Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jeremius]

The thing is, the next GW might not have all the human races to work with.

The second GW will start when either the Thalmor attack Cyrodil again, or the Empire strikes at Alinor (A.D.'s nation). If the Stormcloaks win, the Thalmor can attack Skyrim and still be at 'peace' with the Empire (or Cyrodil, since the Empire really won't exist anymore). Skyrim is technically not at war with the Dominion because the WGC is protecting them from it. If the Stormcloaks win, Skyrim is seceded from the Empire, and the Dominon can just swoop in and take over. The Stormcloaks (a ragtag militia) and Hold Guards are the only defense Skyrim really has, against a superior army of Bosmer, Altmer, and Khajiits, so the Dominion would win.

And with Skyrim taken, the next 'GW' would pretty much be the Dominion vs. Cyrodil.

Do not forget what the American colonists fought the British. Wasn't it something akin to guerilla(spelling) warfare? Plus, knowledge of even the most intimate level of the land won't protect from an ambush that could come from anywhere.

Almost forgot, The orcs live in Skyrim as well, so that is 2 out of the 3 best warrior races in all of Tamriel.

 

[feliciano182]

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that either side is anymore right than they are wrong. Still not seeing any value to the Dragoborn in participating in the CW with the next GW will cause all human races to work together again.

Contributions to the discussion. None to be found here.

 

[Raijin]

Ulfric Stormcloak and the Empire wants you to vote for Obama so go out and vote

 

[Dr.Madness]

The Stormcloaks really don't like people who aren't Nords, so you may want to go with the Empire since they are more accepting of all races. There are no special abilities that you gain from joining one faction or the other; but you get rewarded with different kinds of weapons and armor for your contributions to the cause.

If you want to get involved more in the magic I would recommend joining the Mage's Guild.

Why does everyone refer to the College of Winterhold as the Mage's Guild? I understand most of them played Oblivion (like me). The Mages Guild is dead; talk to Phinis Gastor the Conjuration teacher about Necromancy being bad/banned and he will tell you the same thing. (Wow, responding to a Comment 8 months old)

 

[Dr.Madness]

I go will the Imperials almost every character. I practice Necromancy on most characters and Ulfric Stormcloak is a great thrall. He uses all 3 words of power of Unrelenting Force and its great having the selfish "True High King" of Skyrim doing my bidding. I almost always side Imperial for that reason, the other time I did was to test Legate Rikke, she is better than Galmor - Stonefist.

 

[Epic Keith]

Why is this argument still up and running?! CLOSE IT BEFORE IT REACHES 200 POSTS >:O

 

[Raijin]

Why is this argument still up and running?! CLOSE IT BEFORE IT REACHES 200 POSTS >:O

But that's precisely what were doing. That's our goals, and why we keep discussing the same old plops to boost up the pages on this thread

 

[Crooksin]

Do not forget what the American colonists fought the British. Wasn't it something akin to guerilla(spelling) warfare? Plus, knowledge of even the most intimate level of the land won't protect from an ambush that could come from anywhere.

Since you've compared the British to the Thalmor and the Americans to the Stormcloaks

1. Americans weren't vastly outnumbered, they had both an army and militia.

Militia (Stormcloaks) vs Well-trained magical army

2. The British were completely overstretched at the time of the rebellion with Canada and other colonies.

The Thalmor however, are not, and can focus their ENTIRE army on Skyrim.

3. Big reason why America won the war was the French (lets liken them to the Empire for this scenario), who kept the British navy away as well as supplied the Americans to make up for their handicap.

The Empire is by no means going to help Skyrim if the Stormcloaks fight them out.

4. The British had already laid the groundwork (colonization, immigrants, supplies, weapons etc.) for the American rebellion to be even possible in the first place.

The Thalmor have not contributed at all to Skyrim.

5. The Americans had slaves to support their entire economy/army at the time.

Skyrim is not in that same position.

So in response to your post: lolnope.

Almost forgot, The orcs live in Skyrim as well, so that is 2 out of the 3 best warrior races in all of Tamriel.

Oh yes the Orcs, the ones that have been forced into Stronghold clans because the Nords don't want anything to do with them. They will gladly help out if they have to considering how nice the Stormcloaks are to them.

Even with the help of the Orcs, they are all still completely fluffed. Its the Empire that stands any sort of chance.

 

[Jeremius]

Since you've compared the British to the Thalmor and the Americans to the Stormcloaks

I did not actually compare them to anything, you put those words in my post doing the comparison.

It seems to me that you thought I was specifically thinking about independent Skyrim, when the Idea of Gurellia (can never get the word right) could be used for imperial skyrim. Plus, I think it would be hard to actually pinpoint where and when an ambush would happen, you can't prepare for them. Like if the Empire invaded Valenwood, the Wood Elves know the terrain better than imperial troops would, which would geve them a huge advantage. The stormcloaks may lose in the end, if they are the canon victors, but the Thalmor would pay for it with high Casualties, plus forget Hammerfell and High rock. Plus it would give the empire the time it needs to recover and attack from the rear while the Thalmor are recovering.

We both know that it will end up being Skyrim that decides the victory anyways, Since the empire does not have the man power, and may not by the time the AD starts the Great War again.

I think the Empire may have done a bit better using Gurellia warfare to fight the Thalmor. Just saying.

 

[Crooksin]

I DID NOT SAY SKYRIM HAD TO BE INDEPENDENT! COULD BE IMPERIAL SKYRIM AS WELL, YOU MORON.

Sorry about that, but it seems to me that you thought I was specifically thinking about independent Skyrim, when the Idea of Gurellia (can never get the word right) could be used for imperial skyrim. Plus, I think it would be hard to actually pinpoint where and when an ambush would happen, you can't prepare for them. Like if the Empire invaded Valenwood, the Wood Elves know the terrain better than imperial troops would, which would geve them a huge advantage. The stormcloaks may lose in the end, but the Thalmor would pay for it with high Casualties, plus forget Hammerfell and High rock. Plus it would give the empire the time it needs to recover and attack from the rear while the Thalmor are recovering.

I'm a moron? Just take a look at all your posts and we'll decide that. Considering even though you are neutral but still sympathetic more to the Stormcloaks, its not illogical to assume that you were talking about a Stormcloak Skyrim. In any case, it doesn't change any of the facts that I put up, its way too vastly different to even compare.

Guerrilla tactics don't win wars and it doesn't stop enemies, it prolongs wars and forces the invasion force to think if its really worth it. To stop the Thalmor they must be defeated, as proven by the fact that they keep coming back even after being defeated by Hammerfell. Skyrim is a vastly different situation then Valenwood, with Skyrim being mostly mountains and open plains, much harder to instill a successful guerrilla force.

Like its been said time AND time again, in regards to a full-on invasion that puts the Stormcloaks against the Thalmor, Thalmor wouldn't win with high casualties because the Imperials are holding the Stormcloaks off (in their own territory mind you, like you insist) with only a couple of legions.

You insist in telling us all that the Civil War has no effect on anything outside the war itself but you continue to imply that it does matter in the end when a GW finally ends up happening, playing both sides are we? You also keep making yourself look like a complete idiot when you continue to post in here completely off topic with far from logical points. Comparing the Skyrim civil war to the Revolutionary war in the first place is, in itself, moronic.

Oh and btw, if you can't get a word right, there is a spell checker included when you post. I don't know if you noticed the red underline or not.

 

[Jeremius]

You insist in telling us all that the Civil War has no effect on anything outside the war itself but you continue to imply that it does matter in the end when a GW finally ends up happening, playing both sides are we? You also keep making yourself look like a complete idiot when you continue to post in here completely off topic with far from logical points. Comparing the Skyrim civil war to the Revolutionary war in the first place is, in itself, moronic.

Stormcloak, Empire, in the end, the Great War will get all human races working together. Simple as that, why I think it is worthless, as well as the fact that Bethesda makes the final say so WHO CARES ABOUT THE WAR.

Frankly, I do not use Guerrilla much, so could not remember how to spell it

If anything, The Redguards would make better rulers than Either the empire or Ulfric.

 

[Raijin]

They have a responsibility to the Jarls and their Holds, indeed. And they are to serve as counsel for the Jarls and to aid them as they are called upon. If you recall, it's Balgruuf and Co's first encounter with a dragon. No one knows what to expect. Balgruuf wants you to go because, I dunno, maybe it has something to do with the fact that you've been down this road before. You're the only one in the room with experience. Gauging one's actions wisely and calmly and rationally is the sign of a thoughtful leader. And him keeping Farengar back makes sense to me as much as it confounds you. Farengar has his role to serve; it simply wasn't out on the front lines in the very first battle. If you remember, he managed to show up during the Odahviing trapping to get "samples"....and we know how that went for him.

Just hear what the Court wizard say in Dawnstar, and her duties as Dawnstar's Court wizard. Yeah I truly have the experience with dealing with dragons.... by running away from them LOL. Way to go Balgruuf. Just because you see a dragon and came in contact with them doesn't mean that you have “experience” in fighting with them. You were too busy running away from the dragon, and not analyzing their weak spots. The fact to the matter is you didn't fight Alduin at the beginning of the game, you just ran away from him like a scared headless chicken. That doesn't make you experienced dragon fighter. Farengar would've been a great benefit to fight the dragon base on his experience in magic. He can also be of good use for the injured.

Are you really suggesting that Balgruuf is that petty? I've seen absolutely no sign of that. Even if he does have a longstanding grievance with the man, he still sees the bigger picture (something the Stormcloaks collectively don't do much of, frankly). He's got the welfare of his people in mind, as well as that of the entirety of his homeland. He's not an overenthusiastic cheerleader for the Empire, by the way. When he speaks of it, he speaks rather pragmatically and never once is there any slip of the tongue to the effect of, "OMG, that bitch Ulfric? I'm SO gonna get his ass back for all the BS!". If you hear that, you're either playing a different game with different dialogue or you're allowing yourself to read way too much into it all. Or you're just hearing things.

Pretty much so. Hes also negligible. I would think that he would be more caution about keeping a Daedric artifact in the basement of Dragonsreach, and not seeing that his son was being influenced is just flat out negligence. I guess the Oblivion Crisis wasn't a wake up call. The biggest threat that is in his hold, besides the dragon attacks, is the Daedric Lord Mephala aka the whispering lady. How much longer much longer does it take for Balgruuf to realize that perhaps the reason why his son has such hatred for him is in fact that hes under the influence of a Daedric lord? Is it when Nelkir gets older to the point where he gains access to the Ebony Blade, and then actually assassinate his old man? Because I can see it happening.

Considering that the policy has been in place for many years and things have apparently only worsened under his rule, which predates the start of the war, I'd say his asshole nature has been with him for quite some time. War can change people for the worse and I've no doubt that has happened with him to some extent. However I'm not naive enough to think all of his racial apathy and bitterness and pride sprang up overnight.

That's a matter of an opinion, eh? I suppose I can write my own as well Ulfric along other Nords of Skyrim have every damn right to be highly suspicious of their Elven residents. The elves (High/Wood/Dark) don't exactly have a delightful history. High elves wants to turn man into thralls and the wood elves would help their High elves friends into doing it, and the Dark elves aren't that far off . They view the Argonians no more than just plan animals.

Heres a quote taken off of Lore:Slavery - UESPWiki "We are disappointed that the Imperial Cult does not speak out against the inhumane practices of slavery in Morrowind. But perhaps you are right. It is by demonstrating our superior commitment to civilization and humanity that we best disprove the Dunmer's barbaric insistence that we are no more than animals." -- Im-Kilaya, Head of the Argonian Mission in Ebonheart."

So this suppose piss poor attitude that Ulfric has against the elves are completely valid. And yes war can change people. It showed just how dangerous the Thalmor/Dominion are, and how they're progressively trying to take over Tamriel as they firmly believe that they should be the rightful rulers.

As I've said several times now, Igmund is no saint. I don't think anyone here has ever claimed as much. He made a deal he thought was right at the time, in order to help save his city which was lacking Legion support due to the Great War and was actively being besieged by the Reachmen. He made the deal to save lives. Yeah, it wound up backfiring in the long term, it's true. And in subsequent years his image hasn't necessarily improved. But once again, that has nothing to do with Ulfric being any less of a jerk and an unfit ruler.

I don't know why you keep saying that Igmund isn't a saint. Just that I believe that you guys are spending your energy hating Ulfric rather then the man that truly deserve to be hated on for what he did in the past. No his “city” didn't need to be saving. According to the book “Bear of Markarth” the city was quite peaceful for the last 2 years and it bothered the man a great deal. Igmund didn't save lifes, he ruined them all for greed, and to become Jarl again.

Ulfric can't see the bigger picture because of his pride and his egocentrism. That's not an opinion I'm pulling out of the air, it's founded entirely upon observation of him, his dialogue and the circumstances he presides over.

Oh yes he does see the bigger picture. Don't you even hear any of his dialouge? In fact he said it himself that if he could he would retire from the world as he said this "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn.".

Blood on one's hands - the phrase (which you first used) strongly implies responsibility, not necessarily that Ulfric personally ran around slaying his kinsmen. He put the events in motion for it and has championed the continuation of them. The civil war, which he began by killing Torygg (this was part of his strategic plan, he admits that), if you haven't noticed, has pit Nord against Nord. When you're killing Legionnaires, that's who you're often (though not always) killing - not Cyrodiil-born soldiers. Any "true sons and daughters of Skyrim" shouldn't be so glib about the war, and so overly eager to canonize Ulfric for it. They're destroying themselves, arguably for one man's personal crusade. And it's all quite tragic. Especially given that the only ones who really win with such destabilization occurring are in fact the Thalmor. And everyone in Tamriel will have to pay the price.

Ulfric may of started the civil war by killing the High king, but it was fueled by the empire signing away peoples rights to worship Talos just to please the thalmor/Dominion. Just read Nords Arise! http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Nords_Arise! And understand the anger that came out of this book. This is how the Stormcloak soldiers feel about the Empire, and the thalmor. Ulfric doesn't need to go to the people for support... they go to him.

And of course you don't want to get into the Bear of Markarth, because Dagmar and Mr.Self Destruct have done wonderfully to remind you why it's relevant - as much as you and other Ulfric apologists like to pretend it's not.

Not really. The subject is quite tiring. I refuse to believe that Ulfric went around killing the elderly, children on purpose. In a hypothetical case lets just say that Ulfric did killed children who are old enough to hold a sword. Have it ever occurred to you that perhaps the natives to now known as the “forsworn” used the elderly and children as human shields? Same way like like the Taliban strapping bombs on children.

Oh yeah, how nice of him to continue to confine people to a slum based on their race alone. How nice of him to disallow opportunities for them to improve their environment there, to contribute even more robustly to the local economy.

Are you trying to say that Ulfric forces the Dark elves to live inside of his city? That they're unable to leave base on the “supposed” living conditions? Ulfric must be a terrible person, especially for allowing them to conduct business like owning a store/vendors and farms. Gosh Ulfric needs to be destroyed! What was he thinking? What would Ysgramor think? Those vendors and stores should be reserved for the nords, remember? And how dare he allow a Dark elf to own a farm and employee a woman nord. Thats just disgusting. I think I'm going to switch sides and go for the imperials, even after they tried murdering me, for the way he treats those poor Dark elves.

And I personally highly doubt he's "providing shelter" like a poor house. I have every suspicion that they're paying their bills in some fashion. Why, you ask? Oh, because, I have a feeling that Ulfric wouldn't tolerate squatters in his city. It'd be all the reason he needed to formally kick them out.

That suspicion is probably correct. They're paying their bills. That's why they work.

But yeah, guys, didn't you know? They have a roof over their heads so racism is totally valid.

If I was a dark elf I would be grateful to have a roof over my head, and food that I can eat daily... even if that means that I would have to put up with a racist drunk, Rolff.

It's extremely naive to think that if the Argonians were brought in and there were riots, that that wouldn't escalate quickly in all sorts of ways. I applaud Brunwulf for seeing the danger and acting cautiously and rationally before violence theoretically broke out. Brunwulf isn't Jesus, as much as I commend the man's intentions and actions. If troublemakers and angry citizens with pitchforks and swords get stirred up by their status quo suddenly changing again, right after Ulfric's death, you really think that those who want to express their anger in a violent manner won't do so? I would bet that even Ulfric probably didn't like the optics of racist idiots like Rolff running around the Gray Quarter and spouting his vitriol - because it didn't reflect well. But Rolff clearly didn't care, he acted on his hateful, spiteful impulses. And that, ladies and gents, is what Brunwulf fears with too much change at once.

While I do applaud Brunwulf for seeing the potential dangers regarding to the Argonians situation, the real danger lays a head. With Ulfric dead you have people with overwhelming anger in the hold. To the people in his hold he was their true High king, and not some Jarl. They were dedicated to him. The Stormcloaks aren't going to just vanished (as suggested by Rikke or Tullius, not sure who mention it after battle of windhelm) once their leader and second in command are dead. In fact theirs a great possibility for the militia to grow even further. Maybe thats why Rolff Stone-Fist is marked down as essential... maybe he will be the replacement for his elder brother, Galmar as the second of command to the Stormcloaks. Who knows. Once Ulfric is dead theirs going to be A LOT of grudges, especially to their new jarl, Brunwulf. I hope he has plenty of Imperial protection because this man isn't going to be too popular among his peers.

And seeing as Brunwulf fully intends to bring the Argonians back in and said nothing of hesitance on the part of lack of space, I think, again, we should put that notion aside. It's all about keeping his people, all of his people, as safe as possible.

He may not showed hesitance on the part of lack of space, but the fact to the matter is theirs not enough room for the Argonians to move inside the city. I can however see Brunwulf granting permission to the Argonians build homes throughout Eastmarch so everyone can be happy. It's actually better that way.

And yet, we keep arguing. Why is that?

Maybe because were having too much fun arguing with each other? Who knows.

Ancient history and mythology FTW. I'm an historian of ancient Rome first and foremost, but I dabble in Egyptology. Good stuff!

I tend to favor more on the Ancient Egyptian Go Ra

It's nice to see what you really think of me and my debating style, Raijin.

Now now I didn't mean to say it in a bad way. Theirs nothing wrong with your debating style In fact I respect it I have nothing against you so don't think that I do Just that imperial supporters here tend to intimidate the Stormcloak supporters. Look at what you guys did to Jeremius.

 

[daTomoT]

Meh, I alternate. Ulfric fo' teh Nords, Tulius fo' teh Imps. The other races? I just go random.

 

[azali100]

Just hear what the Court wizard say in Dawnstar, and her duties as Dawnstar's Court wizard. Yeah I truly have the experience with dealing with dragons.... by running away from them LOL. Way to go Balgruuf. Just because you see a dragon and came in contact with them doesn't mean that you have “experience” in fighting with them. You were too busy running away from the dragon, and not analyzing their weak spots. The fact to the matter is you didn't fight Alduin at the beginning of the game, you just ran away from him like a scared headless chicken. That doesn't make you experienced dragon fighter. Farengar would've been a great benefit to fight the dragon base on his experience in magic. He can also be of good use for the injured.

Whether you were running away or not, you have more experience with dragons than these men who have never seen one. You have seen what it is capable of. Furthermore, Farengar holds an important position in the hold that would not be easy to fill. There are plenty of inexperienced mages out there, but you need an experienced person to fill the position of Court Wizard. They aren't goin g to send him out to get roasted by a Dragon. Let me put it this way, do we send our Generals or Commander in Chief out to the frontlines? No, they are too important.

Pretty much so. Hes also negligible. I would think that he would be more caution about keeping a Daedric artifact in the basement of Dragonsreach, and not seeing that his son was being influenced is just flat out negligence. I guess the Oblivion Crisis wasn't a wake up call. The biggest threat that is in his hold, besides the dragon attacks, is the Daedric Lord Mephala aka the whispering lady. How much longer much longer does it take for Balgruuf to realize that perhaps the reason why his son has such hatred for him is in fact that hes under the influence of a Daedric lord? Is it when Nelkir gets older to the point where he gains access to the Ebony Blade, and then actually assassinate his old man? Because I can see it happening.

I've never heard anyone in -game complain about Balgruuf unlike the other Jarls including Ulfric, hell you're the first person outside the game i've seen complain about him, so I'm going to go ahead and say he is a good leader based on that and what we know.

That's a matter of an opinion, eh? I suppose I can write my own as well Ulfric along other Nords of Skyrim have every damn right to be highly suspicious of their Elven residents. The elves (High/Wood/Dark) don't exactly have a delightful history. High elves wants to turn man into thralls and the wood elves would help their High elves friends into doing it, and the Dark elves aren't that far off . They view the Argonians no more than just plan animals.

No they don't. First of all judging individuals based on the actions of a race/group is racism, and there is no place for racism in my eyes. Second of all most of what you said is untrue. The High elves do not want to turn men into Thralls. The Thalmor do, and the Thalmor are a single political group within the Aldemeri Dominion. They don't represent a majority. Furthermore, the wood elves did not join willingly, Valenwood was taken by the Thalmor, and the Dark Elves aren't even part of the equation. No idea where you got that part from. And yes, we all know the Dark Elves used to enslave Argonians. That was a few centuries ago. It doesn't justify any anti-Dark Elf actions in Skyrim's time frame. Do you really need me to bring in the whole USA/Slavery/Racism example into it?

I don't know why you keep saying that Igmund isn't a saint. Just that I believe that you guys are spending your energy hating Ulfric rather then the man that truly deserve to be hated on for what he did in the past. No his “city” didn't need to be saving. According to the book “Bear of Markarth” the city was quite peaceful for the last 2 years and it bothered the man a great deal. Igmund didn't save lifes, he ruined them all for greed, and to become Jarl again.

Are you really asking why people focus on Ulfric rather than Igmund. Seriously? Seriously?

Ulfric may of started the civil war by killing the High king, but it was fueled by the empire signing away peoples rights to worship Talos just to please the thalmor/Dominion. Just read Nords Arise! http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Nords_Arise! And understand the anger that came out of this book. This is how the Stormcloak soldiers feel about the Empire, and the thalmor. Ulfric doesn't need to go to the people for support... they go to him.

Can't blame anyone but Ulfric for what Ulfric did.

Not really. The subject is quite tiring. I refuse to believe that Ulfric went around killing the elderly, children on purpose. In a hypothetical case lets just say that Ulfric did killed children who are old enough to hold a sword. Have it ever occurred to you that perhaps the natives to now known as the “forsworn” used the elderly and children as human shields? Same way like like the Taliban strapping bombs on children.

You can't base an argument on evidence that doesn't exist. Can you show me evidence they were using them as human shields? A book? A character? Anything? No? Then you can't use it to support an argument. On the other hand there are books and characters that tell you about the terrible things Ulfric did in Markarth.

Anyways, using a "human shield" in battle of swords and spears is highly implausible.

If I was a dark elf I would be grateful to have a roof over my head, and food that I can eat daily... even if that means that I would have to put up with a racist drunk, Rolff.

Very easy to say when you don't deal with that sort of thing, eh?

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

Just hear what the Court wizard say in Dawnstar, and her duties as Dawnstar's Court wizard. Yeah I truly have the experience with dealing with dragons.... by running away from them LOL. Way to go Balgruuf. Just because you see a dragon and came in contact with them doesn't mean that you have “experience” in fighting with them. You were too busy running away from the dragon, and not analyzing their weak spots. The fact to the matter is you didn't fight Alduin at the beginning of the game, you just ran away from him like a scared headless chicken. That doesn't make you experienced dragon fighter. Farengar would've been a great benefit to fight the dragon base on his experience in magic. He can also be of good use for the injured.

Look at it this way, Balgruuf can choose to send a rather difficult to replace Court Wizard, who may not even be that skilled in the Destruction school, since after all Farengar seems to be more of an intellectual than a fighter, or he can send some random, as far as he knows completely unimportant person to fight a dragon, even if their only experience with dragons is running away they at least would know enough on what the dragon is capable enough where as Farengar knows naught about dragons.

Pretty much so. Hes also negligible. I would think that he would be more caution about keeping a Daedric artifact in the basement of Dragonsreach, and not seeing that his son was being influenced is just flat out negligence. I guess the Oblivion Crisis wasn't a wake up call. The biggest threat that is in his hold, besides the dragon attacks, is the Daedric Lord Mephala aka the whispering lady. How much longer much longer does it take for Balgruuf to realize that perhaps the reason why his son has such hatred for him is in fact that hes under the influence of a Daedric lord? Is it when Nelkir gets older to the point where he gains access to the Ebony Blade, and then actually assassinate his old man? Because I can see it happening.

Ebony Blade is hidden with in Dragonsreach to keep it away from people so that it cannot be used by the wrong person, as is written in the book sitting RIGHT BESIDE IT.

To anyone reading this: BEWARE THIS BLADE
It is hoped that the only people having access to this room should be the Jarl of Whiterun and his trusted wizard. If anyone else is reading this, please understand the magnitude of your folly, turn around, and never even speak of this room or this blade to anyone.
It has corrupted and perverted the desires of great men and women. Yet its power is without equal -- to kill while your victim smiles at you. Only a daedra most foul could have concocted such a malevolent and twisted weapon. But it appears that all who wield it end up with the crazed eyes of those wild men who roam the hills chattering with rabbits.
It is not to be trifled with. Not even the hottest fires of the Skyforge could melt it; indeed the coals themselves seemed to cool when it was placed within. We cannot destroy it, and we would not have it fall into the hands of our enemies. So we keep it, hidden, dark and deep within Dragonsreach, never to be used.
Woe be to any who choose to take it.

As you can see Ebony Blade was locked up to keep it safe since it couldn't be destroyed.

That's a matter of an opinion, eh? I suppose I can write my own as well Ulfric along other Nords of Skyrim have every damn right to be highly suspicious of their Elven residents. The elves (High/Wood/Dark) don't exactly have a delightful history. High elves wants to turn man into thralls and the wood elves would help their High elves friends into doing it, and the Dark elves aren't that far off . They view the Argonians no more than just plan animals.

Heres a quote taken off of Lore:Slavery - UESPWiki "We are disappointed that the Imperial Cult does not speak out against the inhumane practices of slavery in Morrowind. But perhaps you are right. It is by demonstrating our superior commitment to civilization and humanity that we best disprove the Dunmer's barbaric insistence that we are no more than animals." -- Im-Kilaya, Head of the Argonian Mission in Ebonheart."

So this suppose piss poor attitude that Ulfric has against the elves are completely valid. And yes war can change people. It showed just how dangerous the Thalmor/Dominion are, and how they're progressively trying to take over Tamriel as they firmly believe that they should be the rightful rulers.

Slavery has been out of practice in Morrowind since the time of the Oblivion Crisis. Infact one of the most common rumours in Oblivion is the decline of slavery in Morrowind and how some of the great houses have renounced the slave trade.

Ulfric may of started the civil war by killing the High king, but it was fueled by the empire signing away peoples rights to worship Talos just to please the thalmor/Dominion. Just read Nords Arise! http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Nords_Arise! And understand the anger that came out of this book. This is how the Stormcloak soldiers feel about the Empire, and the thalmor. Ulfric doesn't need to go to the people for support... they go to him.

It is also stated by multiple people that Torygg would likely have declared independence from the Empire if Ulfric requested him to do so, but rather than ask that of Torygg before killing him he just out right killed him and started a war.

As for the topic of Nords Arise, ever hear of propaganda? Chances are Ulfric himself commissioned the book to gain support. Every recruitment war in history had some form of propaganda involved, after all propaganda=recruits.

Not really. The subject is quite tiring. I refuse to believe that Ulfric went around killing the elderly, children on purpose. In a hypothetical case lets just say that Ulfric did killed children who are old enough to hold a sword. Have it ever occurred to you that perhaps the natives to now known as the “forsworn” used the elderly and children as human shields? Same way like like the Taliban strapping bombs on children.

First of all lets take a look at the evidence against Ulfric, as well as that for Ulfric from the main source of the the assault on Markarth by Ulfric Stormcloak. To do this I will bold supporting evidence to those against Ulfric, and underline that which supports Ulfric.

Ulfric Stormcloak is considered a hero by many for his part in quelling the Forsworn Uprising. It is said that when the Empire abandoned Skyrim, and the natives ofthe Reach rebelled (undoubtedly due to the Nords poor treatment of them), Ulfric Stormcloak and his militia was there to retake "their" land from the Forsworn. In all the bravado and epic yarns the skalds compose of his exploits, you would think Ulfric to be a giant of a man, equal to that of Tiber Septim in his cunning, leadership, and decisive actions.

But the truth is far more revealing. Yes, from 4E 174-176, the Forsworn did in fact rule over the Reach as an independent kingdom from Skyrim. Yes, this was accomplished while the Empire was beset by Aldmeri Dominion forces and could not send the Legion to re-establish order. And yes, Ulfric Stormcloak did quell the rebellion without Imperial assistance. That much is true, but what the bards often fail to tell in their stories is that the Forsworn Kingdom was quite peaceful for those 2 years they were in power.

True, some crimes were committed against former Nord landowners (often those accused of being the harshest towards their native workers), but on the whole the Forsworn ruled their lands fairly, and were making overtures to be recognized by the Empire as a legitimate kingdom.

In the wake of the aftermath of the Great War, you can imagine the backlog on stately matters the Empire had. Before a peace treaty could be resolved with the Forsworn, a militia led by Ulfric Stormcloak sieged the gates of their capital, Markarth. What happened during that battle was war, but what happened after the battle was over is nothing short of war crimes.

Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips as he ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him.

So when a "grateful" Empire accepted Ulfric's victory and sent soldiers to re-establish the rule of law in the Reach, it was no surprise that he would demand to be allowed to worship Talos freely before the Legion could enter. With chaos running through the streets of Markarth and the reports of deaths rising every day, the Empire had no choice but to grant Ulfric and his men their worship.

We allowed them to worship Talos, in full violation of the White-Gold Concordat with the Aldmeri Dominion (which recognizes the elven belief that Talos, as a human, cannot be one of the Divines). In jeopardizing the treaty that so many sacrificed for during the Great War, the Empire was wrong. But what choice did they have, I ask you? Against the Bear of Markarth, Ulfric Stormcloak, "no" is not an answer.

(Yes I know almost everything can be used to support one side or the other, but I decided not not omit anything that could be used to support one side or the other)

While much of this is directed against Ulfric, I know your main argument is that Igmund is worse Jarl than Ulfric (which is a nice defence for your side of the argument by the way, redirecting things away from the main issue when you know you are defeated and have little grounds to stand on. A clever debating tactic, but is no more than a smoke screen in actuality.). In reality, Ulfric stormcloak is no better than Igmund in this matter, yes Igmund sent Ulfric to reclaim his hold, but it is Ulfric who agreed to do so. It is Ulfric who committed war crimes, it was Igmund who left Ulfric to his own devices to allow this, yes, but it is Ulfric who decided to do so. Ulfric could've taken the city and fortify it and kept it under a peaceful, if military ruled, state of government until Igmund and the Empire had arrived to ensure a long term peace. Even if Igmund told Ulfric to do what he did, Ulfric could've said no. At the end of the day, it's not the man who plots the harm of another that is the most evil, it's the man who carries out the action without guilt or remorse who is the worse of the two.

Are you trying to say that Ulfric forces the Dark elves to live inside of his city? That they're unable to leave base on the “supposed” living conditions? Ulfric must be a terrible person, especially for allowing them to conduct business like owning a store/vendors and farms. Gosh Ulfric needs to be destroyed! What was he thinking? What would Ysgramor think? Those vendors and stores should be reserved for the nords, remember? And how dare he allow a Dark elf to own a farm and employee a woman nord. Thats just disgusting. I think I'm going to switch sides and go for the imperials, even after they tried murdering me, for the way he treats those poor Dark elves.

Supposed living conditions? When there is solid proof of something, it's not just supposed and more, it's a fact. Let us take a look at the definition of supposed, shall we?

Supposed, v.

1. Assume that something is the case on the basis of evidence or probability but without proof or certain knowledge.
2. Used to make a reluctant or hesitant admission.

We have many examples of proof of the Dunmer living conditions are no longer supposed, they are fact. Yes some Dunmer are allowed to run businesses and the like, but that doesn't change the fact that the only place they are allowed to live in Eastmarch is in the Grey Quarter of Windhelm, which is segregation by race, which is racism. Now sure they could try and move, in the middle of a civil war, on bandit filled roads, in a harsh environment. Sure of course they could just get on the next bus, oh wait they can't. Moving like you suggest is incredibly dangerous, nearly to the point of being a death sentence. It's even a danger to people like the Dragonborn, so I guess you should rethink that idea.

While I do applaud Brunwulf for seeing the potential dangers regarding to the Argonians situation, the real danger lays a head. With Ulfric dead you have people with overwhelming anger in the hold. To the people in his hold he was their true High king, and not some Jarl. They were dedicated to him. The Stormcloaks aren't going to just vanished (as suggested by Rikke or Tullius, not sure who mention it after battle of windhelm) once their leader and second in command are dead. In fact theirs a great possibility for the militia to grow even further. Maybe thats why Rolff Stone-Fist is marked down as essential... maybe he will be the replacement for his elder brother, Galmar as the second of command to the Stormcloaks. Who knows. Once Ulfric is dead theirs going to be A LOT of grudges, especially to their new jarl, Brunwulf. I hope he has plenty of Imperial protection because this man isn't going to be too popular among his peers.

Not all of Eastmarch is ready to get on their knees and suck off their "true high king" in fact their is likely to be many people who despise him as there are who support him, even at the seat of his power. So Brunwulf isn't in as much danger as you would think. Also the Stormcloaks will become little more of a rag tag group of glorified outlaws without leadership. They will eventually be stomped out and erased after a time due to becoming unorganized and unstructured.

He may not showed hesitance on the part of lack of space, but the fact to the matter is theirs not enough room for the Argonians to move inside the city. I can however see Brunwulf granting permission to the Argonians build homes throughout Eastmarch so everyone can be happy. It's actually better that way.

Have you ever seen those old cities that have multiple districts that are ringed in such away that there are layers of walls? The reason that is, is actually very obvious, when the city is too crowded people begin to live outside the walls, then they build a wall to protect those people. People living further in the city tend to be more protected by the multiple layers of walls, and so the rich tend to buy up property in those districts. What is there to stop Brunwulf from doing this? He simply needs to build a wall around the city, then remove laws restricting certain races to certain districts. After which everyone will be protected, and will be able to move throughout the city as they gain wealth. Coupled with the right to build your home wherever you may wish in Eastmarch it would create a very well structured society. Now that is the better solution.


Point is Brunwulf can make room so everyone can enjoy the protection of living in the city, safe from bandits and dangerous wildlife like huge ass spiders, bears, and oh I don't know dragons.

 

[Jeremius]

Squirrel_killer-, Balgruuf could also choose to accept Ulfric offer to free Skyrim or throw his own "hat" in the race. He does neither, because he does not care about Skyrim, but his OWN HOLD.

Wouldn't life be better if everyone was the same race?

 

[Docta Corvina]

Just hear what the Court wizard say in Dawnstar, and her duties as Dawnstar's Court wizard. Yeah I truly have the experience with dealing with dragons.... by running away from them LOL. Way to go Balgruuf. Just because you see a dragon and came in contact with them doesn't mean that you have “experience” in fighting with them. You were too busy running away from the dragon, and not analyzing their weak spots. The fact to the matter is you didn't fight Alduin at the beginning of the game, you just ran away from him like a scared headless chicken. That doesn't make you experienced dragon fighter. Farengar would've been a great benefit to fight the dragon base on his experience in magic. He can also be of good use for the injured.

I don't know what utility there is in speaking to the Dawnstar court wizard, as I'm sure she'll say pretty much what we both have agreed upon here: they're there to support the Jarl, tactically, combatively and magically - whether she personally wants to take to the battlefield or not. Am I wrong in assuming this? My point is that in that moment, Balgruuf decided that Farengar was more use back at Dragonsreach, rather than on the front lines. No doubt he would be useful for analyzing whatever they could bring back information wise and even materially, if it was ordered. I just fail to see how this is controversial.

When I say "experience", I don't mean that you start off with a black belt in dragon-bashing. And I think you know that. What I'm saying is that up until that point, no one else in the immediate vicinity has had any encounters with a dragon. No one has, for many, many years. That's why even so many Nords had dismissed them as a fairytale. It's not that different to me then if there was suddenly a raptor attack somewhere - a beast we all know should be long since extinct (barring Jurassic Park shenanigans). And if the only person who had actual knowledge of one having seen it and yes, having run from it, was in the room with me, I'd be turning to that person for some idea of how to keep it at bay if not destroy it altogether. I don't think that's all that strange of an assumption on Balgruuf's part.

Pretty much so. Hes also negligible. I would think that he would be more caution about keeping a Daedric artifact in the basement of Dragonsreach, and not seeing that his son was being influenced is just flat out negligence. I guess the Oblivion Crisis wasn't a wake up call. The biggest threat that is in his hold, besides the dragon attacks, is the Daedric Lord Mephala aka the whispering lady. How much longer much longer does it take for Balgruuf to realize that perhaps the reason why his son has such hatred for him is in fact that hes under the influence of a Daedric lord? Is it when Nelkir gets older to the point where he gains access to the Ebony Blade, and then actually assassinate his old man? Because I can see it happening.

I personally always felt like the Nelkir episode was somewhat...random. Balgruuf's not the first Jarl having to deal with Daedric influences in his city. Yes, his child is unfortunately involved. And I suppose you can hold all of that against him, but I see it as more evidence that the Daedra really do have almost infinite reach especially in such chaotic times, and no one is completely immune if they desire to touch you in some way.

I do not see however how this discussion about Mephala connects to your earlier point that he's just doing what he does merely to get back at Ulfric, and that he's an inept Jarl. That line of argumentation is incongruous with what we are shown of him in game. It doesn't exactly reflect well on Ulfric that people are being slaughtered in his city and the perception (among several of his own Nord citizens, by the way) is that he's too busy with his war-making to dedicate time or resources to investigating, which is where you the Dragonborn come in. But I would hardly use that one negative to indict Ulfric. When it comes to his rule of Windhelm, there is a clear composite to be drawn, there are several examples to work with. That's just not the case for Balgruuf.

That's a matter of an opinion, eh? I suppose I can write my own as well

Ulfric along other Nords of Skyrim have every damn right to be highly suspicious of their Elven residents. The elves (High/Wood/Dark) don't exactly have a delightful history. High elves wants to turn man into thralls and the wood elves would help their High elves friends into doing it, and the Dark elves aren't that far off . They view the Argonians no more than just plan animals.

Heres a quote taken off of Lore:Slavery - UESPWiki "We are disappointed that the Imperial Cult does not speak out against the inhumane practices of slavery in Morrowind. But perhaps you are right. It is by demonstrating our superior commitment to civilization and humanity that we best disprove the Dunmer's barbaric insistence that we are no more than animals." -- Im-Kilaya, Head of the Argonian Mission in Ebonheart."

So this suppose piss poor attitude that Ulfric has against the elves are completely valid. And yes war can change people. It showed just how dangerous the Thalmor/Dominion are, and how they're progressively trying to take over Tamriel as they firmly believe that they should be the rightful rulers.

As we've stated before, like 90% of this thread is opinion-based - I've no illusions to the contrary. However, I believe in trying to base our opinions on observable fact and traceable lore as much as possible. I know I have been.

As for the slavery in Morrowind, you once again seem to be insinuating that because it occurred there and at the hands of those who very likely have little or no connection to the Dunmer present in Windhelm now, the latter are culpable and deserving of punishment solely because of their race. Holding an entire racial group accountable in such a fashion is problematic, to say the least. This attitude of "oh well, the Dunmer deserve it" isn't doing anyone in Windhelm any real favors and it only strengthens the argument against them picking up weapons and tools to aid the Stormcloaks. If that's the prevailing attitude, then please explain why they should have any desire to help such people.

As for the Altmer, the ones who belong to the Thalmor are the ones you should be pointing fingers and accusing eyes at. There are Altmer actively fighting alongside Legionnaires in the Imperial Army, fighting against those agents of their homeland who seek to do ill and that is greatly commendable. Really, if the Stormcloaks' supporters don't want their side mischaracterized by broad strokes, then there needs to be much more of a willingness to bear out the distinctions between a race and a particular group within a race.

Personally, I find it rather hypocritical for any of the folks defending Ulfric's racial apathy and other Nords' outright racism to at the same time condemn that of the Dunmer and use that as justification for some Nord attitudes in Windhelm. The more I think about it, the more bitterly humorous it becomes.

I don't know why you keep saying that Igmund isn't a saint. Just that I believe that you guys are spending your energy hating Ulfric rather then the man that truly deserve to be hated on for what he did in the past. No his “city” didn't need to be saving. According to the book “Bear of Markarth” the city was quite peaceful for the last 2 years and it bothered the man a great deal. Igmund didn't save lifes, he ruined them all for greed, and to become Jarl again.

I have to keep repeating myself because you are the one who originally brought him up and continue to do so amid discussion about Ulfric, and because you suggested I and others have been ignoring Igmund's character failings. Ulfric deserves all of the scrutiny he gets, and then some. He is the one making war against the Empire, one which is tearing apart his own citizenry. Ulfric is, in ways, the man of the hour. It's true, Igmund has done some not-so-awesome things, but the fact remains that that does not in any way reduce Ulfric's responsibility for his actions and inactions. The only reason I can see for why you insist on bringing up Igmund is to try to whitewash Ulfric's negatives and turn the spotlight around, which simply does not and will not work.

As for Igmund apparently just being bored and brokering a deal with Ulfric to save his city needlessly, I have no idea what you're talking about. The history recounts that the Forsworn besieged the city and with the Legion understandably busy with the Great War, there were no reinforcements to send - hence, he made the deal with Ulfric. If there was no one to fight back against in Markarth, who exactly did Ulfric and the other militiamen destroy there? Shadow puppets? I fail to see where you're going with this.

Oh yes he does see the bigger picture. Don't you even hear any of his dialouge? In fact he said it himself that if he could he would retire from the world as he said this "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."

Many other leaders and politicians throughout history have said the very same thing, and assumed the same guise. It hasn't always meant that they were genuine, but rather were extremely calculating. One example that comes to mind is the Roman Emperor Augustus, who basically said something very similar. With Rome just having come out of the very bleak, bloody days of civil war and the assassination of Caesar, Octavian (before he became "Augustus") wanted to emerge as a uniting figure. He was very charismatic but also ambitious, and he essentially referred to himself as a "first citizen" of Rome to avoid appearing like a dictator or a king - things that got previous leaders killed. And the people bought it.

So yeah, I have heard his dialogue, indeed. And I am not swayed by his flowery words like that. I look at his actions, look at the realities we know he himself recognizes and the circumstances he presides over - as well as what we know of his history. He can make all of the nice promises and declarations he likes. We know that he's a man of political theater, as he himself repeatedly refers to the importance of presentation and how his legacy will be recorded for posterity. He's fixated upon optics, how something looks. And how it sounds. And he wants to make sure he looks and sounds like an honest and humble servant of his people with their best interests in mind, even though his own actions have worked to call that into serious question.

Bottom line: he's a damned politician.

Ulfric may of started the civil war by killing the High king, but it was fueled by the empire signing away peoples rights to worship Talos just to please the thalmor/Dominion. Just read Nords Arise! http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Nords_Arise! And understand the anger that came out of this book. This is how the Stormcloak soldiers feel about the Empire, and the thalmor. Ulfric doesn't need to go to the people for support... they go to him.

I have read Nords Arise! - it's a quaint little piece of Stormcloak recruitment literature. And yes, it articulates what many soldiers on that side feel. I don't really know how this is relevant to anything. No matter how strongly the words in the book resonate with Stormcloak Nords, there are Nords who are just as fiercely loyal to the Empire, who see Ulfric as unnecessarily imperiling their homeland even further with his actions. My point is that the constituency is still split and the civil war is doing little more than destroying Nords and destabilizing Tamriel to a greater extent, which in turn only helps the Thalmor - the very same enemy the Stormcloaks claim to despise so deeply.

Not really. The subject is quite tiring. I refuse to believe that Ulfric went around killing the elderly, children on purpose. In a hypothetical case lets just say that Ulfric did killed children who are old enough to hold a sword. Have it ever occurred to you that perhaps the natives to now known as the “forsworn” used the elderly and children as human shields? Same way like like the Taliban strapping bombs on children.

As I said, it is tiring because we've been around the block on this issue many times before. The book speaks for itself, as does other relevant material. You can choose to ignore it as you like, but ignoring it does not make it just disappear and it does not invalidate it from the discussion. Ulfric has things to answer for, there's no changing that.

And I'm not even going to touch the "human shields" comment, Azali pretty much covered it.

Are you trying to say that Ulfric forces the Dark elves to live inside of his city? That they're unable to leave base on the “supposed” living conditions? Ulfric must be a terrible person, especially for allowing them to conduct business like owning a store/vendors and farms. Gosh Ulfric needs to be destroyed! What was he thinking? What would Ysgramor think? Those vendors and stores should be reserved for the nords, remember? And how dare he allow a Dark elf to own a farm and employee a woman nord. Thats just disgusting. I think I'm going to switch sides and go for the imperials, even after they tried murdering me, for the way he treats those poor Dark elves.

When did I say he literally forced them (ie. at sword-point) to live there? Personally, I think he'd be happy to see them out, which would happen much faster if they were paid wages and otherwise afforded opportunities that allowed them to pull up stakes and flourish elsewhere. By their own testimony (to my recollection), they lament the fact that they can't just go back or go somewhere else. They don't have enough resources with which to do so. If they had them, the Gray Quarter might not look the way it does and/or many would go elsewhere. But since Ulfric is content to keep the status quo what it is, he's clearly not much concerned about anything except his own priorities. If only the Dunmer had ruby slippers, they might be able to click their heels together and return home like the Rolff types want them to.

And yeah, it's great that they are "allowed" to own their own businesses the same way as Nords. I mean, after all, a leader wants what's best for all of his Hold's people, right? I mean, it would seem to me that a bustling local economy (one nourished by all) would help facilitate his war-making. So for even that selfish purpose alone, he should be giving at least a single damn about the state of the Gray Quarter.

But once again, apparently once you've got a roof over your head and allowed to run your own business albeit one stifled by racially based restrictions and consequential comparative lack of patronage, racism ceases to exist. No worries, right?

And of course the Windhelm Nords respect hard work and reward it...unless you're an Argonian. In that case, your scaly behind can stay out on the docks and keep unloading those ships. Racism? What racism? It's all good...

That suspicion is probably correct. They're paying their bills. That's why they work.

...Which refutes your earlier insinuations about how Ulfric is doing it all out of naught but the goodness of his heart. It's been argued by you and others before that the Dunmer were not doing anything but expecting handouts. Show me, then, what handouts they are expecting. The meager wages they do earn provide them with the food and shelter they have - which you just agreed with me on.

If I was a dark elf I would be grateful to have a roof over my head, and food that I can eat daily... even if that means that I would have to put up with a racist drunk, Rolff.

How do you know they aren't grateful to have food and shelter? What they're objecting to, as anyone would, is the racially based restrictions to their lives, and the associated treatment they receive. Most anyone would take issue with that, especially when all they're trying to do is survive, to make their way as best they can.

While I do applaud Brunwulf for seeing the potential dangers regarding to the Argonians situation, the real danger lays a head. With Ulfric dead you have people with overwhelming anger in the hold. To the people in his hold he was their true High king, and not some Jarl. They were dedicated to him. The Stormcloaks aren't going to just vanished (as suggested by Rikke or Tullius, not sure who mention it after battle of windhelm) once their leader and second in command are dead. In fact theirs a great possibility for the militia to grow even further. Maybe thats why Rolff Stone-Fist is marked down as essential... maybe he will be the replacement for his elder brother, Galmar as the second of command to the Stormcloaks. Who knows. Once Ulfric is dead theirs going to be A LOT of grudges, especially to their new jarl, Brunwulf. I hope he has plenty of Imperial protection because this man isn't going to be too popular among his peers.

I agree that there is going to be bad blood simmering for a while. I have no doubt. And yes, it is what Rikke and Tullius warn you of at the end of the questline. Yeah, Brunwulf would likely be seen as an agent of the new change that comes with an Imperial victory. But he doesn't seem personally scared of it, in fact his expressed fears are for those among his constituency whom he knows would be targeted. Competent leaders are aware of such threats and they act on what they know of them. It may be awhile before people who are bitter about Ulfric's defeat finally come around to the idea of Brunwulf's rule, but he has stated his intent to roll out change slowly and responsibly. We already have Dunmer NPC statements about their lives improving with his takeover. I don't think we have details as to what laws were changed, but it's a welcome start. The Argonians will arrive at a similar place eventually.

He may not showed hesitance on the part of lack of space, but the fact to the matter is theirs not enough room for the Argonians to move inside the city. I can however see Brunwulf granting permission to the Argonians build homes throughout Eastmarch so everyone can be happy. It's actually better that way.

I don't know why you assume that there's no space at all. As mentioned, the cities are scaled down and if we are to think of it in more of a realistic capacity, the city may be well stocked with people but it's going to be larger than what we see of it in game. I have not heard any NPCs complain about lack of space in the city in any context - if I've missed any, let me know. And that's why I don't think it's the issue. If it could be argued, I would think that we'd hear it used by local Nords as a pretense for keeping the Argonians on the outside.

Maybe because were having too much fun arguing with each other? Who knows.

Could be, lol.

Now now I didn't mean to say it in a bad way. Theirs nothing wrong with your debating style

In fact I respect it

I have nothing against you so don't think that I do

Just that imperial supporters here tend to intimidate the Stormcloak supporters. Look at what you guys did to Jeremius.

...What "we" did to Jeremius? You sound like we tarred and feathered people or something.

 

[Jeremius]

...What "we" did to Jeremius? You sound like we tarred and feathered people or something.

It is okay Docta, I have stated my opinion that the war is a piece of Biased malarky and that it does not even deserve to be a quest line, but people see it as important because they think their choices matter.

This is not bioware people, where you can import the game world, Bethesda will likely choose the Empire to win because they want to and we will have to live with it.

Plus the whole start seems like Ulfric and his boys got set up. I Applaud Tulius for his cunning in using an inside source to find out EXACTLY where he'd be. the execution of Roggvir may be justified, but the fact remains that people Assumed that he knew at the time, when there is no evidence to support that Ulfric told him he would Kill Torygg, thus he got killed for doing his job, as well.

 

[azali100]

Squirrel_killer-, Balgruuf could also choose to accept Ulfric offer to free Skyrim or throw his own "hat" in the race. He does neither, because he does not care about Skyrim, but his OWN HOLD.

Wouldn't life be better if everyone was the same race?

That's his job. Taking care of his hold. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about his province as a whole.

Why would he take Ulfric's offer? Threats are no way to win support. Ulfric gave him an ultimatum: "Join or I will invade your hold". Aren't you one of the people that was saying the Empire should have fought on instead of signing the WGC? Well same thing. Fight or give in to threats.

 

[Jeremius]

That's his job. Taking care of his hold. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about his province as a whole.

Why would he take Ulfric's offer? Threats are no way to win support. Ulfric gave him an ultimatum: "Join or I will invade your hold". Aren't you one of the people that was saying the Empire should have fought on instead of signing the WGC? Well same thing. Fight or give in to threats.

What if the empire did that? Balgruuf would side with Ulfric in a second. He and every other Jarl in the game wants one thing, and that is to keep his throne.