating outside the homes of Nords and anyone else who also did not take a side, or who sided against Ulfric. From what we see in the game, he does not concern himself with anyone but Dunmer whom he himself admits he finds suspicious, not to mention lazy. He's very singularly minded.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

What has the color of their skin got anything to do with the nords being prejudice towards them cos they are not helping the war effort?? They are not judged cos their skin is dark, it is cos they are not helping in the war. And if you don't know this, in times of war things work differently. Even the romans understood it.. Inter arma enim silent leges..

Docta Corvina

Tell me, did the Romans know this as well, like nogz is saying? Cause I don't think he knows what he's talking about.

EDIT: NINJA'D

 

[Dagmar]

...but what worries me. Is how Hammerfell alone fought the Dominion to a standstill. It makes me wonder if maybe the Empire is not that good of a military force and they were not utilizing the Redguards very well..

The Empire utilized the Redguards in the Imperial Legion quite well during The Great War. It was the Redguard Legions that eventually started beating back the Aldmeri Dominion forces towards the southern regions of Hammerfell and they may very well have ultimately pushed them back towards the sea had Mede not recalled them to reinforce the Colovian and Nordic Legions during The Battle of the Red Ring.

That decision was a crucial one as the Redguard Legions were the key to the Empire's victory in that battle. It was the Redguard Legions that initiated the assault on the occupied Imperial City from the west, taking the Aldmeri Dominion forces by surprise (probably because they assumed they would still be fighting the Dominion forces in southern Hammerfell).

In addition, the core of the Redguard forces that fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill after the White-Gold Concordat were battle hardened Redguard Legionnaires that General Decianus discharged under the ruse of being "invalids", so the Empire utilized the Redguards both directly and indirectly with great effect.

It's easy to judge Mede's decisions harshly regarding the White-Gold Concordat in hindsight, but he didn't have that benefit. Living in those moments, there was no way he could know what kind of reserves that the Aldmeri Dominion could call upon for a second offensive, and the outcome of the war front in Hammerfell was by no means certain at that time as a result. Remember that the Empire's intelligence network within the Dominion was annihilated when all of its Blade spies were captured and executed by the Thalmor, so Mede was flying blind in terms of knowing anything about the size of the Aldmeri Dominion armies behind enemy lines.

At the same time by the end of The Battle of the Red Ring, three entire Legions had been annihilated and of the remaining Legions less than half of the surviving soldiers were fit for combat duty. Even if Mede had sufficient information about the Aldmeri Dominion's remaining military strength, the Imperial Legion was in no shape to mount an offensive into Dominion territory.

The Empire needed time to heal and Mede did what he thought was necessary. In hindsight he ended up being the one who blinked during a game of brinksmanship, but think about how disastrous the result might have been if he had not done what he did and it turned out that the Aldmeri Dominion did have the forces and will to launch another large offensive. It would have almost certainly meant the death of the Third Empire and the establishment of the total dominance of the Aldmeri Dominion over Tamriel. Those were the stakes Mede was dealing with when he agreed to the terms of the White-Gold Concordat.

 

[Dagmar]

I really doubt that. Active military action in the civil war started not too long ago, and what the Empire had done for the past 25 or so years? Yeah, that's right. Nothing.

So what's your solution? Should the Empire have violated the terms of the White-Gold Concordat and incited another massive war with the Aldmeri Dominion? 25 years is barely enough time to replenish an Imperial Legion with a new generation of Legionnaires after the prior one had a casualty list that rendered over half of the entire Legion unfit for combat duty.

Expecting the Empire to expose itself to open warfare with the Aldmeri Dominion is akin to asking it to play a game of Russian Roulette where the bullet would be another costly war against the Aldmeri Dominion which, at best, would probably simply reset the clock back 25 years, leaving the Empire in the exact same position as it was at the time of the White-Gold Concordat, war ravaged with diminished resources. Taking one step forward and two steps back in that kind of fashion isn't an intelligent decision from either a diplomatic or military point of view.

The best time for the Empire to rescind the White-Gold Concordat would be when it's in a position to immediately launch an offensive against the Aldmeri Dominion, instead of merely waging a defensive campaign. Basic tenets of military strategy dictate that that would require an invasion force that significantly outsizes the armed forces of the Aldmeri Dominion, along with sufficient forces to leave behind to safeguard the Empire and continue peacekeeping operations. It's not clear that with its current holdings the Empire can even generate those kind of numbers. It may be necessary to bring Hammerfell back into its fold first. Even if the current population is capable of eventually generating that many Imperial Legions, it's probable that it doesn't yet have those numbers 25 years after The Great War.

In addition we have no idea what's going on within the Imperial Legion and the White Gold Tower in terms of making a decision about how, when and where to deal with a possible rescission of the White-Gold Concordat. For all we know the Empire might have only been a few years away from achieving the position it feels it needs to rescind the Concordat. For all we know the Empire may have been conducting diplomacy with Hammerfell all this time to convince the province to at least ally with the Empire if not come back into it, which would put it in a better position to rescind the White Gold Concordat.

The bottom line is there is a LOT we don't know about what's going on in Tamriel vis a vis the Dominion and the Empire. The game focuses only on what is going on within the borders of Skyrim, which makes any analysis about the dynamics between and the status of the two realms extremely speculative.

 

[nogz]

Docta Corvina

I don't think it's all about joining the army, there are other ways of helping. The moral support is just as good. But no, this is their new home and they are flat out saying "we don't care". Their homeland is destroyed, they have nothing and in any case they would probably be just as the same no matter Stormcloak or Empire. Well, put it simply if you fight a war there is no way you will be Ok with that attitude. The nords took them in the first place, gave them homes, jobs, etc. and what is their response? We don't care. Fine. Why should the Nords care for them anyway then? Still, they are not driving them out, they are not denying them work or food or anything. They still tolerate them which is probably as much as they can ask for given the situation. And I'm not saying they are lazy or anything but what if most of them are? Is Rolff a racist for calling them out? I have to go back again to the elf woman in the market, she moved to Windhelm, stayed and worked hard, made some friends, supports them etc., she is doing more than fine. Why the dunmer can't do the same? Oh yeah.. cos they don't want to assimilate and support their new homeland.. fine stay in the slums, your choice..

 

[Mr1cammando]

If I may have a bit of scale, how big is a legion? How many men?

 

[Docta Corvina]

Docta Corvina

I don't think it's all about joining the army, there are other ways of helping. The moral support is just as good. But no, this is their new home and they are flat out saying "we don't care". Their homeland is destroyed, they have nothing and in any case they would probably be just as the same no matter Stormcloak or Empire. Well, put it simply if you fight a war there is no way you will be Ok with that attitude. The nords took them in the first place, gave them homes, jobs, etc. and what is their response? We don't care. Fine. Why should the Nords care for them anyway then? Still, they are not driving them out, they are not denying them work or food or anything. They still tolerate them which is probably as much as they can ask for given the situation. And I'm not saying they are lazy or anything but what if most of them are? Is Rolff a racist for calling them out? I have to go back again to the elf woman in the market, she moved in Windhelm, stayed and worked hard, made some friends, support them etc., she is doing more than fine. Why the dunmer can't do the same? Oh yeah.. cos they don't want to assimilate and support their new homeland.. fine stay in the slums, your choice..

When I say "join the Stormcloaks", I usually state that as "actively supporting". In this case, I did not. Mea culpa. However, any tangible Dunmer support for them, even moral support as you mentioned, would likely be distasteful to the Dark Elves themselves and counter intuitive to say the least. Why should the Dark Elves, in their current reality of poverty and a ruling group that at best is apathetic to their needs, have any desire to aid the "movement" of those antagonizing or otherwise ignoring their plight? That makes little to no sense. As I've said elsewhere, it might buy them temporary "respect", if you can call it that, from Ulfric-aligned Nords in the city. But in the long run, should the war be decided in Ulfric's favor, what impetus do we have for believing that the Stormcloak government would have much if anything invested in the well-hood of the Dark Elves and any other non-Nords? The movement is itself focused inward.

The Dunmer (and Argonians) of the city are indeed working as they can. But it's a bleak existence. And as a result it's not difficult to understand how being limited in their opportunities in the city due to hatred and suspicion would chafe people. Allying (actively and figuratively) with the figurehead of the oppressive force is a far-fetched thing to expect. And as has been brought up before, in a counter-point about the High Elf woman, she's not a typical character and she's not a Dark Elf. She says she has connections, talked to the right people, etc. And knowing her affiliations with the Thieves Guild, she's not overstating that. We have no idea the full extent of her "connections" and to compare the experience of one person to those of another group with different implications is dangerous territory. We also can't discount her own personal feelings about the Dunmer, when we talk about her comments about the ones there in Windhelm.

I have to disagree that things would not be different if the Empire were in control - at least in Windhelm. Obviously the situation didn't crop up overnight. It's been years in the making. However, things are markedly different under Brunwulf's rule if you play for the Empire and take Windhelm. The Dunmer, as well as even other Nords, are noticeably more optimistic about the plight of all marginalized groups of the city. Jarl Brunwulf does, indeed, remind us that the change will be gradual. What took years to do will take years to undo. And that's an inevitable fact of the situation.

 

[Dagmar]

If the dark elves in Windhelm would have to pick their side, you know probably the side of the people that actually gave you homes and work in the first place, they wouldn't be any prejudice or "racism" towards them. When you first enter the city the 2 nords are being "racists" cos the elves wouldn't pick a side, it has nothing to do with them being dark elves.

That's total bunk. The treatment of the Dunmer by the local Nords in Windhelm precedes the existence of the Stormcloak rebellion. It's been going on since shortly after the mass emigration of Dunmer from Morrowind after the eruption of Red Mountain almost two hundred years ago. Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

That being said the general treatment of the Dunmer by local Nords is understandable if not logical. It is racist but it isn't that extreme, with the notable exception of the apartheid policy regarding residence. That kind of xenophobic reaction often occurs when there is a large shift in the demographics of a location in a short time. The elitist attitude of many of the Dunmer only served to exacerbate the situation. Mind you that's not a justification but an explanation of the situation.

However it's been well over a century, and you would think that attitudes might have mellowed over time. The fact that they haven't reflects a failure in leadership in Windhelm not only by Ulfric, but his father and his predecessor who apparently made no efforts to do anything to ameliorate the situation among their subjects, quite possibly because they lacked the character and intelligence to overcome such feelings of xenophobia within themselves.

 

[Raijin]

The reason Ulfric is weakening it further is because his war is eating up what little resources the Empire has left after the Great War. War takes resources, and the Empire had very little at the start of his little war to begin with. I'll acknowledge that Mede is not as skilled an emperor as most of the Septims, but he had a tough decision to make. He made the harder choice, and it bought him the time the Empire would need to build up resources to completely destroy the Dominion. Had Ulfric not started a Civil War, the Empire would have already begun rebuilding its military.

Lets just say in a figure of speech that Ulfric and his boys did weaken the empire. Don't you see the severity behind it? The Empire is WEAK. In the world of planet Nirin weak has no business to rule. In the Orc stronghold only the strong, the chef, are allow to mate and produce offspring that brings out the strong characteristics.

I agree with Galmar when he said that Skyrim should be ruled by the strong. If the Empire is weak to which an extent that they are then perhaps they should give Skyrim to Ulfric after he becomes the next high king, and allow him to rule Skyrim with the condition that Cyrodiil and Skyrim becomes each other allies, and that business of both provinces won't be interrupted as a result. Don't you think this would be a better approach? They would no longer have to fight against each other. After all this could be “in your face” to the elves since they would no longer have the authority to roam around Skyrim to hunt down Talos worshipers and take 'em to their camps because skyrim would no longer be in the empire control.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

In the Orc stronghold only the strong, the chef, are allow to mate and produce offspring that brings out the strong characteristics.

So The Gourmet was leading the Orc Strongholds? I never knew!

 

[Raijin]

So Gourmet was leading the Orc Strongholds? I never knew!

I meant to say Chief. A simple spelling error I'm afraid that I made I just hope to the divines that my spelling errors doesn't bring back the grammar/spelling debate again. Gods what nightmare what was.

 

[nogz]

Why should the Dark Elves, in their current reality of poverty and a ruling group that at best is apathetic to their needs, have any desire to aid the "movement" of those antagonizing or otherwise ignoring their plight?

Their current reality of poverty is entirely self-inflicted. What plight? Trying to leeching off as much as you can while not caring about a civil war in your own (new) homeland?? Why do you think that elf woman in the market doesn't have their plight? Is it cos everyone is being a racist towards her?? Or maybe cos she worked hard and assimilated into their culture and way of life? The only reason the dunmers are segregated is because they want to be segregated. As far as I can tell they only care about themselves, well guess what, other people just might get the same idea. Why is it Ok for them to only care about their problems but boooo if the nords only care about nords somehow that makes them racists and evil and not caring and bla-bla-bla.. What do you want the nords to do? Give them everything just like that? For nothing?

We also can't discount her own personal feelings about the Dunmer, when we talk about her comments about the ones there in Windhelm.

Well sure, she says it best probably.

Jarl Brunwulf does, indeed, remind us that the change will be gradual. What took years to do will take years to undo. And that's an inevitable fact of the situation.

Easy to say that when Brunwulf will be doing that while not fighting a war. And that's the fact of the situation. I really doubt that in peace time argonians and dunmer wouldn't be treated like everyone else if they work hard and assimilate. Why are they allowed in the city at all if Ulfric was such a racist, you'd think he would drive anyone, who isn't a nord, out of the city in days..

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

Last time I checked the Argonains are working extremely hard for the Nords, even receiving crap wages. That shows that even if you work hard for the Nords within Windhelm, if you aren't a Nord, you aren't going to get a lot of respect coming your way.

I'm sure the Dunmer see how the Argonain are treated by their Nord boss, and think to themselves why should they offer themselves up for that same disrespect.

 

[nogz]

They are not even in Windhelm, in fact, and last time I checked it was mostly cos of the dunmers, to prevent hostilities between them. And lets not forget about their love of Skooma..

 

[Docta Corvina]

Their current reality of poverty is entirely self-inflicted. What plight? Trying to leeching off as much as you can while not caring about a civil war in your own (new) homeland?? Why do you think that elf woman in the market doesn't have their plight? Is it cos everyone is being a racist towards her?? Or maybe cos she worked hard and assimilated into their culture and way of life? The only reason the dunmers are segregated is because they want to be segregated. As far as I can tell they only care about themselves, well guess what, other people just might get the same idea. Why is it Ok for them to only care about their problems but boooo if the nords only care about nords somehow that makes them racists and evil and not caring and bla-bla-bla.. What do you want the nords to do? Give them everything just like that? For nothing?

Wow, you sure are reading quite a bit into my posts. When did I say that the Nords should "give" the Dunmer anything for free? They are working for what they have. Because if they're not, where are they getting their alleged handouts from? Which Nords are doing this? Please do enlighten me. Tell me where to go to see this occurring. How are they (the Dunmer) leeching? Not wanting to take the side of those openly hostile toward you or otherwise apathetic should not be a shocking development. It is, in fact, NOT their fight.

The High Elf woman in the market, as has been pointed out time and again, is NOT a Dunmer. Her situation is not the Dark Elves' situation. We don't know who she knows in Windhelm and how much she or they pay to keep things nice and cozy for her there. Point is, she can say all she wants that the Dunmer just whine too much, but I'd like to know exactly what her associations and connections are in the city before I take everything she says as gospel. And besides that, taking one example of one individual (who's not even a perfect correlation) amid a plethora of examples to the contrary is ill-advised. She makes a point of saying how well-connected she is. We're meant to notice that.

Well sure, she says it best probably.

Pretty sure my point has been missed here. What I was saying was that her dismissive comments may or may not be motivated by personal prejudices of her own. We don't spend much time with her so we can't be entirely sure. But I'm not discounting the possibility. Really, it all goes back to my prior points about her.

Easy to say that when Brunwulf will be doing that while not fighting a war. And that's the fact of the situation. I really doubt that in peace time argonians and dunmer wouldn't be treated like everyone else if they work hard and assimilate. Why are they allowed in the city at all if Ulfric was such a racist, you'd think he would drive anyone, who isn't a nord, out of the city in days..

You doubt that he'll be doing what, exactly? Play the Imperial side. Find out for yourself. It's nice to finally have someone in power who gives a damn, as a Jarl should. Again, as has been pointed out time and again is that the Jarl, any Jarl, is responsible for all in his Hold. Not just the races he likes best. If Ulfric's war is something he (and others apparently) believes enables him to look the other way, then he needs to be out on his ass like yesterday. THAT is a fact.

And here we go with that argument, about Ulfric letting anyone in the city. It's the same argument about the Dragonborn being enlisted in his army despite being a non-Nord. For the latter, it's game mechanics and the very simple idea that Ulfric has need for resources and manpower in any form that he can get it.

Really, if he isn't driving them out overtly, he's done a damned good job of enforcing a status quo that encourages them to leave. Surely even you can't argue with that.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

They are not even in Windhelm, in fact, and last time I checked it was mostly cos of the dunmers, to prevent hostilities between them. And lets not forget about their love of Skooma..

What? The Argonians are working on the docks, which is part of the city of Windhelm. The Argonians are even working for a Nord who lives in Windhelm. And what does Skooma have to do with anything?

 

[Raijin]

I find it odd how the haters of Ulfric are quick to label Ulfric as being a racist when he never once said anything derogatory against 'em. He never said anything racial towards the Dark elves.

I tell you what. I make a deal with anyone who can provide me with an actual video or audio (Provide me with the name of the audio file so I can search for it myself), no editorial version, of Ulfric making a radical suggestion towards the dark elves, I would not only change my avatar photo to something pro Empire/Imperial (General Tullius) but I will also change my signature to something pro empire... perhaps something like this "Upon my honor I do swear undying loyalty to the Emperor, Titus Mede II, and unwavering obedience to the officers of his great Empire. May those above judge me, and those below take me, if I fail in my duty. Long live the Emperor! Long live the Empire!" for a month.

I give full permission, of course, to Rayven to change my settings if I don't heed to the deal.

Come on imperial supporters force me to litter up my signature and avatar with pro imperial/empire stuffs. Prove to me that Ulfric stormcloak is a racist base on actual facts. Leave the opinion trash to your self.

If anyone mentions the living conditions of the gray quarters is disqualified, since residents are suppose to maintain their living area, which the dark elves failed to do.