Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jeremius]

Except the Stormcloaks are more corrupt than the Legion. We've spent this entire thread arguing points to people like you, who just keep ignoring, staying away for a few pages, then returning with the same stupid pl***. You asked for clear reasons to join a side, we gave them to you, then you said they weren't good enough. You obviously support the Stormcloaks, but you're taking a neutral stance as an opportunity to argue your terrible logistically flawed points.


It's hard to take you seriously if you don't have any understanding of the White Gold Concordant, the Battle of the Red Ring, the Aldmeri Dominion, and Ulfric Stormcloak himself.

As I said before I support the Stormcloak ideal of Freedom of Religion, but never once said that I support them personally. you can support a goal and not the people fighting for that goal.

Ulfric is a racist, He killed the high king and is a traitor, I read and understand each point. The racism I say, is there evidence that he actually decided to leave it up or was he so focused on the war that he is ignoring his duties as a Jarl. then you guys argue that it would make him a terrible high king, I point to mr. P (Greybeard boss) as an example of how people can change, you argue that Ulfric cannot change, then I ask Should Paarthurnax die, despite the fact that he did, in fact, change? The killing the high king I never argued, the traitor I asked, Is he a traitor to me personally or the empire? Since I am not the empire, why should I care what they call Ulfric.

The Aldmeri Dominion is a group of High elves who want to destroy/enslave humanity and take the top again, and the battle of Red Ring crushed the Dominion's invasion force the first time around. Tiber Septim proves that even united, Humans could not defeat the elves without a secret weapon, so I do not see how the Empire, United, can defeat them.

The White-Gold Concordant is a treaty that became the focal point of a Civil war because some Nords took the ban on Talos too seriously. The Empire does not enforce it so the Thalmor have to, and if you ask them, they never once mention that Ulfric is the reason they are there. You guys do realize that the treaty made the Dominion the essential boss of the Empire, even though you do not belive that. They do not need to break the Concordant to destroy the empire, they just need a reason to have the empire throw Skyrim out.

Did I miss anything?

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

As I said before I support the Stormcloak ideal of Freedom of Religion, but never once said that I support them personally. you can support a goal and not the people fighting for that goal.

This is the best point you have ever made.

Ulfric is a racist, He killed the high king and is a traitor, I read and understand each point. The racism I say, is there evidence that he actually decided to leave it up or was he so focused on the war that he is ignoring his duties as a Jarl. then you guys argue that it would make him a terrible high king, I point to mr. P (Greybeard boss) as an example of how people can change, you argue that Ulfric cannot change, then I ask Should Paarthurnax die, despite the fact that he did, in fact, change? The killing the high king I never argued, the traitor I asked, Is he a traitor to me personally or the empire? Since I am not the empire, why should I care what they call Ulfric.

First off, he was Jarl BEFORE he started the Civil War, there is clear evidence of that. In fact it is stated that their was occasions where, as Jarl, he visited Solitude BEFORE he killed the High King. Making it obvious that it seems that he did in fact leave those policies in place when he WASN'T occupied with a war.

It is also unstated what the DB relationship is with the Empire, if he considered himself loyal to the Empire it could be considered a betrayal, however past behavior is a good indicator of future behavior. If you want to go for other reasons not to join a traitor, it's because it proves he is dishonest and unhonorable. So if you consider those valuable it's a good reason not to join him.

The Aldmeri Dominion is a group of High elves who want to destroy/enslave humanity and take the top again, and the battle of Red Ring crushed the Dominion's invasion force the first time around. Tiber Septim proves that even united, Humans could not defeat the elves without a secret weapon, so I do not see how the Empire, United, can defeat them.

The original Dominion was more powerful than the present Dominion, so we can not consider them equals.

The White-Gold Concordant is a treaty that became the focal point of a Civil war because some Nords took the ban on Talos too seriously. The Empire does not enforce it so the Thalmor have to, and if you ask them, they never once mention that Ulfric is the reason they are there. You guys do realize that the treaty made the Dominion the essential boss of the Empire, even though you do not belive that. They do not need to break the Concordant to destroy the empire, they just need a reason to have the empire throw Skyrim out.

It is however stated that Dominion was never as active until after the Markarth incident. The Thalmor can only enforce the terms of the treaty, nothing else.

 

[Jeremius]

This is the best point you have ever made.

First off, he was Jarl BEFORE he started the Civil War, there is clear evidence of that. In fact it is stated that their was occasions where, as Jarl, he visited Solitude BEFORE he killed the High King. Making it obvious that it seems that he did in fact leave those policies in place when he WASN'T occupied with a war.

It is also unstated what the DB relationship is with the Empire, if he considered himself loyal to the Empire it could be considered a betrayal, however past behavior is a good indicator of future behavior. If you want to go for other reasons not to join a traitor, it's because it proves he is dishonest and unhonorable. So if you consider those valuable it's a good reason not to join him.

If I (as my character) am not personally affected, then why should I agree with what the empire calls him?

The original Dominion was more powerful than the present Dominion, so we can not consider them equals.

Still, The Empire did not do so well the last time, and that was with four provinces. I still do not see how they hope to win against the dominion without overwhelmingly outnumbering them, or doing a pincer attack-type move and surround them.

It is however stated that Dominion was never as active until after the Markarth incident. The Thalmor can only enforce the terms of the treaty, nothing else.

No comment.

 

[Docta Corvina]

As I said before I support the Stormcloak ideal of Freedom of Religion, but never once said that I support them personally. you can support a goal and not the people fighting for that goal.

Ulfric is a racist, He killed the high king and is a traitor, I read and understand each point. The racism I say, is there evidence that he actually decided to leave it up or was he so focused on the war that he is ignoring his duties as a Jarl. then you guys argue that it would make him a terrible high king, I point to mr. P (Greybeard boss) as an example of how people can change, you argue that Ulfric cannot change, then I ask Should Paarthurnax die, despite the fact that he did, in fact, change? The killing the high king I never argued, the traitor I asked, Is he a traitor to me personally or the empire? Since I am not the empire, why should I care what they call Ulfric.

The Aldmeri Dominion is a group of High elves who want to destroy/enslave humanity and take the top again, and the battle of Red Ring crushed the Dominion's invasion force the first time around. Tiber Septim proves that even united, Humans could not defeat the elves without a secret weapon, so I do not see how the Empire, United, can defeat them.

The White-Gold Concordant is a treaty that became the focal point of a Civil war because some Nords took the ban on Talos too seriously. The Empire does not enforce it so the Thalmor have to, and if you ask them, they never once mention that Ulfric is the reason they are there. You guys do realize that the treaty made the Dominion the essential boss of the Empire, even though you do not belive that. They do not need to break the Concordant to destroy the empire, they just need a reason to have the empire throw Skyrim out.

Did I miss anything?

(From earlier in the argument)

Who here is arguing that they wanna be BFFs with the captain? Pretty sure she's universally hated and for good reason. The point we're making is that for every time anyone points to her as evidence of crippling moral failure in the Legion or otherwise as a mark against them overall, then we can look to Rolff and others as highly problematic sympathizers of the Stormcloaks. Not to mention Ulfric himself, who is mired in deep controversy regarding his personal history and the state of his capital.

I noticed that you say we're "defending" the captain for her actions and I fail to see that. There's no doubt that she's there as an agent of chaos, in a way. She's there to present you with a certain "first" face of the Legion, and guess what? Simultaneously you're presented with Hadvar! He is the anti-captain in every way. You say that the captain's dismissal of you says something about the Legion - well, so does Hadvar, who easily befriends you and cares about your welfare even before you formally join the Legion.

I mean, I could hate on Ralof for the company he keeps. But he's an endearing character and a basically good person, from what I've seen. My overarching point is that we can't allow ourselves to paint entire factions with one brush, as much as we might want to do so. There are enough solid reasons to support either side, and those reasons just weigh more with each of us individually.


To your latest points:

So you're agreeing that Ulfric is a racist but are simply asking whence it comes? Already you've essentially admitted that he's unfit to be Jarl, because a ruler who doesn't have the interest of all peoples under his protection at heart doesn't deserve the position of power - or will you defend his right to it despite that?

To your point about Parthy, you're looking away from Ulfric to draw attention to another character entirely under the guise of useful comparison, but the fact is that it's only useful now for the purpose of distraction. Parthy is a dragon whose "crimes" occurred eons before your character existed. Your introduction to him is precisely that: an introduction. You're free to make up your mind based on what you see of him, since that is effectively all that you can go on. And that's exactly what we're applying to Ulfric. Even with his past history aside, Windhelm is evidence of a different set of rules at work, racially based proscriptions. He has not been fighting this war of his for his whole reign as Jarl; the circumstances which he has continued there actually predate his rule. We are told via NPC testimony that things have worsened since he took over, however. But if he was too busy before the war to give a damn, I'm not at all surprised that he's much too busy now that the war in full swing. Excusing that is anyone's prerogative, but it's not what a responsible leader offers.

Could he change his stripes and sit down and sing the Nord version of kumbaya with the Dunmer and Argonians and all other non-Nords in his Hold? Anything's possible - but some things are more likely than others. And as a wise doctor has long maintained, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Some people can truly change, but it takes a sincere effort and great meditation. Parthy has had lifetimes at his disposal for such an undertaking. Mere mortals? They - we - have decidedly less time and far more to worry about.

If Ulfric's not a traitor to your character, fine and dandy. In fact, I don't honestly understand why you post in this thread if you truly don't care about any of it. If you're not invested, fine. But to swat at arguments and contentions from others by saying "Lalala, it doesn't affect me/my character, therefore it's irrelevant" seems fruitless. The man is irrefutably a criminal according to Imperial law, to which Skyrim is beholden at this point in history. It's entirely true what they say that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. But with that bears acknowledgement that Ulfric, once a Legionnaire, swore an oath to the Empire and the Emperor by extension. He has violently broken that oath in more than one way and may easily be seen as a villain as much as the other side may see him as a hero. If you and your character don't care, that's great. But as soon as you weigh in in either direction, you've opened up the gates for counterpoints, my friend.

As far as humans being ultimately incapable of beating the AD without a deus ex machina, then why the hell does anyone think the Stormcloaks as a faction are the better choice based on that alone? As others have said previously, it's a hard case of numbers, as well as tactics and position. I don't believe Ulfric would be as foolish as to really make for the shores of the Summerset Isles anytime soon - he's not an idiot. He didn't get to the position he is by being one. If he were to be victorious canonically, I don't see how there could not be a concerted effort at diplomatic reconciliation with the Empire before any sort of military campaign.

As for the AD not saying they're there because of Ulfric, do you really expect them to? Fact is that the Thalmor didn't start getting as deadly and overzealous until Ulfric started agitating. Some people like to condemn the Empire for being "lazy", when at the end of the day they should be praising such laziness - because it amounted to them looking the other way regarding Talos worship.

Ondolemar drops enough hints simply by saying that the current peace is only a calm between storms, the next one to be bigger and more terrible than the last. If that's not enough of an ominous signal as to what's really going on, I don't know what is.

 

[Jeremius]

(From earlier in the argument)

Who here is arguing that they wanna be BFFs with the captain? Pretty sure she's universally hated and for good reason. The point we're making is that for every time anyone points to her as evidence of crippling moral failure in the Legion or otherwise as a mark against them overall, then we can look to Rolff and others as highly problematic sympathizers of the Stormcloaks. Not to mention Ulfric himself, who is mired in deep controversy regarding his personal history and the state of his capital.

I noticed that you say we're "defending" the captain for her actions and I fail to see that. There's no doubt that she's there as an agent of chaos, in a way. She's there to present you with a certain "first" face of the Legion, and guess what? Simultaneously you're presented with Hadvar! He is the anti-captain in every way. You say that the captain's dismissal of you says something about the Legion - well, so does Hadvar, who easily befriends you and cares about your welfare even before you formally join the Legion.

I mean, I could hate on Ralof for the company he keeps. But he's an endearing character and a basically good person, from what I've seen. My overarching point is that we can't allow ourselves to paint entire factions with one brush, as much as we might want to do so. There are enough solid reasons to support either side, and those reasons just weigh more with each of us individually.


To your latest points:

So you're agreeing that Ulfric is a racist but are simply asking whence it comes? Already you've essentially admitted that he's unfit to be Jarl, because a ruler who doesn't have the interest of all peoples under his protection at heart doesn't deserve the position of power - or will you defend his right to it despite that?

To your point about Parthy, you're looking away from Ulfric to draw attention to another character entirely under the guise of useful comparison, but the fact is that it's only useful now for the purpose of distraction. Parthy is a dragon whose "crimes" occurred eons before your character existed. Your introduction to him is precisely that: an introduction. You're free to make up your mind based on what you see of him, since that is effectively all that you can go on. And that's exactly what we're applying to Ulfric. Even with his past history aside, Windhelm is evidence of a different set of rules at work, racially based proscriptions. He has not been fighting this war of his for his whole reign as Jarl; the circumstances which he has continued there actually predate his rule. We are told via NPC testimony that things have worsened since he took over, however. But if he was too busy before the war to give a damn, I'm not at all surprised that he's much too busy now that the war in full swing. Excusing that is anyone's prerogative, but it's not what a responsible leader offers.

Could he change his stripes and sit down and sing the Nord version of kumbaya with the Dunmer and Argonians and all other non-Nords in his Hold? Anything's possible - but some things are more likely than others. And as a wise doctor has long maintained, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Some people can truly change, but it takes a sincere effort and great meditation. Parthy has had lifetimes at his disposal for such an undertaking. Mere mortals? They - we - have decidedly less time and far more to worry about.

If Ulfric's not a traitor to your character, fine and dandy. In fact, I don't honestly understand why you post in this thread if you truly don't care about any of it. If you're not invested, fine. But to swat at arguments and contentions from others by saying "Lalala, it doesn't affect me/my character, therefore it's irrelevant" seems fruitless. The man is irrefutably a criminal according to Imperial law, to which Skyrim is beholden at this point in history. It's entirely true what they say that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. But with that bears acknowledgement that Ulfric, once a Legionnaire, swore an oath to the Empire and the Emperor by extension. He has violently broken that oath in more than one way and may easily be seen as a villain as much as the other side may see him as a hero. If you and your character don't care, that's great. But as soon as you weigh in in either direction, you've opened up the gates for counterpoints, my friend.

As far as humans being ultimately incapable of beating the AD without a deus ex machina, then why the hell does anyone think the Stormcloaks as a faction are the better choice based on that alone? As others have said previously, it's a hard case of numbers, as well as tactics and position. I don't believe Ulfric would be as foolish as to really make for the shores of the Summerset Isles anytime soon - he's not an idiot. He didn't get to the position he is by being one. If he were to be victorious canonically, I don't see how there could not be a concerted effort at diplomatic reconciliation with the Empire before any sort of military campaign.

As for the AD not saying they're there because of Ulfric, do you really expect them to? Fact is that the Thalmor didn't start getting as deadly and overzealous until Ulfric started agitating. Some people like to condemn the Empire for being "lazy", when at the end of the day they should be praising such laziness - because it amounted to them looking the other way regarding Talos worship.

Ondolemar drops enough hints simply by saying that the current peace is only a calm between storms, the next one to be bigger and more terrible than the last. If that's not enough of an ominous signal as to what's really going on, I don't know what is.

1) I am not trying to convert people. I am merely stating that the posts in this thread supporting the empire make it look like the guy betrayed you personally, and he did not. at least to me it does.

2) If it were some other Nord who took offense to it, they would still be there.

The only reasons I see that one should choose a side are:
Empire-Peace and unity over discord
Stormcloaks-Freedom from fear and tyranny and the right to worship who you want.

 

[Docta Corvina]

1) I am not trying to convert people. I am merely stating that the posts in this thread supporting the empire make it look like the guy betrayed you personally, and he did not. at least to me it does.

2) If it were some other Nord who took offense to it, they would still be there.

The only reasons I see that one should choose a side are:
Empire-Peace and unity over discord
Stormcloaks-Freedom from fear and tyranny and the right to worship who you want.

Can only speak for myself, but I don't feel like he betrayed me personally as the player. I am obviously supportive of the Empire and adore Cyrodiil, but my objections to Ulfric and his faction are not strictly philosophical in nature, but also practical.

I agree that it's likely not about Ulfric per se, in that it's about him personally. And by that I mean that yes, they would have targeted any who agitated and drew attention to the province in such a fashion. The Thalmor sowed and continue to sow the seeds of mischief and discord and are reveling in the ensuing violence - hence why they're indirectly aiding the Stormcloaks in their rebellion. They're eating it up and for all of us who appreciate what the Empire is trying to accomplish concerning the general welfare of Tamriel, it's enough to very bitterly resent Ulfric for the added distraction and drain on resources for eventual use against the AD.

 

[Jeremius]

Can only speak for myself, but I don't feel like he betrayed me personally as the player. I am obviously supportive of the Empire and adore Cyrodiil, but my objections to Ulfric and his faction are not strictly philosophical in nature, but also practical.

I agree that it's likely not about Ulfric per se, in that it's about him personally. And by that I mean that yes, they would have targeted any who agitated and drew attention to the province in such a fashion. The Thalmor sowed and continue to sow the seeds of mischief and discord and are reveling in the ensuing violence - hence why they're indirectly aiding the Stormcloaks in their rebellion. They're eating it up and for all of us who appreciate what the Empire is trying to accomplish concerning the general welfare of Tamriel, it's enough to very bitterly resent Ulfric for the added distraction and drain on resources for eventual use against the AD.

IF there is another, non CW-related plus to the empire that gives me reason to join them, let me know.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

IF there is another, non CW-related plus to the empire that gives me reason to join them, let me know.

How about you get to prove them wrong about executing you? I like to imagine that, in a private moment, Dovahkiin gets to gloat about his/her triumphs and what they nearly destroyed.

 

[Jeremius]

How about you get to prove them wrong about executing you? I like to imagine that, in a private moment, Dovahkiin gets to gloat about his/her triumphs and what they nearly destroyed.

Hmm, stilll sounds a bit personal to me.

 

[samgurl775]

How about you get to prove them wrong about executing you? I like to imagine that, in a private moment, Dovahkiin gets to gloat about his/her triumphs and what they nearly destroyed.

I'd much rather have the chance to confront Ulfric about his dossier in the Thalmor Embassy, or ask him about the events in The Bear of Markarth.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Hmm, stilll sounds a bit personal to me.

They tried to cut off your head. It kinda is.

 

[Jeremius]

They tried to cut off your head. It kinda is.

So I don't use it as my own reason to choose a side. The reason has to be along the lines of "Empire provides security," Or "Stormcloaks value freedom from tyranny and fear."

 

[Bogs]

Hey everyone! Been watching this thread for awhile now and wanted to ask a question: With the Thalmor agents scattered across the imperial provinces how is the Legion going to be able launch a successful attack/defence of the Empire when the Thalmor likely know quite a lot of the detail of the Legions' disposition?

 

[Scotty Piffin']

In the most honest moment all of us here can admit both sides are equally plopsty in their own ways (in certain aspect). It's whatever BS you wanna look over to aide that side. I don't really need to list that BS in a 200+ page thread, we all know what we're talking about. Personally I don't vibe well with racism at all considering I'm part of interracial relationship, was raised around and partially by people of all races, so I'm predisposed to feel that any sort of racial epitaphs are an ugly hat to wear. But at the same time that "He's not on the list.... " - "Eh!!!! f00k it! behead him anyway!" reality isn't exactly a beautiful cross to bear either in that decision. Really just comes down to what you're willing to look over/what side you believe is more right in their cause despite their actions to further them (because lets face it, has there ever been a war were either side(s) were completely righteous?).

Both sides have their inexcusable realities about themselves, trying to justify 'em is pointless, really. That's just the honest truth as cut & dry as it gets.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

Hey everyone! Been watching this thread for awhile now and wanted to ask a question: With the Thalmor agents scattered across the imperial provinces how is the Legion going to be able launch a successful attack/defence of the Empire when the Thalmor likely know quite a lot of the detail of the Legions' disposition?

Same way the Aldmeri Dominion did so against the Empire when the Dominion was full of Blades spies. Kill the spies first.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

IF there is another, non CW-related plus to the empire that gives me reason to join them, let me know.

The Imperial side has heavy armor and light armor to choose from where as the Stormcloaks only have light. And by your logic there is no reason to do any quest-line in the game at all.

In the most honest moment all of us here can admit both sides are equally plopsty in their own ways (in certain aspect). It's whatever BS you wanna look over to aide that side. I don't really need to list that BS in a 200+ page thread, we all know what we're talking about. Personally I don't vibe well with racism at all considering I'm part of interracial relationship, was raised around and partially by people of all races, so I'm predisposed to feel that any sort of racial epitaphs are an ugly hat to wear. But at the same time that "He's not on the list.... " - "Eh!!!! f00k it! behead him anyway!" reality isn't exactly a beautiful cross to bear either in that decision. Really just comes down to what you're willing to look over/what side you believe is more right in their cause despite their actions to further them (because lets face it, has there ever been a war were either side(s) were completely righteous?).

Both sides have their inexcusable realities about themselves, trying to justify 'em is pointless, really. That's just the honest truth as cut & dry as it gets.

This thread long ago became a debate about what is the worse of the two evils. Some people try to justify those wrongs others try to point out why it is more practical to look beyond those wrongs for the good of the many. I believe both sides need to burn for their own reasons, but the Imperials are best for the many. I would never excuse their wrongs however.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

[quote="Squirrel_killer-, post: 224686
This thread long ago became a debate about what is the worse of the two evils. Some people try to justify those wrongs others try to point out why it is more practical to look beyond those wrongs for the good of the many. I believe both sides need to burn for their own reasons, but the Imperials are best for the many. I would never excuse their wrongs however.[/quote]
They don't need to burn. They need to pull their heads out of their asses, get stronger, and tear down the Aldmeri Dominion together.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

They don't need to burn. They need to pull their heads out of their asses, get stronger, and tear down the Aldmeri Dominion together.

Fully agree there. Which I pointed out about 90 pages back or so. In fact I believe I even gave a detailed tactic on how to achieve such a feat.

 

[Docta Corvina]

That's the thing...I don't believe many people have argued on behalf of either side without admitting that some less than ideal circumstances exist. It's naive to think that either side is totally free of flaws. I know I myself have never argued thusly, and never would in good conscience. At their most fundamental levels, both the Empire and the Stormcloaks want the same thing: freedom from the threats and yoke of the Dominion and its agents. The difference comes in how to ultimately achieve that, which is a matter of philosophy and tactics, as well as timing. There is an obvious utilitarian aspect to the argument.

To paint the civil war in black and white is never advisable. It's always been very, very gray.

 

[Eidelon]

Okay, so I guess you're just as ignorant as I thought you were. That is not reason at all. "A black guy beat me up... I'm just gonna be wary of black people now."

Not at all.. the empire has a responsibility to make sure there officers play by the rules, Black people don't have a responsibility for each-others actions.. Furthermore I don't beleive that any right minded stormcloak follower did that for revenge.. try thinking of it this way, If thalmor are like nazis and kidnap people based on their religion. Then any government that allows does not protect their people and is therefore needs to be removed. If you think the empire protects skyrim i think talos worshipers beg to differ. Ulfric is not racist especially if a nonnord helps him reclaim skyrim. Also the height of racism in skyrim is a drunk civilian verbally asaulting a dark elf than it is about as racist as america is right now.