Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Docta Corvina]

I did so because unlike you, my agenda in this thread is to refute false claims about the lore that players have tried to assert in an effort to support their advocacy for joining either side. The fact that I do it far more often regarding posts from those that advocate for the Stormcloaks is only evidence of the significantly higher prevalence of posts by those players that mistakenly or intentionally (and quite often in your case delusionally) attempt to distort or make outright false claims about the lore of the Elder Scrolls Universe in a misguided attempt to support their arguments.

THIS. This is what drives me most often to jump back in here and say something in response, even after I've sworn to myself not to do so in the interests of saving my sanity. It bothers me when I see blatantly false claims or misinformation being used to "back up" stances. Of course I'm all for having a "side" that you unwaveringly support, whatever side of it all it happens to be. Skyrim was my first ES game ever and all of my decisions and opinions about the CW and its components obviously originated in what I saw while playing initially, but I've since made an effort to engage the lore and history (that which is largely available online), as well as play previous games for added perspective. Maybe it's just my debater's spirit, but one thing I cannot stand is outright fabrications, ignoring of established lore and refusal to acknowledge facts when presented. It's exceedingly difficult to have a real conversation about the game's events and what perhaps motivates them when either side is merely throwing out hyperbolic statements with little or no grounding in reality. If anything, it forces us to all come full circle an infinite number of times here - evident from page one, onward lol. I enjoy debating and will continue to visit this thread. But it's certainly problematic at times.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Don't the Nords value honour? Ulfric swore an oath to the Empire and the Emperor since he was in the Legion and being a Jarl he would of sworn fealty to the High King.

All that shows is, he is an oath breaker and his word is meaningless. The "True" Nords of Skyrim wouldn't ever break an oath once they give their word, they value honour too much.

He wants to be High King, I picked that up at those peace talks since he always wants the Empire to give him land in exchange for him to think of his people for once and focus on Dragons which are killing both sides. Doesn't he say he'll only go if Tullius goes? Tullius isn't even a Nord yet he was willing to go listen to the Greybeards.

Though I remember hearing about a Nord war leader who used the voice as a weapon like Ulfric does and his entire army was destroyed as punishment from the Gods, that the Dragonborn is the only exception due to the blessing is from Akatosh. So wouldn't Ulfric's Stormcloaks be destroyed either way? By the Empire or Gods.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

This is for Raijin. You posted elsewhere that Nepo freaked you out? I'd like to point out that he and Madanach share similarities with Ulfric. They kill when they think is necessary for a controversal cause, even if they say they're tired of the exact actions they instigate. I find the Stormcloack Rebellion very similar to the Forsworns attempt to take te Reach.

 

[PrisonerLizzie]

You all do and say what you want, I tried to get behind the Empire on my first play through. It felt wrong, very wrong. Like betraying a friend. I couldn't stomach it a second time around. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are the ONLY right path for me and MY SKYRIM!

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

You all do and say what you want, I tried to get behind the Empire on my first play through. It felt wrong, very wrong. Like betraying a friend. I couldn't stomach it a second time around. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are the ONLY right path for me and MY SKYRIM!

Is it wort bringing up that the Stormcloak rebellion is in itself a betrayal to the Empire? Every Nord who fights for Ulfric abandoned their loyalty to their Empire.

 

[PrisonerLizzie]

Is it wort bringing up that the Stormcloak rebellion is in itself a betrayal to the Empire? Every Nord who fights for Ulfric abandoned their loyalty to their Empire.

Maybe they feel the Empire abandoned them

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Maybe they feel the Empire abandoned them

You mean the WGC? The Empire signed that for them, and everyone else. Cyrodiil stood between the Dominion and Skyrim. Tey could've lost, so they used the first bit of momentum they made to negotiate a cease fire. Yes, it favored the Thalmor. Yes, Talos worshippers were angery. However, because of the Empires actions, not a single life would be lost to them for a long time. Too bad Ulfric had to start another war and make it pointless.

 

[PrisonerLizzie]

You mean the WGC? The Empire signed that for them, and everyone else. Cyrodiil stood between the Dominion and Skyrim. Tey could've lost, so they used the first bit of momentum they made to negotiate a cease fire. Yes, it favored the Thalmor. Yes, Talos worshippers were angery. However, because of the Empires actions, not a single life would be lost to them for a long time. Too bad Ulfric had to start another war and make it pointless.

For some death is better then the bastardization of everything one believes in

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

For some death is better then the bastardization of everything one believes in

For some, self preservation is low on the list.

 

[PrisonerLizzie]

For some, self preservation is low on the list.

But at least we can hold our head higher then a skeevers arse when we get to Sovengarde

 

[Docta Corvina]

But at least we can hold our head higher then a skeevers arse when we get to Sovengarde

And many a proud Nord Legionnaire (and sympathizer) would mightily disagree, recognizing that living to fight another day and turning back what was wrought by an overzealous Dominion has just as much honor - especially since it looks to the collective welfare of Tamriel. The Thalmor is banking on the short-sightedness of mortals and seeks to capitalize on it at every available turn. The civil warfare makes that infinitely obvious.

To suggest that the Legionnaires (Imperial, Nord, etc.) have less honor or courage is actually pretty striking. Rikke and Hadvar certainly exhibit as much earnest bravery on behalf of their land and people as any of Ulfric's soldiers.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

The inportance of pride is debatable. Stormcloaks fail to admit that no law on earth could stop them from worshipping a god. They're just being all vocal about it. Not only do they attract the Thalmor's attention, but the Legion has to hold to the terms or the elves would unleash hell on them. Nice metaphor, but the fool who ruined the peace that the Empire engineered is the skeevers arse.

 

[PrisonerLizzie]

And many a proud Nord Legionnaire (and sympathizer) would mightily disagree, recognizing that living to fight another day and turning back what was wrought by an overzealous Dominion has just as much honor - especially since it looks to the collective welfare of Tamriel. The Thalmor is banking on the short-sightedness of mortals and seeks to capitalize on it at every available turn. The civil warfare makes that infinitely obvious.

To suggest that the Legionnaires (Imperial, Nord, etc.) have less honor or courage is actually pretty striking. Rikke and Hadvar certainly exhibit as much earnest bravery on behalf of their land and people as any of Ulfric's soldiers.

Faithless. Imperial. Dogs.

 

[PrisonerLizzie]

The inportance of pride is debatable. Stormcloaks fail to admit that no law on earth could stop them from worshipping a god. They're just being all vocal about it. Not only do they attract the Thalmor's attention, but the Legion has to hold to the terms or the elves would unleash hell on them. Nice metaphor, but the fool who ruined the peace that the Empire engineered is the skeevers arse.

Peace is always just a subjective term as long as you aren't the one getting boinked for it

 

[Docta Corvina]

Faithless. Imperial. Dogs.

Short-sighted. Fanatical. Nords.

...If you wanna play this game, of course.

 

[Raijin]

Yes you've repeated this same opinion and that's all it is. You obviously care when people point to the segregation of the Dunmer as irrefutable proof of the fact that he's racist as this is at least the second time you've posted that video in a failed attempt to trivialize it and assert that the reason why Ulfric won't address the segregation issue is because of the war and, once again, it's been pointed out to you that you're completely wrong. He is addressing it. He could rescind it without being distracted one iota from his war campaign, but he believes in it and he continues to enforce it because he's a racist.

I was venting when I posted that. The fact is that the segregation of the Dunmer in Windhelm isn't exactly the highest priority in Skyrim right now. It is to rid of all Thalmor and the imperial legion. Ulfric wants Skyrims Independence, and not that I blame him for it either because Hammerfell wasn't going to put up with the Empires weakness when they forced the Emperor to release the country to them. I respectfully disagree with you. I do not think hes a racist. I never heard him saying anything derogatory against the Dark elves. The only thing that hes guilty is focusing on his own race at the moment, and thats because his Nordic culture, and freedom is at risk right now all thanks to the Empire.

Which is completely irrelevant to the fact they weren't doing much to enforce the ban until Ulfric incited them to do so. But for Ulfric's actions the only people the Thalmor Justiciars would be enforcing the ban upon Talos are those stupid enough to do it openly, repeatedly and in their presence like the foolish bard Hadrik Oaken-Heart who not only publicly did it in the only city in Skyrim that quarters the Thalmor Justiciars but did it seven times no less before his own stupidity finally caught up with him. The exponentially heightened pain and misery they're inflicting in Skyrim now is because of Ulfric, not the White-Gold Concordat and nothing you say about the White-Gold Concordat will change that fact.

As much as you cherish the idea that dark elves in windhelm get the chance of buying upper class mansions I cherish freedom. It was the Empires decision to ban the worship of Talos. It wasn't Ulfric fault. When you speak with the Thalmor Justiciars they never once mention that their there because of Ulfric. They said that their there to make sure that the Empire wasn't lying to their elven masters. Perhaps if the Empire wasn't so damn lazy (According to the horse thief), and actually enforced the law then perhaps the Thalmor doesn't need to be there in the first place.

There's nothing for her to do. She's not the High Queen and she's not in charge of the military campaign and, unlike Ulfric, she doesn't have the blood of the victims of the Thalmor Justiciars on her hands.

Shes not the High Queen of skyrim, but it doesn't stop her from acting like one. It doesn't stop Ulfric from acting like the High King Ulfric doesn't have the blood of the victim of the Thalmor Justiciars either. That rightfully goes to the Empire for Banning the worship of Talos, and for allowing them to enter countries that are known for Talos worshipping.

This is for Raijin. You posted elsewhere that Nepo freaked you out? I'd like to point out that he and Madanach share similarities with Ulfric. They kill when they think is necessary for a controversal cause, even if they say they're tired of the exact actions they instigate. I find the Stormcloack Rebellion very similar to the Forsworns attempt to take te Reach.

Ulfric does show similarities with Madanach (Wanting to retake back their land), but his Nord militia isn't going out, and slaughtering travelers and innocent people for his cause.

Is it wort bringing up that the Stormcloak rebellion is in itself a betrayal to the Empire? Every Nord who fights for Ulfric abandoned their loyalty to their Empire.

Perhaps the Stormcloaks (Once veterans for the Empire) felt betrayed against the very same Empire that they bled for in the great war? Why should they stay loyal to the very Empire that sold their culture and freedom to the elves?

 

[thatwudbryan]

*I am an Imperial ROBOT er-der-er-der* *I fight for no other reason than what a piece of paper n what my Masters say er-der-er-der* *We need to send Imperial troops to major cities to recruit because we must survive on numbers er-der-er-der* *We ALL have ROBOT vaginas er-der-er-der* (sorry I kinda had to ) Jus listen to the way Imperials soldiers n SC soldiers talk n I don't mean accent or whatever BS wise. Stormcloaks have REASON and PASSION. Imperials? *Er-der-er-der* N by reason I mean reason for the cause not some piece of paper

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

No name calling people. I suppose it helps the Stormcloack argument that there's a legitimate afterlife to go to. Imperial supporters just think that it'd be smarter to take the peace the WGC brought to rebuild the Legion. Both sides have valid points. You can either accept them and choose your side, or stop stooping so low because your war buddies were insulted.

 

[Docta Corvina]

*I am an Imperial ROBOT er-der-er-der* *I fight for no other reason than what a piece of paper n what my Masters say er-der-er-der* *We need to send Imperial troops to major cities to recruit because we must survive on numbers er-der-er-der* *We ALL have ROBOT vaginas er-der-er-der* (sorry I kinda had to ) Jus listen to the way Imperials soldiers n SC soldiers talk n I don't mean accent or whatever BS wise. Stormcloaks have REASON and PASSION. Imperials? *Er-der-er-der* N by reason I mean reason for the cause not some piece of paper

By such a similar frame of argumentation (I use that term loosely, lol), one could contend that the Stormcloaks only fight really because Ulfric tells them to. That they're all part of a personality cult.

Really, people, come on now. Let's debate, but let's get above all the HERP DERP appearing on the last few pages. It's much more interesting that way. Hell, Dagmar has even offered solid reasoning for one supporting an independent Skyrim. Talking points from characters like Rolff and Galmar don't have to have anything to do with it.

...There were of course a few times on this thread where it all just rapidly descended into memes. I foresee that happening again lol.

 

[PrisonerLizzie]

The inportance of pride is debatable. Stormcloaks fail to admit that no law on earth could stop them from worshipping a god. They're just being all vocal about it. Not only do they attract the Thalmor's attention, but the Legion has to hold to the terms or the elves would unleash hell on them. Nice metaphor, but the fool who ruined the peace that the Empire engineered is the skeevers arse.

Now you want to play high and mighty?