Torn on the War in Skyrim

[AS88]

too many to list really, it would take hours and i don't have the patience nor stomach for it.. most recently theirs the thing about Ulfric supposedly wiping out half the other races in skyrim, he then even admitted that it was this Alduin dragon who was responsible but somehow still blamed it on Ulfric.. who knows what goes on in his head.
i dunno what else to say to you guys, i'm right and yall are wrong.. end of story, and you can stay in denial as long as you want, keep pointing fingers, whatever you like.. you are right about one thing tho, i am getting way too worked up over this online dispute and it is indeed very childish of me, for that i apologize.. i know beyond a shadow of doubt that i am right so why should i care what you people think?
i should have stopped posting in this thread long ago, i've been a member of this site for about 7 months now so i should know by now that nobody wins in these debates.. you have my word i will not post in this thread again.

I asked for one, and you mentioned the Alduin thing that DM talked about, so I'll go through that with you.

This video is the trailer for Skyrim, clearly. The first thing you see is a wall - Alduin's Wall. It depicts the Dragonborn Prophecy as contained in the Elder Scrolls, and a time when the Dragons will return. More specifically, Alduin (the World-Eater), who will return after "the time after Oblivion opened" (the Oblivion Crisis), and when "the sons of Skyrim will spill their own blood" i.e. the Civil War.

By starting the rebellion, Ulfric is effectively fulfilling the prophecy and has caused Alduin to awaken. Alduin's purpose is to destroy the world to start again. This isn't made up, and this isn't opinion. This is as close as you can get to 100% concrete lore, it's a vital turning point in the main storyline and is used in the official game trailer. The voice in the video is Esbern, who goes with the Dragonborn to read Alduin's Wall and discover the use of Dragonrend. The Greybeards also talk about the Dragonborn Prophecy, and how Alduin is capable of ending the world as a result of Ulfric's rebellion.

Had he dealt with Torygg peacefully, there may not have been any Dragons, and therefore no anointed Dovahkiin needed to save the world from certain destruction.

I'm glad you used this as your example, because it's about as clear-cut as you can possibly get in this game.


"And the Scrolls have foretold, of black wings in the cold, that when brothers wage war come unfurled!
Alduin, Bane of Kings, ancient shadow unbound, with a hunger to swallow the world!"

Thus, Ulfric is actually fulfilling the wishes of the Thalmor to render the Mundus inhospitable...

And returning the Aldmer to their Divine ancestors.

Et voila

Also, thanks for the Rep, Stig.

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

Also, thanks for the Rep, Stig.

My pleasure.

Always love to find out something new or be provided with an insightful aspect of lore.

I'm terribly nerdy in that respect, don't you know?

 

[Daelon DuLac]

The Stormcloaks are a legitimate response from the Nords as to what they perceive as a betrayal by the Empire.

But Ulfric has Twisted them, at times, to an extension of his own desires.

I do agree with you, but I truly believe that most of the Stormcloaks believe in what they do even if they have been manipulated by Ulfrich (who obviously has quite an intelligence and propoganda network given the size of Skyrim and that pretty much everyone in the entire provence has heard of him).

What I find truly bizarre in the whole situation is the murder of Toryyg. To me it seemed so completely unneccessary. Toryyg was a boy. He could have been easily manipulated (and was being so from Castle Dour as far as I could tell). It just seemed so short sighted for Ulfrich to do such a thing. We know he's not stupid and he had to know he was not going to be named High King any time soon after that. He had to know that the Empire would react, as would the Thalmor. What were his real motives? I always had the feeling he was out for more than just the "High King" thing.

While I know he has his own beliefs and opinions, what are his true motivations. He doesn't strike me as particularly idealistic. He's been around long enough and not only fought in the legion, but gone through the Markarth incident.

Just wondering. It's always bothered me. Especially some of the overheard conversations at the Hall of the Kings. They just don't seem to sinc with what's actually going on in the conflict.

 

[AS88]

The Stormcloaks are a legitimate response from the Nords as to what they perceive as a betrayal by the Empire.

But Ulfric has Twisted them, at times, to an extension of his own desires.

I do agree with you, but I truly believe that most of the Stormcloaks believe in what they do even if they have been manipulated by Ulfrich (who obviously has quite an intelligence and propoganda network given the size of Skyrim and that pretty much everyone in the entire provence has heard of him).

What I find truly bizarre in the whole situation is the murder of Toryyg. To me it seemed so completely unneccessary. Toryyg was a boy. He could have been easily manipulated (and was being so from Castle Dour as far as I could tell). It just seemed so short sighted for Ulfrich to do such a thing. We know he's not stupid and he had to know he was not going to be named High King any time soon after that. He had to know that the Empire would react, as would the Thalmor. What were his real motives? I always had the feeling he was out for more than just the "High King" thing.

While I know he has his own beliefs and opinions, what are his true motivations. He doesn't strike me as particularly idealistic. He's been around long enough and not only fought in the legion, but gone through the Markarth incident.

Just wondering. It's always bothered me. Especially some of the overheard conversations at the Hall of the Kings. They just don't seem to sinc with what's actually going on in the conflict.

Please, please, please, please, please stop putting a 'h' on the end of Ulfric.

I know it's minor, but please.

 

[Janus3003]

It's because Ulfric wanted to bang Elisif.

Spoiler

 

[Daelon DuLac]

The Stormcloaks are a legitimate response from the Nords as to what they perceive as a betrayal by the Empire.

But Ulfric has Twisted them, at times, to an extension of his own desires.

I do agree with you, but I truly believe that most of the Stormcloaks believe in what they do even if they have been manipulated by Ulfrich (who obviously has quite an intelligence and propoganda network given the size of Skyrim and that pretty much everyone in the entire provence has heard of him).

What I find truly bizarre in the whole situation is the murder of Toryyg. To me it seemed so completely unneccessary. Toryyg was a boy. He could have been easily manipulated (and was being so from Castle Dour as far as I could tell). It just seemed so short sighted for Ulfrich to do such a thing. We know he's not stupid and he had to know he was not going to be named High King any time soon after that. He had to know that the Empire would react, as would the Thalmor. What were his real motives? I always had the feeling he was out for more than just the "High King" thing.

While I know he has his own beliefs and opinions, what are his true motivations. He doesn't strike me as particularly idealistic. He's been around long enough and not only fought in the legion, but gone through the Markarth incident.

Just wondering. It's always bothered me. Especially some of the overheard conversations at the Hall of the Kings. They just don't seem to sinc with what's actually going on in the conflict.

Please, please, please, please, please stop putting a 'h' on the end of Ulfric.

I know it's minor, but please.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

So we're basically at the same dead end like in the "Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?" thread;

Choosing the Legion is more anti-Thalmor,
Torygg never had a clue,
Ulfric's diplomatic and foresighting skills suck quite badly,
Sweetrolls are innocent; always.

And I dare anyone to prove me wrong.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

So we're basically at the same dead end like in the "Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?" thread;

Choosing the Legion is more anti-Thalmor,
Torygg never had a clue,
Ulfric's diplomatic and foresighting skills suck quite badly,
Sweetrolls are innocent; always.

And I dare anyone to prove me wrong.

Tell my thighs about the sweetrolls, would ya, they say they're guilty as h**l!

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Tell my thighs about the sweetrolls, would ya, they say they're guilty as h**l!

 

[XIIGenocide]

Also, back on topic, I've noticed something that XIIGenocide may be interested in. This is dialogue from Ahtar, Solitude's Headsman and Jailor.

"I'd fancy a chance at that Jaree-Ra's scrawny neck. Filthy Argonian never would have set foot in this city, if High King Torygg was still alive. I can tell you that."

It seems that racism and xenophobia in Skyrim isn't a purely Stormcloak-bred issue, Anouck. If High King Torygg would have been disapproving of an Argonian in the city, maybe Torygg's and Ulfric's approaches are closer than what Empire supporters would like to think. Obviously there's only so much credit we can give this, as it's coming from Ahtar and not Torygg himself, but it's interesting.

I know about Jaree-ra. Don't tell me you haven't done the quest he provided to turn off the light in the lighthouse and force the ship to crash. Then, after you go and look for loot they try to kill you. Ahtar most likely knew about his criminal past but didn't have any evidence to stop him from entering the city. 'Filthy Argonian' might force me to pay Ahtar a visit tonight though.

 

[AS88]

Also, back on topic, I've noticed something that XIIGenocide may be interested in. This is dialogue from Ahtar, Solitude's Headsman and Jailor.

"I'd fancy a chance at that Jaree-Ra's scrawny neck. Filthy Argonian never would have set foot in this city, if High King Torygg was still alive. I can tell you that."

It seems that racism and xenophobia in Skyrim isn't a purely Stormcloak-bred issue, Anouck. If High King Torygg would have been disapproving of an Argonian in the city, maybe Torygg's and Ulfric's approaches are closer than what Empire supporters would like to think. Obviously there's only so much credit we can give this, as it's coming from Ahtar and not Torygg himself, but it's interesting.

I know about Jaree-ra. Don't tell me you haven't done the quest he provided to turn off the light in the lighthouse and force the ship to crash. Then, after you go and look for loot they try to kill you. Ahtar most likely knew about his criminal past but didn't have any evidence to stop him from entering the city. 'Filthy Argonian' might force me to pay Ahtar a visit tonight though.

Yeah I've done Lights Out loads of times. But if Torygg knew Jaree-Ra was a criminal, you'd think he'd just arrest him. The High King of Skyrim can't really be seen to allow criminals in his city. Ahtar's our point of reference, but Torygg's the one who would have supposedly not allowed him in.

Even if Torygg had been willing to let him in, we have to assume Ahtar's been given reason to believe that Torygg would have looked upon him unfavourably for being Argonian had he still been alive.

I accept that it's somewhat unreliable, but it's another chink in the armour, so to speak.

 

[XIIGenocide]

Also, back on topic, I've noticed something that XIIGenocide may be interested in. This is dialogue from Ahtar, Solitude's Headsman and Jailor.

"I'd fancy a chance at that Jaree-Ra's scrawny neck. Filthy Argonian never would have set foot in this city, if High King Torygg was still alive. I can tell you that."

It seems that racism and xenophobia in Skyrim isn't a purely Stormcloak-bred issue, Anouck. If High King Torygg would have been disapproving of an Argonian in the city, maybe Torygg's and Ulfric's approaches are closer than what Empire supporters would like to think. Obviously there's only so much credit we can give this, as it's coming from Ahtar and not Torygg himself, but it's interesting.

I know about Jaree-ra. Don't tell me you haven't done the quest he provided to turn off the light in the lighthouse and force the ship to crash. Then, after you go and look for loot they try to kill you. Ahtar most likely knew about his criminal past but didn't have any evidence to stop him from entering the city. 'Filthy Argonian' might force me to pay Ahtar a visit tonight though.

Yeah I've done Lights Out loads of times. But if Torygg knew Jaree-Ra was a criminal, you'd think he'd just arrest him. The High King of Skyrim can't really be seen to allow criminals in his city. Ahtar's our point of reference, but Torygg's the one who would have supposedly not allowed him in.

Even if Torygg had been willing to let him in, we have to assume Ahtar's been given reason to believe that Torygg would have looked upon him unfavourably for being Argonian had he still been alive.

I accept that it's somewhat unreliable, but it's another chink in the armour, so to speak.

Hmmm yea. But Jaree-Ra is a criminal, and is still INSIDE the wall of Solitude, thats more than can be said about the Argonians of Windhelm.

 

[AS88]

I know about Jaree-ra. Don't tell me you haven't done the quest he provided to turn off the light in the lighthouse and force the ship to crash. Then, after you go and look for loot they try to kill you. Ahtar most likely knew about his criminal past but didn't have any evidence to stop him from entering the city. 'Filthy Argonian' might force me to pay Ahtar a visit tonight though.

Yeah I've done Lights Out loads of times. But if Torygg knew Jaree-Ra was a criminal, you'd think he'd just arrest him. The High King of Skyrim can't really be seen to allow criminals in his city. Ahtar's our point of reference, but Torygg's the one who would have supposedly not allowed him in.

Even if Torygg had been willing to let him in, we have to assume Ahtar's been given reason to believe that Torygg would have looked upon him unfavourably for being Argonian had he still been alive.

I accept that it's somewhat unreliable, but it's another chink in the armour, so to speak.

Hmmm yea. But Jaree-Ra is a criminal, and is still INSIDE the wall of Solitude, thats more that can be said about the Argonians of Windhelm.

But like I said, if he was a known criminal, you'd think he'd be arrested anyway.

The fact that Ahtar specifically says that he wouldn't have been allowed in under Torygg's rule suggests that there's an undertone of ill-feeling there. And also, Solitude is a port city like Windhelm, yet Jaree-Ra and his sister are the only Argonians there. Perhaps Argonians know they're not welcome, or perhaps there's no reason for them to move so far west when they can do the same work in Riften or Windhelm (Hist forbid )

I'm not on any particular side here, I'm all for balanced and evidenced discussion, as I've said. Sometimes that means speculating and suggesting assumptions. That's all well and good, as long as those doing that understand that the view might be a stretch, or relies on factors of which we can't be sure.

 

[XIIGenocide]

Yeah I've done Lights Out loads of times. But if Torygg knew Jaree-Ra was a criminal, you'd think he'd just arrest him. The High King of Skyrim can't really be seen to allow criminals in his city. Ahtar's our point of reference, but Torygg's the one who would have supposedly not allowed him in.

Even if Torygg had been willing to let him in, we have to assume Ahtar's been given reason to believe that Torygg would have looked upon him unfavourably for being Argonian had he still been alive.

I accept that it's somewhat unreliable, but it's another chink in the armour, so to speak.

Hmmm yea. But Jaree-Ra is a criminal, and is still INSIDE the wall of Solitude, thats more that can be said about the Argonians of Windhelm.

But like I said, if he was a known criminal, you'd think he'd be arrested anyway.

The fact that Ahtar specifically says that he wouldn't have been allowed in under Torygg's rule suggests that there's an undertone of ill-feeling there. And also, Solitude is a port city like Windhelm, yet Jaree-Ra and his sister are the only Argonians there. Perhaps Argonians know they're not welcome, or perhaps there's no reason for them to move so far west when they can do the same work in Riften or Windhelm (Hist forbid )

I'm not on any particular side here, I'm all for balanced and evidenced discussion, as I've said. Sometimes that means speculating and suggesting assumptions. That's all well and good, as long as those doing that understand that the view might be a stretch, or relies on factors of which we can't be sure.

Hmmm that does seem a bit fishy, pardon the pun. With every post I find myself doubting the Empire evermore.

 

[AS88]

Hmmm yea. But Jaree-Ra is a criminal, and is still INSIDE the wall of Solitude, thats more that can be said about the Argonians of Windhelm.

But like I said, if he was a known criminal, you'd think he'd be arrested anyway.

The fact that Ahtar specifically says that he wouldn't have been allowed in under Torygg's rule suggests that there's an undertone of ill-feeling there. And also, Solitude is a port city like Windhelm, yet Jaree-Ra and his sister are the only Argonians there. Perhaps Argonians know they're not welcome, or perhaps there's no reason for them to move so far west when they can do the same work in Riften or Windhelm (Hist forbid )

I'm not on any particular side here, I'm all for balanced and evidenced discussion, as I've said. Sometimes that means speculating and suggesting assumptions. That's all well and good, as long as those doing that understand that the view might be a stretch, or relies on factors of which we can't be sure.

Hmmm that does seem a bit fishy, pardon the pun. With every post I find myself doubting the Empire evermore.

The power of persuasion is strong in some of us

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Hmmm that does seem a bit fishy, pardon the pun. With every post I find myself doubting the Empire evermore.

There is much to doubt, the Empire isn't flawless. In comparison to the Dominion maybe, but it's far from perfect even with a bar set that low.
Still the best you can get on a continent where wars among races/nations could go on for an eternity. At least there's some degree of acceptance in Cyrodiil. But with due respect it's not reaching out everywhere, just check on Morrowind's UESP page.

 

[DrunkenMage]

too many to list really, it would take hours and i don't have the patience nor stomach for it.. most recently theirs the thing about Ulfric supposedly wiping out half the other races in skyrim, he then even admitted that it was this Alduin dragon who was responsible but somehow still blamed it on Ulfric.. who knows what goes on in his head.
i dunno what else to say to you guys, i'm right and yall are wrong.. end of story, and you can stay in denial as long as you want, keep pointing fingers, whatever you like.. you are right about one thing tho, i am getting way too worked up over this online dispute and it is indeed very childish of me, for that i apologize.. i know beyond a shadow of doubt that i am right so why should i care what you people think?
i should have stopped posting in this thread long ago, i've been a member of this site for about 7 months now so i should know by now that nobody wins in these debates.. you have my word i will not post in this thread again.

I asked for one, and you mentioned the Alduin thing that DM talked about, so I'll go through that with you.

This video is the trailer for Skyrim, clearly. The first thing you see is a wall - Alduin's Wall. It depicts the Dragonborn Prophecy as contained in the Elder Scrolls, and a time when the Dragons will return. More specifically, Alduin (the World-Eater), who will return after "the time after Oblivion opened" (the Oblivion Crisis), and when "the sons of Skyrim will spill their own blood" i.e. the Civil War.

By starting the rebellion, Ulfric is effectively fulfilling the prophecy and has caused Alduin to awaken. Alduin's purpose is to destroy the world to start again. This isn't made up, and this isn't opinion. This is as close as you can get to 100% concrete lore, it's a vital turning point in the main storyline and is used in the official game trailer. The voice in the video is Esbern, who goes with the Dragonborn to read Alduin's Wall and discover the use of Dragonrend. The Greybeards also talk about the Dragonborn Prophecy, and how Alduin is capable of ending the world as a result of Ulfric's rebellion.

Had he dealt with Torygg peacefully, there may not have been any Dragons, and therefore no anointed Dovahkiin needed to save the world from certain destruction.

I'm glad you used this as your example, because it's about as clear-cut as you can possibly get in this game.


"And the Scrolls have foretold, of black wings in the cold, that when brothers wage war come unfurled!
Alduin, Bane of Kings, ancient shadow unbound, with a hunger to swallow the world!"

When misrule takes its place at the eight corners of the world​

When the Brass Tower walks and Time is reshaped​

When the thrice-blessed fail and the Red Tower trembles​

When the Dragonborn Ruler loses his throne, and the White Tower falls​

When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding​

The World-Eater wakes, and the Wheel turns upon the Last Dragonborn.​

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Book_of_the_Dragonborn​

​

So we're basically at the same dead end like in the "Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?" thread;

Choosing the Legion is more anti-Thalmor,

The Legion has had 150 years of knowing the Thalmor threat, knowing they are dangerous. What is twenty six years compared to that.

Ulfric's diplomatic and foresighting skills suck quite badly,

Ulfric: "Is there any news from High Rock?"
Galmar: "Not a peep. Those prissy Bretons can't be made to lift a finger to help their neighbors."
Ulfric: "I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. They've never had many problems with the Empire."
Galmar: "Those milk drinkers? Might as well be elves. Think they're better than us."
Ulfric: "Regardless. It appears Skyrim must stand alone. Again."

 

[DrunkenMage]

forgive me for thinking you had actually come to your senses, i should have known better.. i was almost proud of you m8.
and where are all these supposed posts of me going ape pl*** and spewing out insults to everyone on this thread? i've looked and i can't find it..
lets see if you can post just one example of me insulting someone where it wasn't in defense, i seriously want to see it.

I never left my senses anywhere. You obviously haven't looked very hard.

imperial fanboys like Drunkenmage will tell you yes, but he doesn't go by the "actual" story of the game itself so i urge you not to fall for his bs and do your own research.

That was your first post on this thread. Your first! "Imperial fanboys" and calling his point of view "bs" before he's even presented it is offensive, personal and insulting. I could go through every single post of yours on this thread and find similar examples. The fact that you're telling people that you've been subjected to insults and playing the victim is brilliant when the above is in your first post in this thread. You commented on this thread looking for trouble, and you've found about twelve completely unnecessary pages of it.

I hoped that you had come to your senses by acting reasonably in the other threads, we've even discussed other topics between ourselves. I don't know what it is about this topic that makes you completely lose control.

Let's not forget the other post.

it doesn't matter how much i prove you wrong on this m8, you're going to believe what you want.. as for the book you posted, from what little i read of it, all it consisted of is made up nonsense you mostly posted yourself, you're not fooling anyone.. i could do the same thing if i wanted but like you it would prove nothing.. now take your fanboyism else where, good gosh you're an annoying little man, you're like a dog with a frizbee..

Which the 'book' In HappyFaceClown's world of facts, was actually in-game dialogue. But to Clown's world of lore and facts, in-game information is made up!

i have provided lore facts

 

[DrunkenMage]

I do agree with you, but I truly believe that most of the Stormcloaks believe in what they do even if they have been manipulated by Ulfrich (who obviously has quite an intelligence and propoganda network given the size of Skyrim and that pretty much everyone in the entire provence has heard of him).

He's the Jarl of Windhelm, the city built by Ysgramor. If because people have heard of him is a bad thing in Skyrim then the Empire must be a monster because everyone knows the Emperor Titus Mede II.

What I find truly bizarre in the whole situation is the murder of Toryyg. To me it seemed so completely unneccessary. Toryyg was a boy. He could have been easily manipulated (and was being so from Castle Dour as far as I could tell). It just seemed so short sighted for Ulfrich to do such a thing. We know he's not stupid and he had to know he was not going to be named High King any time soon after that. He had to know that the Empire would react, as would the Thalmor. What were his real motives? I always had the feeling he was out for more than just the "High King" thing.

If we're to condemn Ulfric over Torygg, then you must condemn the Empire for the Elder Council assassinating Titus Mede II. High King Torygg was known for giving speeches of Empire this and Empire that. Skyrim is home to Nords, warriors, one does not simply manipulate to get their way. You face your problems head on, Torygg was considered a puppet king, killed because he accepted the challenge. No one forced Torygg to accept the challenge, he accepted knowing full well he would die.

Condemn Torygg for knowing he would start a war. Also Torygg was used to make a point.

While I know he has his own beliefs and opinions, what are his true motivations. He doesn't strike me as particularly idealistic. He's been around long enough and not only fought in the legion, but gone through the Markarth incident.

Just wondering. It's always bothered me. Especially some of the overheard conversations at the Hall of the Kings. They just don't seem to sinc with what's actually going on in the conflict.

Because they want a true Skyrim once more and a true King. "Back to the time when a king was a king because his enemies fell before him, and his people rose because they loved him."

His motivations are an independent Skyrim, his motives are the same as many Nords.

"When finally set free, I returned to Windhelm, and was greeted by a city in mourning, at one with my own grief and anger. Clamoring in angry voices, calling out for justice, for war, they sat me on the throne."

 

[spectre thief]

Hmmm that does seem a bit fishy, pardon the pun. With every post I find myself doubting the Empire evermore.

There is much to doubt, the Empire isn't flawless. In comparison to the Dominion maybe, but it's far from perfect even with a bar set that low.
Still the best you can get on a continent where wars among races/nations could go on for an eternity. At least there's some degree of acceptance in Cyrodiil. But with due respect it's not reaching out everywhere, just check on Morrowind's UESP page.