Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[123]

Why should the Nords have to keep their religion a secret? Why can't they be open? Why can't they sing about their love for Talos in an open settings without being hunted down like a deer from the Thalmor? The fact is the Empire sold not just their religion freedom to the Thalmor, but also their culture as well. What is wrong with fighting for your freedom?

I don't know about you but I cherish freedom to be able to worship whatever gods I want, but to also carry on my tradition and culture. If my Government came knocking on my door telling me that I can no longer celebrate Thanksgiving or Christmas I would simply laugh at them and shut the door, and continue on with my life. Sure I may go to prison for disobeying my government, but at least I'm standing up for what I truly believe in.

There isn't going to BE any freedom when humanity gets enslaved. You know what's going to happen? They're going to be slaves, and their culture won't exist anymore. There won't be a Talos when all the Nords are completely under Dominion control.

 

[123]

It is not on his list because likely, he does not benefit from it. Doing something because it is your duty and it is the right thing to do, it won't work on people like Ulfric. I will point to your precious lore and "The Bear of Markarth". Ulfric was asked to help, and what did he do? He first demanded that Nords be allowed to worship Talos openly and freely in Markarth. He expected something in return so he helped a fellow Jarl. If he was just asked and said "Okay" I would agree he should rescind the segregation policy. But at this point, he needs something to expect from doing so.

That's like saying "Obama shouldn't legalize gay marriage because he doesn't gain anything from it."

 

[Jeremius]

That's like saying "Obama shouldn't legalize gay marriage because he doesn't gain anything from it."

IF you get a job and get promoted in that job, is it because your boss thinks you have been working hard?well, yes, but also he knows you are capable of it, and thus, expects you to work harder to earn the next promotion. Same thing with Ulfric. Doing something out of the goodness of his heart is not in his vocabulary, he needs to have something on the horizon to expect from the Dunmers before he rescinds the law.

 

[123]

Again, I post a list attempting to explain why the Imperials are right:

1. Ulfric is severing ties with foreign nations. This is not 'speculation' it's directly in front of you. He's segregating Argonians, who have now risen to be a massive power in Tamriel. Black Marsh is safe from the Dominion. They won't help him.

2. If the White Gold Concordant hadn't been signed, there wouldn't have been Talos worship anyway. The Dominion would win and it would've been outlawed.

3. If the White Gold Concordant hadn't been signed, humanity would be completely enslaved. The Empire did it because it was the only way to stop the war, giving them a chance to rebuild and gather power.

4. The Dominion is much bigger than the Stormcloaks.

 

[Jeremius]

Again, I post a list attempting to explain why the Imperials are right:

1. Ulfric is severing ties with foreign nations. This is not 'speculation' it's directly in front of you. He's segregating Argonians, who have now risen to be a massive power in Tamriel. Black Marsh is safe from the Dominion. They won't help him.

2. If the White Gold Concordant hadn't been signed, there wouldn't have been Talos worship anyway. The Dominion would win and it would've been outlawed.

3. If the White Gold Concordant hadn't been signed, humanity would be completely enslaved. The Empire did it because it was the only way to stop the war, giving them a chance to rebuild and gather power.

4. The Dominion is much bigger than the Stormcloaks.

Humans were enslaved before and successfully rebelled. IF humanity were to be enslaved again, they would rebel again and win again.

 

[Janus3003]

Don't mind me, just posting somewhat relevant pictures...

 

[Docta Corvina]

It is not on his list because likely, he does not benefit from it. Doing something because it is your duty and it is the right thing to do, it won't work on people like Ulfric. I will point to your precious lore and "The Bear of Markarth". Ulfric was asked to help, and what did he do? He first demanded that Nords be allowed to worship Talos openly and freely in Markarth. He expected something in return so he helped a fellow Jarl. If he was just asked and said "Okay" I would agree he should rescind the segregation policy. But at this point, he needs something to expect from doing so.

The thing is, he's not an idiot. He's a political savant, as much as I find that aspect of his to be utilized for less than ideal purposes. What he could gain - wild speculation not even necessary here - is very likely the start of goodwill, of trust on behalf of the Dunmer. Hell, if he really wanted to play his cards right, he should have rescinded the edict before rallying his troops in the current warfare, all of those years ago when the Stormcloaks as a group were in their infancy - or when he first took over as Jarl, knowing that the Dark Elves could be an eventual boon. Had he done so, he might have had a decidedly more unified and energized portion of his constituency - one willing to support him resource-wise, if not manpower-wise.

And if he's as charismatic among his own supporters as they say, any potential (and likely) backlash over the edict's repeal could have been smoothed over. I think he could have talked his way out of dealing with overly frustrated Nords.

 

[Jeremius]

The thing is, he's not an idiot. He's a political savant, as much as I find that aspect of his to be utilized for less than ideal purposes. What he could gain - wild speculation not even necessary here - is very likely the start of goodwill, of trust on behalf of the Dunmer. Hell, if he really wanted to play his cards right, he should have rescinded the edict before rallying his troops in the current warfare, all of those years ago when the Stormcloaks as a group were in their infancy - or when he first took over as Jarl, knowing that the Dark Elves could be an eventual boon. Had he done so, he might have had a decidedly more unified and energized portion of his constituency - one willing to support him resource-wise, if not manpower-wise.

And if he's as charismatic among his own supporters as they say, any potential (and likely) backlash over the edict's repeal could have been smoothed over. I think he could have talked his way out of it.

The Dunmer tell Rolff that it is not their fight, even IF Ulfric rescinded the law, they would not fight because it is not a quarrel they believe in (Talos Worship), so that would not get Ulfric more soldiers, only the gratitude of the elves.

 

[Docta Corvina]

The Dunmer tell Rolff that it is not their fight, even IF Ulfric rescinded the law, they would not fight because it is not a quarrel they believe in (Talos Worship), so that would not get Ulfric more soldiers, only the gratitude of the elves.

Not currently, obviously. But my scenario is not talking about right now in 201 (though I do think the law should be done away with of course). I'm saying that had he done away with the law years back, to give time to smooth over backlash and get the Dunmer to trust and foster goodwill, that may well have wound up in his favor. It's his loss, ultimately.

 

[Dagmar]

Tullius had the power, with this kind of information regarding to the Thalmor setting this war up, to temporary stop this war, and to make temporary alliances with both parties to deal with the Dominion. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The Thalmor didn't set the war up. Honestly your constant fabrications have reduced your credibilty in this thread too nil. The Thalmor dossier on Ulfric directly contradicts what you're claiming as it plainly states that they are to remain hands-off regarding the war. The fact that the Aldmeri Dominion benefits from the situation in no way supports the notion that the Thalmor created it. No one manipulated Ulfric into killing the High King and starting the civil war.

If Ulfric was interested in a joint effort to stand up against the Aldmeri Dominion he would have at least tried to negotiate with the High King to broker a peaceful seccession of Skyrim from the Empire and an alliance but he didn't want that. He hates the Empire. He's not stupid and he was quite aware that what he was doing was going to drive an irreconcilable rift between him and the Empire. Tullius has no authority to grant clemency to Ulfric and negotiate an alliance, not that Ulfric would ever be interested in it anyway. Only the Emperor can do that and it seems pretty clear what his marching orders were to Tullius.

Tullius Raijin failed again.

FIFY

 

[Jeremius]

Not currently, obviously. But my scenario is not talking about right now in 201 (though I do think the law should be done away with of course). I'm saying that had he done away with the law years back, to give time to smooth over backlash and get the Dunmer to trust and foster goodwill, that may well have wound up in his favor. It's his loss, ultimately.

It would not have worked back then, either, simple because of the reasons. Dunmer do not believe in Talos as a god so have no real reason to fight at all, segregated or not.

 

[JoeReese]

This is not analagous. The United Nations has no sovereignty over any nation that is a member of it and no citizen of any member state owes any allegiance to it. What would be analagous is the statement "If the United States Federal Government enforced an applicable federal law on the citizens of New York would those who defied the law be breaking the law?" The answer of course is yes.

My statement was about honoring loyalty, not breaking the law. Once you make the decision to fight for your rights, I can't imagine your primary concern is compliance with the law.

You might practice your own advice to read what was written, rather than what you would like to pretend is written. Otherwise, your analogy might be better-suited and even more accurate than mine. In either case, his is out the window.

 

[JoeReese]

I am beginning to wonder just how many more pages this debate will take, though, before people recognize that it was written to be a difficult choice, with neither side being wholly good nor wholly evil.

 

[PrisonerLizzie]

1. Fine, but it might benefit you to try to understand what you're talking about before you start telling people they're wrong.

2. Funny, because that's basically exactly what I've been doing this entire thread. But you, as well as others, choose to pretend not to see it and then start talking about how we've never told you. Need information? Go to the UESP. It isn't that hard. I'm sick of writing the same pl*** for people who refuse to listen.

3. This is ridiculous. So you're saying it's bad that the WGC postponed enslavement of humanity?? You're making up the most bizarre reasons to be against the Imperials. You're saying they're bad because they protected humanity for as much time as they could. Get real. Provide some valid reasons.

4. Saying "There's no way to speculate" further shows your lack of knowledge here. Yes there is. It's not rocket science. If you discriminate towards a specific race of people, they aren't going to come back and help you. The Aldmeri Dominion isn't nearly as big a threat to Argonia as it is to the humans.

5. That's not my fault. I've provided every f***ing reason imaginable, yet all you do is skeptically say "you haven't convinced me, you must be wrong." Honor =/= winning! Get that through your head! It's better to save humanity for as long as you can then cause the entire race to become enslaved because "i fight 4 honor lol."

You are so stubborn, you just refuse to accept anything. If something is laid right in front of you, you say it doesnt' convince you, so therefore it is wrong. If you refuse to learn about lore, (because people who do somehow don't have lives,) and you refuse to listen to the voice of reason, then I have no idea why you're even in this thread.

1. Fine, but it might benefit you to try to understand what you're talking about before you start telling people they're wrong.

I google, read, research and do all those things imagine that

2. Funny, because that's basically exactly what I've been doing this entire thread. But you, as well as others, choose to pretend not to see it and then start talking about how we've never told you. Need information? Go to the UESP. It isn't that hard. I'm sick of writing the same pl*** for people who refuse to listen.

Really because all I've seen from you is complaining that people don't know and ranting ranting ranting in a very game snob manner.


3. This is ridiculous. So you're saying it's bad that the WGC postponed enslavement of humanity?? You're making up the most bizarre reasons to be against the Imperials. You're saying they're bad because they protected humanity for as much time as they could. Get real. Provide some valid reasons.

Had you clicked on and read the link that was attached in my previous post you would see where it speculates that the WGC is only temporarily postponing human enslavement until the Empire is ultimately too weak. Postponement is not the same as stopping it as you had previously stated.


4. Saying "There's no way to speculate" further shows your lack of knowledge here. Yes there is. It's not rocket science. If you discriminate towards a specific race of people, they aren't going to come back and help you. The Aldmeri Dominion isn't nearly as big a threat to Argonia as it is to the humans.

Again as I said to you before foreign politics are a very tricky subject. Argonia isn't the only ship in the sea here. If the Aldmeri get their greedy little heads together and start eyeing up other territories then the enemy of my enemy becomes my friend. If you would like examples I will be more then happy to provide a LONG list of real world examples of this happening extending several hundred years up into the present day.

5. That's not my fault. I've provided every f***ing reason imaginable, yet all you do is skeptically say "you haven't convinced me, you must be wrong." Honor =/= winning! Get that through your head! It's better to save humanity for as long as you can then cause the entire race to become enslaved because "i fight 4 honor lol."

No you really haven't. You just keep rephrasing this Honor =/= winning and expecting it to be a different thing. The point is if you don't have values then you aren't really humanity anymore.

You are so stubborn, you just refuse to accept anything. If something is laid right in front of you, you say it doesnt' convince you, so therefore it is wrong. If you refuse to learn about lore, (because people who do somehow don't have lives,) and you refuse to listen to the voice of reason, then I have no idea why you're even in this thread

You are absolutely right about this. I am stubborn. And it takes ALOT to convince me. I want arguments to make sense. I want facts. And if it is changing my opinion it is a damn near impossible uphill battle. I didn't say that you didn't have a life, just that I don't have time to become a devotee to the lore of Skyrim. I do my best but if you want to ream me out for not knowing every god dammed little detail the people of bethesda ever put out there then I'm going to tell you why I don't know it. I don't have time. I don't have patience and I recognize that this is just a game. That doesn't change that my opinion is just as valid as anybody else's and I'm going to voice it.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

It would not have worked back then, either, simple because of the reasons. Dunmer do not believe in Talos as a god so have no real reason to fight at all, segregated or not.

Think of it this way, if Ulfric was already on good terms with the Dunmer and then started the war when the war came around Ulfric could say "hey can you do me a favor and make some armor, help provide funds, help farm and feed my soldiers etc. and in return I will give this". Since the Dunmer already like Ulfric they are far more likely to say "well we don't really believe in Talos but you have been fair with us and helped us out in the past. So I guess we could do that for you." In fact they are more likely to accept that than if they were offered equality, since they already view Ulfric as a good Jarl. If it was the present and the offer was equality they are likely not to trust Ulfric and would be far more resentful of them.

 

[Dagmar]

My statement was about honoring loyalty, not breaking the law.

This is a difference without a distinction. You're analogy is no more valid based on a concept of loyalty rather than law as you don't owe any loyalty to the UN by virtue of the US being a member state and you do in fact have a duty of loyalty to the United States that supercedes any loyalty you owe to New York. These loyalties are enshrouded in law.

Once you make the decision to fight for your rights, I can't imagine your primary concern is compliance with the law.

While there may be truth in this statement, it has no place in the analogy you attempted to make. That kind of position embraces the concept of a right of revolution as an individual right, not a collective one, and therefore has nothing to do with loyalty other than loyalty to oneself.

You might practice your own advice to read what was written, rather than what you would like to pretend is written.

You might want to take a variant of that advice and refrain from feigning that it's meaningfully different than what I noted.

In either case, his is out the window.

Agreed

 

[Dagmar]

Because he was running away. Before anyone could even try to be a voice of reason, he was all "You're not gonna catch me!". So lets say a criminal who is suspected of killing an unknowable number of people was trying to escape. What would you do?

Are you being facetious or are you actually trying to insinuate that betweeen the short walk from the wagon to the headsman's block Lokir was going to be granted a trial?

His fate would have been no different if he had not attempted to escape. I only fault him for zigging when he should have zagged.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

I just find it amazing how Stormcloack supporters believe Skyrim doesn't need the empire, but they don't acknowledge that the empire might need them. If there's so much to be angry about, do something constructive! Don't try to throw it out like trash.

 

[Dagmar]

...Stormcloack....

If it weren't a term so central to the discussion or if it were just a typo I would let it go but it doesn't seem to be since you do it consistently. It's spelled S T O R M C L O A K. There is no "c" at the end.

 

[Janus3003]

His fate would have been no different if he had not attempted to escape.

Eh, depends on when he was going to have his head lopped off. Alduin might have attacked beforehand.
Still, I see your point that it wouldn't have changed the Imperials' intentions.

I only fault him for zigging when he should have zagged.

Just once, I want the game to glitch and Lokir to get away.