The Pope and "Redemption" for Atheists

[Anouck]

If you have heard of god, are a good person, but deny him you shall go to hell,

That's the problem I have with religion, even though I am a Christian myself.

It is based on fear. People believe not because they are religious but because they fear the consequences if they don't..

EDIT:
(not always btw. I'm not generalizing)

 

[DemonOfFate]

I don't like it either, I'm friends with many atheists, and they're all nice people. But God's been in my life a'lot, perhaps I'll tell you the story of what has happened in the past few years at a later time, but the point I have to make is God is in everyone's life, it's just the question of if you're too ignorant to see how he acts.

 

[Anouck]

I don't like it either, I'm friends with many atheists, and they're all nice people. But God's been in my life a'lot, perhaps I'll tell you the story of what has happened in the past few years at a later time, but the point I have to make is God is in everyone's life, it's just the question of if you're too ignorant to see how he acts.

Ignorant? I know you don't mean it that way but it sounds like you try to say 'atheists are wrong' . Everyone has their own views on life. And even though I am religious I don't believe in God for 100%. Is that ignorance? Maybe.. I think I'm just too rational to believe in one thing and ignore all the other possibilities.

 

[utael]

And I have a problem with saying its ignorant to not believe. Science is proven and yet there are still people who claim it be false. I don't call them ignorant. The church has taught hate for those who don't believe. And that's a problem. Look at WB church they are the most coverages group that relies on hatred to spread.

 

[DemonOfFate]

I admit I should have worded that differently, and do you really think that everything that has every happened on this earth is merely a coincidence? We are far too complicated beings in a far too complicated universe for me to merely believe that everything ever is a coincidence. Sorry if I came out as insulting, wasn't intentional.

 

[Anouck]

And I have a problem with saying its ignorant to not believe. Science is proven and yet there are still people who claim it be false. I don't call them ignorant. The church has taught hate for those who don't believe. And that's a problem. Look at WB church they are the most coverages group that relies on hatred to spread.

If you read my post you would know that I didn't say it is ignorant not to believe.

Ignorant? I know you don't mean it that way but it sounds like you try to say 'atheists are wrong' . Everyone has their own views on life.

I respect everyone's view and I will never force my views on life and death down other people's throats. But I would like to be respected too. And many people treat me like an idiot just because I am a Christian..

 

[Anouck]

I admit I should have worded that differently, and do you really think that everything that has every happened on this earth is merely a coincidence? We are far too complicated beings in a far too complicated universe for me to merely believe that everything ever is a coincidence. Sorry if I came out as insulting, wasn't intentional.

Please people.. Don't start arguing about God. Either he exists or he doesn't. We won't get a clear answer until the day we die and I think we should accept that.

If we are going to discuss the God / no God thing I foresee a discussion as big as the Imperial/Stormcloak thread

.. There is no end to that,
and no answer either...

 

[Janus3003]

If we are going to discuss the God / no God thing I foresee a discussion as big as the Imperial/Stormcloak thread

A priest tried to cut my head off! To believe in God is to support the Illuminati!!!

 

[DemonOfFate]

My mom always taught me don't talk about religion and politics if you want to have friends, and what is the first thing I do on a new forum? Talk about religion, and I was eyeing a politics thread...

 

[utael]

Sorry typing on my phone is slow and didn't see your post till now.

 

[Uther Pundragon]

Religion and politics. Two things that have been the cause of many wars. Personally I say live and let live. You don't have to believe in God to be a good person. Some people thank luck or coincidence or science or a God or spirits or many things for the good and bad stuff that happens in their life.

I personally think religion should be between you and whatever you believe in/worship. Let everyone else sort it out for themselves.

 

[Stephen Daidalus]

One other thing is this, you don't need religion to be morally right, but I'm of the opinion that it surely helps.

I find this to be a very interesting question. It has actually been examined in depth many times over the years, and the results are mostly inconclusive. A large meta-analysis published in the Journal of Research of Crime and Delinquency, however, did find that religious belief exerted a moderate effect on the likelihood of crime commission, but its affects were mostly seen in non-Whites and females and for non-violent 'victim-less' crimes such as gambling and drug use. White males do not seem particularly deterred by religious belief from commission of violent or property crimes.

It stands to reason that, even if faced with the possibility with Hellfire and Brimstone, if your religion permits you to be forgiven by a simple act of confession and penance, that theoretical punishment in the afterlife will not act as a very effective deterrent.

Being embraced by a tight-knit community of people who exert peer control by rewarding conformity to a set of moral standards does, however, seem to affect people in positive ways, but again, even this does not do much to prevent white males from committing violent crimes.

http://brewright.com/articles/If You Love Me, Keep My Commandments.pdf

 

[DemonOfFate]

To be fair, claiming to repent and actually repenting are not the same. To truly regret all your actions in the past is to repent, to claim to regret your actions because you don't want punishment is not the same. And yeah, I'm liking this community so far, as good if not better than my last one, and it was a good one. Hope to talk to you in the future Stephen (Oh and that's an awesome name you've got there, same as mine), you seem quite informative.

 

[Janus3003]

To truly regret all your actions in the past is to repent

I'd add that not repeating those actions and making amends (where needed/possible) are a part of repentance, too.

 

[Stephen Daidalus]

To be fair, claiming to repent and actually repenting are not the same. To truly regret all your actions in the past is to repent, to claim to regret your actions because you don't want punishment is not the same. And yeah, I'm liking this community so far, as good if not better than my last one, and it was a good one. Hope to talk to you in the future Stephen (Oh and that's an awesome name you've got there, same as mine), you seem quite informative.

Yes, it is true that, at least for Catholics, forgiveness requires an act of true contrition. I understand that Protestants also require a proper degree of repentance in the heart, but this doesn't necessarily mean it has any bearing on how a person feels when he is about to commit a crime.

If I am about to murder my wife and know that the act, no matter what I do after, will damn me to Hell, this is not the same as knowing that if I murder my wife and later come to sincerely regret it and vow never to murder any subsequent wives, I will certainly be forgiven. You may be able to make the argument that if you are able to recognize the wrong of an act before you commit it, --that is, you know you'll repent later-- that your later sincere repentance will -never- count. But I do not think Christians believe this.

Either way, I doubt most criminals who commit violent crimes are likely to engage their minds in such a convoluted internal theological debate before they act.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Re: the knowing and not knowing God discussion, this little thing I saw online earlier seemed appropriate.

 

[Uther Pundragon]

Sorry, had to inject a little humor.

 

[Stephen Daidalus]

I'd add that not repeating those actions and making amends (where needed/possible) are a part of repentance, too.

That's a good point that I think may be lost in some sects which are more heavily geared toward a singular act of faith that brings salvation and less toward the investment in community and the duties toward others. I can't claim to have a great deal of knowledge in comparative religions, but I would guess from what little I do know that both you and Demon of Fate belong to faiths that do emphasize duty to the community quite strongly.

 

[Anouck]

Religious people are usually very dedicated and disciplined - which can be a danger too if they have bad intentions. If you have to live your life by strict rules and constraints you will probably be more persistent and passionate about your beliefs than other people. That can be dangerous if a person's cause is wrong.

I realize I committed a lot of grammar crimes but I really struggle to explain my thoughts here.

 

[Anouck]

A priest tried to cut my head off! To believe in God is to support the Illuminati!!!