Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jeremius]

Well in this case security. Unless you consider letting elves rape and pillage thier way through your country being a good emperor. Signing the WGC was a good idea. Let put it in terms you understand. If I put a gun to your balls and asked to renounce your god, would you say yes and worship when I'm not around or let me shoot? I wouldn't be suprised if you let me shoot, you seem like the "honor before reason type"...

Normally I would die, But if I was Emperor Mede, who knows.

 

[SilverSorcerer]

Dagmar

Let's put it this way, I'm discussing the current situation, while the history of the world is important for having the full grasp of things, why should it matter that much? When I'm seeing the Dominion agents torturing and killing for no good reason and the Empire turning a blind eye, do I really need to know that much of the lore to be opposed that? Is there some lore that somehow justifies their actions? And if it happened 300 or so years ago does it really matters?? You seem to think people shouldn't discuss current situations if they don't know everything, well I'm not sure you got far enough, how about if I don't know the grandfather of the father of the developer of the first game by name and know his life story I shouldn't comment on the current political situation in Tamriel...

The Thalmor are torturing and killing because the Empire, which Skyrim is a part of still, signed a treaty that in part outlawed the worship of Talos. The empire is turning a blind eye because the Thalmor are essential enforcing a law that they the empire agreed to.

Granted, I think the Empire made a crap deal and should be working to drive a wedge between Valenwood and the Summerset Isles, but hey thats just me.

 

[Dagmar]

Who is to say the elves weren't that self-centered when they moved in the first place? You seem to think people should care about you even if you only care about yourself.

That's completely irrelevant to the totally unsupportable position you took (and continued to take) in claiming the Dunmer's failure to support the Stormcloaks was the basis for their treatment by the Nords. It's clearly not which is why your claim to the contrary is wholly invalid.

 

[nogz]

SilverSorcerer

Exactly, that's why I'm opposed to this current Empire, which is basically just a puppet of the racist ruling party of the Dominion.

That's completely irrelevant to the totally unsupportable position you took (and continued to take) in claiming the Dunmer's failure to support the Stormcloaks was the basis for their treatment by the Nords. It's clearly not which is why your claim to the contrary is wholly invalid.

It's basis for further resentment, while they were probably better off before the war, I really don't have any sympathy for them the way they are going about things in their new home. And I also don't like being manipulated, it's like the developers are saying "oh look how bad they are treated, you should feel bad for them..." even though they clearly don't consider this their new home, don't support the nords and are self-centered..

 

[azali100]

Jeremius

Well that's idiotic. I'm more of a survive at any cost type myself. I mean I will go for that groin shot in a fight if things aren't going my way. Who cares about "honor" if its going to get you killed? Or in the case of the Empire, get thief citizens killed (or worse).

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[Jersey Dagmar]

Well, a normal compassionate human being would feel bad for someone who was being mistreated.

 

[Docta Corvina]

SilverSorcerer

even though they clearly don't consider this their new home, don't support the nords and are self-centered..

Actually, I would say they don't support the Nords who have been and still are oppressive toward them. Not all Nords in Windhelm support Ulfric and not all Nords in Windhelm have spiteful feelings for the Dunmer. Brunwulf being Exhibit A. And I will continue to refuse to blame the Dunmer for not openly and wildly supporting such Nords.

 

[Dagmar]

...while they were probably better off before the war....

This is yet another example of you making assumptions with absolutely nothing to back them up. Much like this statement:

And I don't think they are paying for rent or owning any property.

Based on what? Your innermost thoughts and fantasies? There is nothing in the game that indicates that the Dunmer didn't have to pay for their houses. This is simply a fabrication of your mind. You can think that Ulric and Galmar like to run around the Palace of Kings buckass naked in the wee hours of the morning too. You would have just as much substantiation from the game content that it happens as you do that the Dunmer haven't paid for their residence same as any other person in Windhelm.

I could care less about whether you have any sympathy for the Dunmer or not. I do care when someone makes a blatantly false claim about something in the game and holds it out as truth when it's irreconcilable with the lore, and is nothing more than their uninformed opinion, as was your statement about the basis for the local Nords treatment of the Dunmer in Windhelm. Any time I read something like that in these forums I'll point it out whether it comes from you or anyone else.

 

[nogz]

Docta Corvina

How exactly is giving them homes and jobs and food oppressive? Why should the nords even care that Morrowind got messed up? Was it their fault or something? There are so many ways they could have shown Ulfric and the Stormcloaks being complete asses I couldn't even begin to count them.. if they supported the nords, if they wanted to stand up and fight for their new home if they wanted to join the rebellion and Ulfric is being "I don't like you cos you are dunmer" then you might have a point, as it is presented I see it as a group of people wanting something for nothing and that's that..

Dagmar

Is somewhere stated that they own any property or pay rent? If not my assumption is as valid as yours no matter how many funny things about Ulfric you say..

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

How exactly is giving them homes and jobs and food oppressive?

Seriously, where's this Dunmer Welfare Center you keep speaking of? Was there an Unemployment office as well? Giving the jobless Dunmer benefits?

 

[azali100]

Seriously, where's this Dunmer Welfare Center you keep speaking of? Was there an Unemployment office as well? Giving the jobless Dunmer benefits?

I think he's letting his opinion on real world topics seep into the argument...

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[nogz]

azali100

You live in foreign lands if you conquer or the natives let you. Obviously the nords let them live there, no jobs means no food and I'm not sure but I didn't see dead bodies of starving dunmer on the streets of Windhelm..

 

[Docta Corvina]

Docta Corvina

How exactly is giving them homes and jobs and food oppressive? Why should the nords even care that Morrowind got messed up? Was it their fault or something? There are so many ways they could have shown Ulfric and the Stormcloaks being a complete asses I couldn't even begin to count them.. if they supported the nords, if they wanted to stand up and fight for their new home if they wanted to join the rebellion and Ulfric is being "I don't like you cos you are dunmer" then you'd might have some point, as it is presented I see it as a group of people wanting something for nothing and that's that..

First of all, it's been shown time and time again how the Dark Elves are in a fairly wretched situation in Windhelm. I don't know why the questions of "how" and "what" keep being asked, when it's been presented repeatedly. What it comes to then, perhaps, is that you simply don't find their segregation and limited opportunities something negative, because they somehow earned it for themselves. Giving them homes and food? Not sure if you're again looking back to your earlier unfounded assumption about the Dunmer being squatters, but it has in fact been shown to be dubious at best. Again, why would Ulfric suffer inhabitants who are effectively squatters? It'd be the most apt excuse for kicking them out forthwith.

My second point is that it's erroneous to continuously say that "Person/Group X doesn't support the Nords" when in the context of the Stormcloaks/Ulfric-sympathizers. There are very plenty of Nords who support the Empire and would consider themselves every ounce as much "sons and daughters of Skyrim" as the Stormcloaks do. The Dark Elves are reacting to the treatment they've faced. No one is saying that there isn't a history between them and the Nords. But when presented with the situation at hand, it's extremely difficult to see how it's at all to Ulfric's credit (as in, a positive point) and to that of the Stormcloak Nords/sympathizers who are not concerned with the Dunmer's basic well-being in any visible capacity. And you ask why the Dark Elves aren't falling all over themselves to aid these people? I fail to see the logic.

Indeed, why should the Dunmer have any investment in the people who have shown either hostility or apathy toward them? Yes, they live in Windhelm, finding their own way with the limited resources they have access to, under the rule of a Jarl who could probably not care about them any less than he does. I have never stated that Ulfric viscerally hates the Dunmer or other non-Nords. As I've said elsewhere, with Ulfric it's far more about stinging apathy. And that comes with its own host of negative implications.

Where exactly do you see/hear the Dunmer demanding "something for nothing"?

 

[Raijin]

How Ironic 11th Doctor for abusing the rating system to get back at me for giving you an off topic pin because you responded back to my post with a unrelated photo of crap. If you don't like having these pins marked on you then perhaps you shouldn't be posting these ridiculous photos that has nothing to do with the subject?

This is an idiotic response. Sorry there's no other way to characterize it. It's not a rumor that the Dunmer all live in the Grey Quarter, it's a fact. We have disinterested statements by 2 NPC's that they're quartered there by design of the State. We have no statements from any NPC to contradict this. Not even statements that allow the possibility by drawing the wildest of inferences.

I'm well aware that the Dark elves in windhelm live in the Grey Quarters. I agree it is a fact. I am speaking regarding to the accusation of Ulfric being a racist. People tend to voice their opinions about someone rather than speaking the facts. Where I come from it's called “Talking plops” which can lead to a serious ass-kicking. I've browsed through Ulfrics soundbytes so many times, and not one ounce of racism came out of this mans mouth. Same with Galmar. The Stormcloaks soldiers never said anything derogatory either.

Segregation exists in Windhelm regardless of your blind unwillingness to accept that fact. It also defies common sense that not a single Dunmer has ever decided to live somewhere else in Windhelm in almost two hundred years, especially given how lousy the living conditions are in the Grey Quarter. Belyn Hlaalu is a successful farmer yet he still has to live in the Grey Quarter.

I suppose you're right. I confess that I was wrong regarding to my segregation post. In fact it's rather common in our society. Theirs white neighborhoods and then theirs black neighborhoods. Then theirs Jewish communities and so on. Have you ever thought for a moment that maybe the Dark elves want to live close to each other? To have their own little communities to have sense of security just being together? Perhaps they're unable to afford these mansion like homes in Windhelm, and so they have to take what is offer to them?
Oh and Belyn Hlaalu doesn't go around and complain of his living conditions. In fact here's a couple of screenshots that you might want to look at.

The rest of the dark elves should look up to Belyn Hlaalu, and use him as an example.

Luafyn works in Candlehearth Hall, she doesn't live there. It's somewhat mind boggling when people point to a Dunmer nanny as proof that segregation doesn't exist. That's like pointing to the hired black house staff that resided in the house of upper class whites (for the convenience of their employers for those that are too dense to get that) in the segregated south of the United States in the early 20th century as proof that there was no segregation in the south which, of course, is a counterargument without merit.

Why is Luafyn working in Candleheart Hall when she could be working at New Gnisis Cornerclub? Also at some point or another she has to sleep, so I'm assume that she sleeps at the candleheart Hall when shes not on duty. As far as the segregation I admit that you won so theirs no need for me to continue to talk about it.

 

[azali100]

azali100

You live in foreign lands if you conquer or the natives let you. Obviously the nords let them live there, no jobs means no food and I'm not sure but I didn't see dead bodies of starving dunmer on the streets of Windhelm..

of course you don't see dead starved bodies in the streets. It's a video game and every city has about 20 residents in game. You don't see dead bodies of the starved in any city despite the fact this is a medival setting and every city should have them. What's your point?

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[SilverSorcerer]

SilverSorcerer
Exactly, that's why I'm opposed to this current Empire, which is basically just a puppet of the racist ruling party of the Dominion.

The White-Gold Concordat (the treaty between the Empire and Aldmeri Dominion) kind of reminds me of the Armistice that was signed between the Allies and Central Powers at the end of World War I. Both sides knew there'd be another war eventually, just one side (Central Powers) no longer had the resources and industry to continue the fight.

There will likely be another war if they are able to consolidate their power, as it is likely the Empire will continue to always obey Elven authority.

 

[nogz]

you simply don't find their segregation and limited opportunities something negative, because they somehow earned it for themselves.

Bingo. And not "somehow", it is told exactly how they earned it. They only want to think and take care of themselves? Fine, other people might just get the same idea.

There are very plenty of Nords who support the Empire and would consider themselves every ounce as much "sons and daughters of Skyrim" as the Stormcloaks do.

So they support a puppet government who lets the "sons and daughters of Skyrim" being tortured and killed for no good reason at all, I'm failing to see how this is any good..

Indeed, why should the Dunmer have any investment in the people who have shown either hostility or apathy toward them?

Show some investment first, then we'll talk, if the nords keep treating them the same then we are onto something here..

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

How Ironic 11th Doctor for abusing the rating system to get back at me for giving you an off topic pin because you responded back to my post with a unrelated photo of crap. If you don't like having these pins marked on you then perhaps you shouldn't be posting these ridiculous photos that has nothing to do with the subject?

You are the one who posted a picture of the Flintstones car. So, who was off topic first? I rarely use the negative rating system because I'm not as much as a douche as people seem to think I am. I use my memes and GIFs to display how I feel about yours and others idiotic posts. Give me negative ratings all you want Raijin, it doesn't bother me. You got the negative off topic rating because The Flintstones has nothing to do with the topic on hand, no matter how much you try to link the two together.



See, I'm at least funny.

 

[Dagmar]

Dagmar

Is somewhere stated that they own any property or pay rent? If not my assumption is as valid as yours

Not it's not. It's called an appeal to ignorance which is a basic logical fallacy. When one is the norm and the other is not, it's incumbent upon the party asserting the contrary to produce actual evidence, hence the example of claiming that Ulfric and Galmar go streaking in the Palace of Kings. That's the way logic and common sense work notwithstanding that some people have a knack for making common sense look like a supernatural power.

 

[azali100]

Bingo. And not "somehow", it is told exactly how they earned it. They only want to think and take care of themselves? Fine, other people might just get the same idea.



So they support a puppet government who lets the "sons and daughters of Skyrim" being tortured and killed for no good reason at all, I'm failing to see how this is any good..



Show some investment first, then we'll talk, if the nords keep treating them the same then we are onto something here..

Segregation is not justifiable in any way. Although it is pretty interesting how you try to justify it by making sweeping generalizations about an entire race. Not unlike the excuses for segregation used here in the States back in the day. Tell me again though, how did the entire race bring it upon themselves?

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