Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jeremius]

When opinions clash, egos do as well. You cannot help it. Even if you like the Stormcloaks better, there is ego in trying to win an argument on the forums.

Good on you. I am doing this to test my skills at debate, but you can presume otherwise. Assumption has obviously benefited others in the past.

Assumptions are really all anyone has. The evidence and lore does not say anything, but the minds and opinions and egos of the people reading that lore does.

 

[Vatonage]

Assumptions are really all anyone has. The evidence and lore does not say anything, but the minds and opinions and egos of the people reading that lore does.

And this involves the Civil War how?

 

[Jeremius]

Assumptions are really all anyone has. The evidence and lore does not say anything, but the minds and opinions and egos of the people reading that lore does.

And this involves the Civil War how?

Any debate, including on this thread, involves ego. Heh, I would go as far to say that the ENTIRE Civil War is based around ego.

 

[Vatonage]

Any debate, including on this thread, involves ego. Heh, I would go as far to say that the ENTIRE Civil War is based around ego.

Hmm, yes, so that is how it happened!

Oh, wait, you went off topic.

 

[Jeremius]

Any debate, including on this thread, involves ego. Heh, I would go as far to say that the ENTIRE Civil War is based around ego.

Hmm, yes, so that is how it happened!

Oh, wait, you went off topic.

What topic? There is a topic? I didn't know.

 

[Vatonage]

What topic? There is a topic? I didn't know.

Waiting for the glorious rebuttal from Mage. Surely he shall pull the magical book of lore out and disprove my very existence.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Empire letting the Thalmor hunt the worshippers down in the first place is justified? After the service these veteran Nords have given to them, they can't even worship Talos freely? Threatened by elves that their ancestors have battled for ages? The Empire lets this happen, but is dumbfounded when the Nords declare that they want otherwise? Idiocy.

The Thalmor Justiciars weren't even an issue for decades. Don't you think there is a reason the Thalmor are going out of their way to make the Empire look as bad as possible? Stormcloaks are just naive and don't understand the Thalmor one bit, they think they can simply push out the Thalmor...

The only idiocy is what the Stormcloaks plan to do. Give every Jarl an army... I love that, back to the Hold wars once more. Between the Thalmor and Forsworn, things are going to get interesting. The Forsworn problems will get a lot worse, and they're just like the insurgents the Thalmor love to fund.

We'll see what the wiki says about the new Stormcloak regime in Markarth: If the Stormcloaks take the Reach, Thongvor will replace Igmund as Jarl. When Markarth is under his control, unlike Jarl Igmund, who uses caution when dealing with the Forsworn, Thongvor reveals that his intention as Jarl is to violently suppress and enslave the rebelling dissidents by sending them to Cidhna Mine as reparation for the rebellion. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thongvor_Silver-Blood

Oh perfect, just the type of environment the Thalmor can exploit.

Slavery, racial segregation... Beautiful Stormcloak Skyrim.

 

[Vatonage]

The Thalmor Justiciars weren't even an issue for decades. Don't you think there is a reason the Thalmor are going out of their way to make the Empire look as bad as possible? Stormcloaks are just naive and don't understand the Thalmor one bit, they think they can simply push out the Thalmor...

The only idiocy is what the Stormcloaks plan to do. Give every Jarl an army... I love that, back to the Hold wars once more. Between the Thalmor and Forsworn, things are going to get interesting. The Forsworn problems will get a lot worse, and they're just like the insurgents the Thalmor love to fund.

We'll see what the wiki says about the new Stormcloak regime in Markarth: If the Stormcloaks take the Reach, Thongvor will replace Igmund as Jarl. When Markarth is under his control, unlike Jarl Igmund, who uses caution when dealing with the Forsworn, Thongvor reveals that his intention as Jarl is to violently suppress and enslave the rebelling dissidents by sending them to Cidhna Mine as reparation for the rebellion. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thongvor_Silver-Blood

Oh perfect, just the type of environment the Thalmor can exploit.

Slavery, racial segregation... Beautiful Stormcloak Skyrim.

The Sons and Daughters of Skyrim want freedom from a foreign Empire that seemingly doesn't care about them. An Empire that, in their eyes, bans their God and then starts prancing around with the Thalmor after a whole damn war with them, without even asking one Jarl about it. This! From leadership in another country! It might as well have come from another continent to them!

They may not have the most logical conclusion, but they are humans, which are creatures of emotion, not logic.

Independence from the Empire sounds good to them, so why not fight for it? The Empire resisting makes them even more assured in their cause.

To them, it would be better to be independent and openly oppose the Thalmor rather than the Empire that, in their eyes, lets the elves hop about Skyrim anyway, seizing Talos worshippers and murdering them in the night.

And honestly, could you blame them?

You seem to focus only on the long term goal of Skyrim surviving. Not the people of Skyrim that live within it. The very people who form Skyrim.

Many in Skyrim are neutral on choosing sides, but many worshipped Talos, so they are generally happy when Skyrim is liberated by the Stormcloaks. Many are indifferent, so luckily it wouldn't impede them much who's running things.

(I'm talking mainly about Stormcloaks and those who agree with them, the battered imperial supporters should probably just leave Skyrim if the Imperial Legion retreats.)

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Sons and Daughters of Skyrim want freedom from a foreign Empire that seemingly doesn't care about them. An Empire that, in their eyes, bans their God and then starts prancing around with the Thalmor after a whole damn war with them, without even asking one Jarl about it. This! From leadership in another country! It might as well have come from another continent to them!

They may not have the most logical conclusion, but they are humans, which are creatures of emotion, not logic.

Independence from the Empire sounds good to them, so why not fight for it? The Empire resisting makes them even more assured in their cause.

To them, it would be better to be independent and openly oppose the Thalmor rather than the Empire that, in their eyes, lets the elves hop about Skyrim anyway, seizing Talos worshippers and murdering them in the night.

And honestly, could you blame them?

You seem to focus only on the long term goal of Skyrim surviving. Not the people of Skyrim that live within it. The very people who form Skyrim.

Many in Skyrim are neutral on choosing sides, but many worshipped Talos, so they are generally happy when Skyrim is liberated by the Stormcloaks. Many are indifferent, so luckily it wouldn't impede them much who's running things.

(I'm talking mainly about Stormcloaks and those who agree with them, the battered imperial supporters should probably just leave Skyrim if the Imperial Legion retreats.)

Why now? Why not twenty six years ago or even ten years ago?

The Thalmor stirred things up, but why do it now? What has changed, the entire Imperial Army on their doorstep for one. The Empire had a six year head start in preparing for the second round of fighting, the rebellion effectively turns the Empire's attention away from the Thalmor and onto petty internal disputes.

Why should the Stormcloaks get a pass because they're not thinking logically, I can focus on the people living in Skyrim. They had little problems, Thalmor were very limited, things were fine.

Come Ulfric and his Son's of Skyrim, well what the common citizens tell us is that things got a lot worse. Speak with many NPC's and listen to their conversations.

1) People are starving
2) Roads are too dangerous to travel for villagers
3) Many merchants have fled Skyrim
4) Bandits are raiding farms
5) Prices are extremely high that even Jarls can barely afford to keep their city stockpiles up

I should support the Stormcloaks to make Talos worship legal? At the cost of isolation, possible starvation, slavery and racial problems to rise.

When does it become too high a cost? How many should suffer so Ulfric can selfishly take the throne, yes even Stormcloak supporters are saying he only wants the throne.

Tullius was able to best the Thalmor at their own game in capturing Ulfric. That gives me hope for the Empire, but not the Stormcloaks since they don't even understand the Thalmor threat. They're just enjoying the illusion of pushing the Thalmor out of Skyrim.

I'd take the painful truth over a pretty illusion any day. Skyrim has every right to become independent, but not with the Stormcloaks. Or at least until we kick the plops out of the 'Old Mary' Dominion as the Legion calls them.

 

[Vatonage]

Why now? Why not twenty six years ago or even ten years ago?

The Thalmor stirred things up, but why do it now? What has changed, the entire Imperial Army on their doorstep for one. The Empire had a six year head start in preparing for the second round of fighting, the rebellion effectively turns the Empire's attention away from the Thalmor and onto petty internal disputes.

Why should the Stormcloaks get a pass because they're not thinking logically, I can focus on the people living in Skyrim. They had little problems, Thalmor were very limited, things were fine.

Come Ulfric and his Son's of Skyrim, well what the common citizens tell us is that things got a lot worse. Speak with many NPC's and listen to their conversations.

1) People are starving
2) Roads are too dangerous to travel for villagers
3) Many merchants have fled Skyrim
4) Bandits are raiding farms
5) Prices are extremely high that even Jarls can barely afford to keep their city stockpiles up

I should support the Stormcloaks to make Talos worship legal? At the cost of isolation, possible starvation, slavery and racial problems to rise.

When does it become too high a cost? How many should suffer so Ulfric can selfishly take the throne, yes even Stormcloak supporters are saying he only wants the throne.

Tullius was able to best the Thalmor at their own game in capturing Ulfric. That gives me hope for the Empire, but not the Stormcloaks since they don't even understand the Thalmor threat. They're just enjoying the illusion of pushing the Thalmor out of Skyrim.

I'd take the painful truth over a pretty illusion any day. Skyrim has every right to become independent, but not with the Stormcloaks. Or at least until we kick the pl*** out of the 'Old Mary' Dominion as the Legion calls them.

Can we at least agree that the Dominion is full of asswholes? They make the Stormcloaks look like champions of equal rights.

 

[Vatonage]

Why now? Why not twenty six years ago or even ten years ago?

(1)The Thalmor stirred things up, but why do it now? What has changed, the entire Imperial Army on their doorstep for one. The Empire had a six year head start in preparing for the second round of fighting, the rebellion effectively turns the Empire's attention away from the Thalmor and onto petty internal disputes.

Why should the Stormcloaks get a pass because they're not thinking logically, I can focus on the people living in Skyrim. They had little problems, Thalmor were very limited, things were fine.

Come Ulfric and his Son's of Skyrim, well what the common citizens tell us is that things got a lot worse. Speak with many NPC's and listen to their conversations.

1) People are starving
2) Roads are too dangerous to travel for villagers
3) Many merchants have fled Skyrim
4) Bandits are raiding farms
5) Prices are extremely high that even Jarls can barely afford to keep their city stockpiles up

(2) I should support the Stormcloaks to make Talos worship legal? At the cost of isolation, possible starvation, slavery and racial problems to rise.

When does it become too high a cost? How many should suffer so Ulfric can selfishly take the throne, yes even Stormcloak supporters are saying he only wants the throne.

Tullius was able to best the Thalmor at their own game in capturing Ulfric. That gives me hope for the Empire, but not the Stormcloaks since they don't even understand the Thalmor threat. They're just enjoying the illusion of pushing the Thalmor out of Skyrim.

I'd take the painful truth over a pretty illusion any day. Skyrim has every right to become independent, but not with the Stormcloaks. Or at least until we kick the pl*** out of the 'Old Mary' Dominion as the Legion calls them.

(1)Why now? Talos. Talos was the breaking point. The Stormcloaks said "Why do I have to take this crap?" And decided to rebel. They didn't care about the Empire. Why should they? They have Skyrim in mind, not Cyrodiil.

(2) Possible starvation? Ulfric hasn't even began to start healing Skyrim at the end of the in game civil war. He will get armies, ward off the bandits, use Whiterun's many farms to feed the population, solve the economic problem, and make Skyrim self sufficient. You make it out as if an apocalypse hits Skyrim. As if the weakened Empire wouldn't have similar threats, they only have 3 provinces if they hold Skyrim.

 

[DrunkenMage]

(1)Why now? Talos. Talos was the breaking point. The Stormcloaks said "Why do I have to take this crap?" And decided to rebel. They didn't care about the Empire. Why should they? They have Skyrim in mind, not Cyrodiil.

(2) Possible starvation? Ulfric hasn't even began to start healing Skyrim at the end of the in game civil war. He will get armies, ward off the bandits, use Whiterun's many farms to feed the population, solve the economic problem, and make Skyrim self sufficient. You make it out as if an apocalypse hits Skyrim. As if the weakened Empire wouldn't have similar threats, they only have 3 provinces if they hold Skyrim.

Talos worship has been banned for nearly three decades, it isn't like it happened last week. Delayed reaction much...

"Pa, can you tell me about the Great War?"
"Well, thirty years ago them pointy ear bastards invaded us, but we showed them a thing or two."
"We learned about the White-Gold Concordat and the Talos ban in school."
"They banned what?"
"Talos worship, in the peace treaty..."
"Those bastards! Fetch my axe boy."

Yes, possible starvation. Farms in Skyrim are known to struggle by, with the exception of Rorikstead. It is how the Battle-Born's got rich, with such a high demand of product. Skyrim depends on the Empire for a lot of food, it isn't like back in the day when the Nords had holdings in Morrowind, High Rock & Cyrodiil. The farms could supply a fair amount but certainly not all of the country since the only reliable source is Rorikstead.

Majority of trade into Skyrim has halted, it is even affecting Solitude. "Mistress, the people of Solitude are destitute. Many are starving and desperate for work." - Silana Petreia

Skyrim has depended on the Empire for over an Era, it'll take a lot of time to fix economic problems. War with the Aldmeri Dominion isn't going to wait.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Can we at least agree that the Dominion is full of asswholes? They make the Stormcloaks look like champions of equal rights.

Of course. Even if the Empire loses the next war and the Thalmor take over, we'll mess up their plops in TES VI. But as a Stormcloak, you do realize you are in fact fighting the weakest the Empire has to offer? Auxiliary Legions, basically Militia according to Rikke.

What happens when these guys show up from Cyrodiil? The Nord Legions stationed in Cyrodiil have to come home some day... There are still thousands loyal to the Empire. Even the Breton Legions will have to pass up that way once they're done in the South.

Look at that badassery.

 

[Daryl Dixon]

Those of you saying Ulfric isn't a true Nord: Racist.

Its racism.

Ulfric was smart.

I'm no Pro-Stormcloak, but saying Ulfric is no true Nord is like saying you're not a true Aussie if you don't like steak....
Bad example but I had to use my own ethnicity lest I offend someone with a stereotype.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Those of you saying Ulfric isn't a true Nord: Racist.

Its racism.

Ulfric was smart.

I'm no Pro-Stormcloak, but saying Ulfric is no true Nord is like saying you're not a true Aussie if you don't like steak....
Bad example but I had to use my own ethnicity lest I offend someone with a stereotype.

Well technically... "My last patron was a true Nord. He was dressed in animal skins, had tattoos on his face... a real traditional type, if you know what I mean." - Teldryn Sero

Ulfric is missing the tatts.

Wouldn't that be meat pies for Aussie's?

 

[Jeremius]

Those of you saying Ulfric isn't a true Nord: Racist.

Its racism.

Ulfric was smart.

I'm no Pro-Stormcloak, but saying Ulfric is no true Nord is like saying you're not a true Aussie if you don't like steak....
Bad example but I had to use my own ethnicity lest I offend someone with a stereotype.

It is all a matter of opinion. I feel that Ulfric is not a true Nord because he backed down from a fight. He may have been smart, but he showed weakness, which is bad in Nordic Culture.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Those of you saying Ulfric isn't a true Nord: Racist.

Its racism.

Ulfric was smart.

I'm no Pro-Stormcloak, but saying Ulfric is no true Nord is like saying you're not a true Aussie if you don't like steak....
Bad example but I had to use my own ethnicity lest I offend someone with a stereotype.

I've said that Ulfric is not a true Nord before. And I stand on that statement, even if it's in the middle of a minefield.

Because on the subject of his 'Nordness' Ulfric recognizes that Torygg's father was a true Nord. But not Troygg. So this is good right? Wrong. Because Torygg's father wanted to keep the Empire together. Tiber Septim was a true Nord and as such, we can infer that a true Nord is an Imperialist.

However, I'll be reasonable as I usually am because it's got to be said there is a difference here.

There's a schism is all of this.

There are two types of Nords. Nords of Ysgramor and Nords of Tiber Septim. Type Y Nord is the kind of Nord who isn't into expansion. Type T Nord is the kind who is.

Ulfric is a type Y Nord, after Ysgramor.

Although Torygg's father was a type T Nord, after Tiber Septim.

But isn't it interesting though how the type 'Y's worship Talos and yet hate his Empire... and not just this Empire, it's deeper than that, they hate Imperialism itself. Yet, Tiber Septim became Talos because of the Empire and for no other reason. Interesting.

And I'm afraid that's all you're going to get out of me on this subject. XD

 

[Vatonage]

I've said that Ulfric is not a true Nord before. And I stand on that statement, even if it's in the middle of a minefield.

Because on the subject of his 'Nordness' Ulfric recognizes that Torygg's father was a true Nord. But not Troygg. So this is good right? Wrong. Because Torygg's father wanted to keep the Empire together. Tiber Septim was a true Nord and as such, we can infer that a true Nord is an Imperialist.

However, I'll be reasonable as I usually am because it's got to be said there is a difference here.

There's a schism is all of this.

There are two types of Nords. Nords of Ysgramor and Nords of Tiber Septim. Type Y Nord is the kind of Nord who isn't into expansion. Type T Nord is the kind who is.

Ulfric is a type Y Nord, after Ysgramor.

Although Torygg's father was a type T Nord, after Tiber Septim.

But isn't it interesting though how the type 'Y's worship Talos and yet hate his Empire... and not just this Empire, it's deeper than that, they hate Imperialism itself. Yet, Tiber Septim became Talos because of the Empire and for no other reason. Interesting.

And I'm afraid that's all you're going to get out of me on this subject. XD

I feel like no one ever talks about the Empire's faults.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

If he had been executed it would advance his position even further. Even so he thought they were going to get a fair trial.
Ralof: They wouldn't dare give him a trial. Treason, for fighting for your own people! All of Skyrim would have seen the truth then.

Helgen was the 'fair trial'. They're being executed for high treason which is why you have Ralof going "Treason, for fighting for your own people!"

They don't believe they've committed treason, so in their mind "Fair trial" would be charged with something else. The only other example of High Treason in TES lore met with the exact same fate as the Stormcloaks were about to. Summary execution.

Ulfric would have known that, besides being a Jarl, he also served in the Imperial Legion. He'd understand the law.

[/quote]

Thats exactly my point though. He knew if he was executed he would rile up the Nords and get more support overall.

 

[Jeremius]

Helgen was the 'fair trial'. They're being executed for high treason which is why you have Ralof going "Treason, for fighting for your own people!"

They don't believe they've committed treason, so in their mind "Fair trial" would be charged with something else. The only other example of High Treason in TES lore met with the exact same fate as the Stormcloaks were about to. Summary execution.

Ulfric would have known that, besides being a Jarl, he also served in the Imperial Legion. He'd understand the law.

Thats exactly my point though. He knew if he was executed he would rile up the Nords and get more support overall.

Not to be the post police, but you messed up your quoting.