Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Raijin]

To be fair, that was one Captian who seemed to be ignoring the Legions own rules, and the only surviving soldier apologizes for everything. The Stormcloaks entire agenda boils down to how elves suck. My Dovahkiin has no place in the world they want.

Excuses excuse and more excuses. The fact to the matter is the captain was bold enough to exhibit such savage behavior right in front of her boss, General Tullius. This tells me a lot about the imperial legion when subordinates shows lack of fear when showing their asses right in front of the boss. Tell me something... if you were at work... would you show your ass right in front of your boss? Most likely no because you would get fired.

Oh and the Imperial legion in Skyrim isn't exactly friendly to the residents. Go ask Angi what she thinks about them.... and how 2 imperial soldiers killed her entire family in Helgan prior to the dragon attack because they had the "I'm above the law" mentality.

As far as the Stormcloaks entire agenda boils down to this... They're at war with the elves.. The elves already determine that they want to be superior over man... and want to be the rightful rulers of Tamriel. They've already defeated the Empire by forcing them to sign a treaty that clearly favors them by prohibiting the worship of Talos.

 

[Raijin]

So what? We have no idea what the standards of the adjudication are in the Empire, or anywhere else in Tamriel for that matter. The Empire's methods are no less or more enlightened than anywhere else in the world as far as we know. What we do know is that what Ulfric did was high treason punishable by death under Imperial Law. Torygg's consent is completely irrelevant as has been pointed out to you numerous times before. This is beyond dispute and simpy a matter of undeniable fact, so it doesn't really matter whether the Empire goes through the motions of a trial. Ulfric's guilty and therefore subject to execution irrespective of any trial.

Torygg made a vocal agreement accepting the duel against Ulfric therefor accusing Ulfric of being a murderer is irrelevant. Also you're not guilty until after being convicted of the crime. At the beginning of the game I believe it was Ralof that said that they wouldn't give Ulfric a fair trial.

 

[Dagmar]

Torygg made a vocal agreement accepting the duel against Ulfric therefor accusing Ulfric of being a murderer is irrelevant.

No. What's irrelevant (again) is your statement. He's guilty of high treason not murder. Torygg's acceptance of a duel doesn't change that fact. Any harm committed against an allegiated sovereign of the Empire is high treason. There are no exceptions recognized under Imperial Law.

At the beginning of the game I believe it was Ralof that said that they wouldn't give Ulfric a fair trial.

Again, so what? It implies nothing about a right to due process which is an extremely contemporary concept in jurisprudence that never existed until the late half of the 20th century. There's no situation in which a trial is going to result in anything other than Ulfric's execution and there's no basis to presume it's anything more than a procedural waiver.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Excuses excuse and more excuses. The fact to the matter is the captain was bold enough to exhibit such savage behavior right in front of her boss, General Tullius. This tells me a lot about the imperial legion when subordinates shows lack of fear when showing their asses right in front of the boss. Tell me something... if you were at work... would you show your ass right in front of your boss? Most likely no because you would get fired.

Oh and the Imperial legion in Skyrim isn't exactly friendly to the residents. Go ask Angi what she thinks about them.... and how 2 imperial soldiers killed her entire family in Helgan prior to the dragon attack because they had the "I'm above the law" mentality.

As far as the Stormcloaks entire agenda boils down to this... They're at war with the elves.. The elves already determine that they want to be superior over man... and want to be the rightful rulers of Tamriel. They've already defeated the Empire by forcing them to sign a treaty that clearly favors them by prohibiting the worship of Talos.

Look who's talking about excuses. They're not at war with elves. They're at war with the Dominion, which has a lot of elves. A lot of your precious Stormcloaks would probably love to kill a High Elf on sight if they could. Does that mean I hate humans? And as for that dual? Unfric backed him into a corner. A good ruler doesn't fight, he's a politician. But Ulfric used an old custom to remove an opposition. And the Talos ban. The Empire was letting people worship before the Stormcloaks. Then Ulfric was all 'I'm gonna worship him if I want! What are you gonna do about it?' What they did is send Justiciars to pay Skyrim a little visit, and the Empire wasn't strong enough to start another war. If you look at the lore, the Stormcloacks were destroying everything they claimed to protect, and abandoned their honor to the Empire just because they hurt their feelings. You know, honor? That stuff the Nords are so famous for?

 

[Raijin]

No. What's irrelevant (again) is your statement. He's guilty of high treason not murder. Torygg's acceptance of a duel doesn't change that fact. Any harm committed against an allegiated sovereign of the Empire is high treason. There are no exceptions recognized under Imperial Law.

The Empire is just as guilty if not more of high treason than Ulfric. Their the ones that turn their backs on the talos worshipers... their own people to please their elven masters.

Again, so what? It implies nothing about a right to due process which is an extremely contemporary concept in jurisprudence that never existed in until the late half of the 20th century. There's no situation in which a trial is going to result in anything other than Ulfric's execution and there's no basis to presume it's anything more than a procedural waiver.

So are you OK with executing people that haven't been convicted of a crime? If the Empire is going to execute Ulfric then at least give him a fair trial. I don't care who or what you are you deserve a fair trial. Even the Nazi officers had their trial prior to being executed.

Look who's talking about excuses. They're not at war with elves. They're at war with the Dominion, which has a lot of elves. A lot of your precious Stormcloaks would probably love to kill a High Elf on sight if they could. Does that mean I hate humans? And as for that dual? Unfric backed him into a corner. A good ruler doesn't fight, he's a politician. But Ulfric used an old custom to remove an opposition. And the Talos ban. The Empire was letting people worship before the Stormcloaks. Then Ulfric was all 'I'm gonna worship him if I want! What are you gonna do about it?' What they did is send Justiciars to pay Skyrim a little visit, and the Empire wasn't strong enough to start another war. If you look at the lore, the Stormcloacks were destroying everything they claimed to protect, and abandoned their honor to the Empire just because they hurt their feelings. You know, honor? That stuff the Nords are so famous for?

Yes they are at war with the elves. What are the Dominion? A bunch of snobby elves that thinks their better than everyone else but their own kind. The Empire isn't on the Stormcloaks high agenda... it's to declare war against the Dominion. The Stormcloaks lost their honor to the Mede Empire after they witnessed their Emperor signing a treaty to the elves to ban the worship of Talos. If you read your lore you realize that Tiber Septim founded the Empire. The Stormcloaks don't hate the Empire... just hate at what it became with weak leadership. Hammerfell is no longer a province of the Empire because they, like the Stormcloaks, defy the White-Gold Concordat and forced Titus Mede II to release Hammerfell as its own, independent state.

 

[123]

You seem to understand absolutely nothing about how the politics of Tamriel.

What the Empire is protecting is LIVES, not the freedom to worship Talos in the streets. This was never about religion, it was about making sure as many people could stay alive as possible. If the Empire hadn't done what it did, there would be far less 'freedom' in Skyrim than there is now, and far less people. So you think that the Stormcloaks, a small ragtag group of untrained (LORE) soldiers, would defeat the Dominion? If the Empire can't do it, you really think the Stormcloaks would?

The Empire doesn't like the Dominion. They HAD to do what they did, because if they didn't, the amazing Ulfric Stormcloak wouldn't have had the life or freedom to start his little rebellion. They were protecting as many people as they could.

It's like you're blaming the Continental Army for avoiding battles with Great Britain, and then claiming that if you cut the colonies in half one side can do it better. The Empire is recovering, trying to keep Skyrim from seceding so they can actually have a real chance of defeating the Dominion. Skyrim will NEVER defeat them on their own, nor will they with Hammerfell.

You think any other provinces are going to help Skyrim? Fat chance. Argonia, which is growing significantly, is far more likely to just side with the Dominion and get revenge for unjustified racism that Skyrim enacted upon them. The exact same can be said for the Khajiit. The Dunmer, as scattered as they are, wouldn't help the Stormcloaks either, at least, not many of them would.

All I can say in closing is that the Stormcloak army can't completely defeat the Dominion on its own. Only the Empire, with combined forces which it CAN achieve, would ever have the strength and numbers to defeat them. Ulfric is a racist liar, hiding behind the cause of 'freedom' and the 'true sons and daughters' when in reality, he wants nothing more than the fleeting moments of power he would be granted if he won.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Even other elves hate the Dominion! Comparing elves to Aldmeri is like comparing Germans to Nazis. And if you hate the idea of just killing Ulfric so much, what about the right to just kill or usurp a ruler if you feel like it? Or is that all right because it's all nice and honorable? The White-Gold Concordant saved pretty much every province they had. The Dominion killed te Blades. Remember those? Expert spies, tacticians and combatants. Appeasement was necessary for the sake of survival. And let's look at the current situation in Skyrim? Civil war across the land, Jucticiar squads roaming the holds. You can boast that picture of Ulfric on his throne, but none of that was happening until he started acting out. Talos was still in their hearts, but that wasn't enough for him, so he started another war.

 

[Dagmar]

The Empire is just as guilty if not more of high treason than Ulfric. Their the ones that turn their backs on the talos worshipers... their own people to please their elven masters.

Aside from the fact that it's nothing more than your biased opinion, that's not how high treason is defined under Imperial Law which makes this statement as a whole completely false.

So are you OK with executing people that haven't been convicted of a crime?.

You do realize that Skyrim isn't real don't you? Because couching the question in this manner makes it sound like you believe it's actually real and happening in our world. The correct way to form the question is "In a fictitious fantasy world where the concepts of contemporary due process are non-existent, execution without the formalities of a trial is normative behavior, and the person being executed for a crime is guilty beyond all dispute of having committed the crime, is my character okay with that execution?"

Take a wild guess at what my answer is going to be (or any other person's answer is going to be who can actually immerse themselves into the game to roleplay a character that actually acts like he or she lives in it rather than as if he or she had been magically whisked away to Tamriel from 21st century Earth).

 

[Crooksin]

Excuses excuse and more excuses. The fact to the matter is the captain was bold enough to exhibit such savage behavior right in front of her boss, General Tullius. This tells me a lot about the imperial legion when subordinates shows lack of fear when showing their asses right in front of the boss.

Oh and the Imperial legion in Skyrim isn't exactly friendly to the residents. Go ask Angi what she thinks about them.... and how 2 imperial soldiers killed her entire family in Helgan prior to the dragon attack because they had the "I'm above the law" mentality.

Oh wow. So you walk into Windhelm and saw a couple of nords "harassing" a dark elf by accusing her of being an Imperial spy for refusing to help the Stormcloaks. You as a high elf (My high elf didn't care one way or another) got so offended by what you saw that you went straight to solitude to join the legion. Wow! I had no idea that racism was such a highest priority over the legion

Again with the singling out of the captain, Raijin? But you'll sit there all night defending racism amongst the Stormcloaks, laughable.

 

[Raijin]

Aside from the fact that it's nothing more than your biased opinion, that's not how high treason is defined under Imperial Law which makes this statement as a whole completely false.

Not a biased opinion High treason is high treason. The Empire turn their backs on their own people by agreeing to the treaty. It's simple as that.

You do realize that Skyrim isn't real don't you? Because couching the question in this manner makes it sound like you believe it's actually real and happening in our world. The correct way to form the question is "In a fictitious fantasy world where the concepts of contemporary due process are non-existent, execution without the formalities of a trial is normative behavior, and the person being executed for a crime is guilty beyond all dispute of having committed the crime, is my character okay with that execution?"

Did I just read this right? You're lecturing me about the world of Skyrim isn't real? Why are we sitting here debating this endless discussion? At least we both can agree with something.....The elders scroll series are fiction

Again with the singling out of the captain, Raijin? But you'll sit there all night defending racism amongst the Stormcloaks, laughable.

Racism is quite common in Skyrim. Dropping your jaw and pointing at the Stormcloaks with disbelief and calling them racists is hilarious. None nord stormcloaks are racists too... just checkout the Dark elves.

Did you go have a chat with our friend, Angi? Make more excuses on how the Imperial legion in Skyrim are just a big bunch of fluffy caring people

The Imperials was like

Before Angi decided to teach them a lesson.

 

[Dagmar]

...High treason is high treason...

This is about as meaningful a response as saying 2 = 2 which is to say it's completely meaningless in case that escapes you. Words have meanings and definitions no matter how much you may like to pretend that they don't. High treason has a definition under Imperial Law and the Empire turning its back on its people, which is your mere opinion no matter how many times you say it isn't, doesn't fall under that definition.

Did I just read this right? You're lecturing me about the world of Skyrim isn't real?

Yes, because you clearly need lecturing on it when you show a complete inability to divorce real world notions that are completely inapplicable to the game in a failed attempt to support extremely flawed arguments. It's evident in your posting history that it's habitual on your part.

At least we both can agree with something.....The elders scroll series are fiction.

Unless you're willing to act rationally with regards to what that fiction is (which would be something new on your part), we're not in agreement at all. The issue isn't about whether the Elder Scrolls universe is a fictitious one. It's about the nature of that fictitious universe and your constant attempts to imply or outright state that it's something other than what it is, which is a world that doesn't entertain the modern cultural, ethical and social values that you're constantly trying to impart on it.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

The Empire was in a desperate state, and ended the war the beat way they could. How is a peace treaty treason? Also, no one is saying that the Empire is perfect. Nothing is perfect, and...My god. You're a troll, and we're giving you exactly what you want. Everyone just ignore him unless he starts making sense!

 

[Raijin]

This is about as meaningful a response as saying 2 = 2 which is to say it's completely meaningless in case that escapes you. Words have meanings and definitions no matter how much you may like to pretend that they don't. High treason has a definition under Imperial Law and the Empire turning its back on its people, which is your mere opinion no matter how many times you say it isn't, doesn't fall under that definition.

No matter what you think of it... or how bias you are with the Empire the evidence is right there in front of you. What Mede did was very UNPOPULAR, and no It's not me voicing my opinions. I've collected data from NPC's to which I spoken with.

Yes, because you clearly need lecturing on it when you show a complete inability to divorce real world notions that are completely inapplicable to the game in a failed attempt to support extremely flawed arguments. It's evident in your posting history that it's habitual on your part.

Unless you're willing to act rationally with regards to what that fiction is (which would be something new on your part), we're not in agreement at all. The issue isn't about whether the Elder Scrolls universe is a fictitious one. It's about the nature of that fictitious universe and your constant attempts to imply or outright state that it's something other than what it is, which is a world that doesn't entertain the modern cultural, ethical and social values that you're constantly trying to impart on it.

You can save your time from lecturing me with this foolish off topic nonsense because I will ignore it. I simply asked you a reasonable question “So are you OK with executing people that haven't been convicted of a crime?” after you kept on saying “So what?” and you purposely avoided my question with an OFF TOPIC question in response to mine “You do realize that Skyrim isn't real don't you? (No plops sherlock) Because couching the question in this manner makes it sound like you believe it's actually real and happening in our world.” you then spread your off topic rant by essentially calling me a dumbass for not knowing what a fictional story is, and not knowing what is real or fake. Nice job in avoiding the question with the “I'm smart and you're dumb” act.

 

[Dagmar]

No matter what you think of it... or how bias you are with the Empire the evidence is right there in front of you. What Mede did was very UNPOPULAR, and no It's not me voicing my opinions. I've collected data from NPC's to which I spoken with.

I have no bias with the Empire. I simply point out facts while all you proffer are opinions. You've presented literally no evidence to the contrary. Unpopular doesn't equal betrayal nor does it equal high treason under Imperial law. You were wrong then and you're wrong now.

Obama isn't popular with Republicans. He's possibly the least popular president to ever get reelected in the history of the United States. Republicans claim that he's betrayed the United States. Does that make it a fact? No it's just their opinion. Just like yours.

You can save your time from lecturing me with this foolish off topic nonsense because I will ignore it.

You can ignore it but it only reflects poorly on your position in doing so. It's not off-topic. It's very much on topic even if you lack the capacity to comprehend that.

I simply asked you a reasonable question.

No you asked an irrelevant question. It's not my fault that you still don't get that. I accurately pointed out the irrelevancy and therefore there was no point in answering it.

...you then spread your off topic rant

Someone is certainly ranting but it's not me.

If you want to infer that the observation of your inability to refrain from trying to impart contemporary values to a fictional universe that doesn't embrace them is a statement about your intelligence that's your prerogative. I've simply made an observation based on several posts including recent ones by you where you do this again and again.

 

[Raijin]

I have no bias with the Empire. I simply point out facts while all you proffer are opinions. You've presented literally no evidence to the contrary. Unpopular doesn't equal betrayal nor does it equal high treason under Imperial law. You were wrong then and you're wrong now.

Yeah LOL spilling out opinions when their all base on what NPCs tells me. Why do you think Ulfric have followers, eh? People felt betrayed by their Empire after they witnessed Mede signing away their rights to free worship of Talos (The founder of the Empire) to please the elves. Because of the betrayal they've became unpopular.


Skyrim:Galmar Stone-Fist - UESPWiki

After you have joined the Stormcloaks, when asked about his reasons for joining the war against the Legion: "Reasons? Since when does a man need a reason to protect his family, to defend his homeland? It's the damn outlanders and Empire that need the reasons." You can then question him about Skyrim’s long lasting relations with the Empire: "Not this Empire (Aka Mede Empire). The world's better without it. Certainly Skyrim is. I fought in the Imperial army in the War against the Dominion. I bled and spilt blood for the Empire. And for what? The Empire to bend its knee before those evil elf bastards? Signing a treaty meant to kill the heart of the Empire itself. To deny Talos? No. I will have no part of any such Empire. And I will gladly gut anyone who says otherwise." You can also ask him directly if he oppose all non-Nord races: "I oppose tyranny. I oppose those who tell me how to live, what to think, and what to believe. I'm a man. Skyrim is man's homeland. That's a fact. A fact I'm proud of. There's no shame in that. Read your history." Lastly you can ask him about the aim for the war: "First we'll kick the Thalmor and their bloody Imperial puppets out of the country. Then we'll rebuild Skyrim into the land she once was. When we are done with that, we will take our army to the Dominion, and show those pointy-eared bastards not every man is fit to be their slave."

Obama isn't popular with Republicans. He's possibly the least popular president to ever get reelected in the history of the United States. Republicans claim that he's betrayed the United States. Does that make it a fact? No it's just their opinion. Just like yours.

You can ignore it but it only reflects poorly on your position in doing so. It's not off-topic. It's very much on topic even if you lack the capacity to comprehend that.
No you asked an irrelevant question. It's not my fault that you still don't get that. I accurately pointed out the irrelevancy and therefore there was no point in answering it.

Someone is certainly ranting but it's not me.

If you want to infer that the observation of your inability to refrain from trying to impart contemporary values to a fictional universe that doesn't embrace them is a statement about your intelligence that's your prerogative. I've simply made an observation based on several posts including recent ones by you where you do this again and again.

Are you going to answer my question or not? Why is it so difficult to answer? I'm going to ask you once more.... this time I will rephrase what I previously wrote.

Do you think that what the Empire is doing to Ulfric is right? To take him to Helgan, Instead of Cyrodiil to face trial, and execute him without a conviction of the crimes that hes being accused of? Do you think Ulfric Stormcloak deserve a fair trial? If not why?

 

[123]

1. Using the argument 'there's no fair trial system' is like saying all of Tamriel is evil because there's no antibiotics

2. "No open Talos worship" is like saying the United States needs to be overthrown for outlawing Marijuana

3. You can still worship Talos

4. The Empire saved countless lives by surrendering

 

[Dagmar]

Yeah LOL spilling out opinions when their all base on what NPCs tells me.

Which are also opinions.

People felt betrayed by their Empire after they witnessed Mede signing away their rights to free worship of Talos (The founder of the Empire) to please the elves.

What they feel and what actually happened are two separate things. If you have any understanding what was going on after the Battle of the Red Ring you have to realize that point of view is an extreme oversimplification of what was going on at the time. Citing Galmar doesn't change anything either. Those are his opinions. Their appeal to you doesn't make them facts.

Do you think that what the Empire is doing to Ulfric is right? To take him to Helgan, Instead of Cyrodiil to face trial, and execute him without a conviction of the crimes that hes being accused of? Do you think Ulfric Stormcloak deserve a fair trial? If not why?

There's nothing wrong with the Empire carrying out Imperial Law by executing Ulfric at Helgen. He's not just being accused of the crime of high treason, he's indisputably guilty of it so the absence of a trial to which no one is even entitled in the Elder Scrolls universe is a complete non-issue as a trial is completely unnecessary to establish his guilt. Everyone on all sides concedes that he killed the High King and it's not as if he's going to deny that he killed Torygg. Ulfric himself never brings it up because unlike you, he's a character of the Tamriel and acts like it.

You're also suffering from a misguided notion that trials in Tamriel are anything like trials in our justice system. If they're reflective of older trial systems they're simply tools of the state to use against those prosecuted for political advantage. There's nothing fair about them. The notion didn't exist in these types of societies. Your fixation on his being denied a trial as being something that would be considered unjust by a citizen of Tamriel is a product of your imagination and isn't consistent with what's being presented to you in the game.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Empire didn't exactly surrender, they defeated the Thalmor Army in Cyrodill, completely destroyed it and hung their General off the big tower. The Empire formed a peace treaty to end bloodshed for the time being, they did not simply roll over and surrender, they lost more than half their Army and they get crap from Stormcloaks because of what? They didn't march to Summerset Isles? They'd have to retake every province before they could even attempt to go there, if they didn't then they would need to leave soldiers behind to guard the cities and borders and well gee it is sure smart to invade with a splinter force that is worn out and cut off from reinforcements by an ocean to fight against an Army in their own land? which know the area and have all the resources they need.

You get the "Well hammerfell kept fighting" Hammerfell defeated Thalmor in Hammerfell and formed a treaty with the Thalmor, the Empire did the exact same, should we hate the Redguards because THEY didn't march on to Summerset Isles?

As for Ulfric Stormcloak, he does not care for Skyrim or the people in it, only himself. You see this many times throughout the story. Peace talks with Him and General Tullius. Tullius will agree to a truce while the dragon threat remains, Ulfric the "True" High King, only will agree if the Empire gives him some land to help him in his war effort, Tullius goes alright but we get one aswell then, Ulfric complains at this the talks continue then when you think we're getting somewhere what a surprised Ulfric wants another Hold, for a man who claims he fights for his people he doesn't seem to exactly care about Dragons killing his countrymen, unless he can use it to his advantage to become High King.

The High King respected Ulfric greatly and would of went for independence if Ulfirc simply asked him. But no Ulfric killed him because he wanted the Throne. The main reason the High King didn't go for independence when Ulfric was merely hinting at it during the Moot for Torygg, not asking for it, just hinting shy of treason. Is because Skyrim depends on the Empire for trade with the food the Empire brings and other stuff with the East Empire Company to Skyrim.


Back to the Empire though, there is a big difference to simply rolling over to the Thalmor and fighting them to a stand still. The Thalmor are more talk than bite, they fear the Empire and they have good reason to fear it, The Empire has been rebuilding for thirty years, they haven't been sitting around doing nothing, their Legions are going up to full strength, there is only one Legion in Skyrim the Fourth Legion and the Empire has several Legions. So if you were fearing the Empire you'd try to divide them, limit their advance and buy time. The Stormcloak uprising was started by the Thalmor with Ulfric doing exactly what the Thalmor want, they even give 'indirect' aid to the Stormcloaks. That is the only reason the Stormcloaks are holding against Tullius.

Ulfric isn't all that great, he was captured by Tullius (Well he surrendered to Tullius without a fight. Hadvar and Ralof are at least in agreement with that.)

Be sad for the Stormcloaks if the Emperor is killed by the Dark Brotherhood as he is the only reason The Empire hasn't marched into Skyrim hitting it like a hammer to an anvil. I suppose the Emperor has his reasons probably wants to win the Nords back with a mainly Nord Legion. It is the reason the Fourth Legion is recruiting locally because Mede won't commit more forces, if he was to die in Skyrim, the Council could blame the Stormcloaks for the assassination with hiring the Dark Brotherhood, then a great purge would happen as several fresh Legions stormed into Skyrim like a flood. Ulfric may have stood against one Legion with indirect Thalmor aid but he will have a tough time against more, considering the Empire has 18 Legions all up.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

Raijin



I think you need this.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

Raijin

High Treason:
Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death.

Source: Lore:Legal Basics - UESPWiki

Torygg was a vassal to his liege, Emperor Mede. Ulfric Stormcloak committed physical harm to Torygg. Which is punishable by death. It's a black and white law.

He has been convicted of high treason and is awaiting his sentence, General Talius was likely granted authority by the council to be, as they say, judge, jury, and executioner.

Now then, I would like to point out you can't back an opinion by an opinion. Opinions must be backed by evidence. Evidence shows that the WGC is unpopular. Popularity is defined as: The state or condition of being liked, admired, or supported by many people.

Let's break down this further:

Liked, v.

1. Find agreeable, enjoyable, or satisfactory: "I like all Angela Carter's stories".
2. Wish for; want: "would you like a cup of coffee?"; "we would like for you to work for us".

Admired, v.

1. Regard (an object, quality, or person) with respect or warm approval.
2. Look at with pleasure.

Oh, look. Those words basically boil down to having a positive opinion about something.
So evidence my show an opinion as well, be careful of that. Evidence also shows Ulfric committed and essentially admitted to High Treason by Imperial Law. Which is a fact, even if Ulfric didn't call it High Treason himself. Now Let's look at the definition of fact, and opinion. Just so we are clear on this.

Fact, n.

1. A thing that is indisputably the case.
2. Information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article. (Unless said article is published by FOX)

Opinion, n.

1. A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
2. The beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing.

Now then, let's see, NPCs state their opinions, some books may also state opinions to a degree. To properly argue your case in a debate you must look for things that are clearly impartial facts to support yourself. You must then use facts, not opinions, to defend against counter arguments. I am sure all who are present in this thread will agree, an opinion being used to back your own opinion is a void argument. Using an NPCs opinion is like saying "I'm right because that dude over there said the exact same thing" or "I'm right because he agrees with me". If I said the sky was made of flying penguins and you agreed with me, doesn't make either of us right.

Below this line absolute opinion begins and should be treated as such.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
I just felt I should deliver some impartial facts to better your understanding of how much of an idiot you look like at the moment.

Thank you for pointing out my idiocy, I am an idiot and would've never known if you hadn't shown me the light.

Your welcome.