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Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

If it was "by the book" and "legal" why did Ulfric ride out of Solitude? Or better yet, why would Ulfric even need to wage a war if it was legal. Tradition does not equal legal. It was a duel by Nordic tradition, it was not a duel by Imperial Law. If anything Ulfric's actions are those of a zealot of Talos and a blood thirsty coward. He killed a "weak" king with little personal combat experience, and then ran from town to start a war all in the name of a God he could no longer worship according to an unenforced law. While I applaud you on using the term "assassin" properly I must say that just because a challenge was issued doesn't make it legal. At one time I could challenge you yourself Raijin to a duel and then shoot you and declare myself right in this whole debate and it was tradition to do so in many countries, but now law forbids that action. While the Empire allows legal duels, there are conditions and exceptions to those laws. Killing a High King is clearly one exception.

Because Ulfric Being in Charge=Empire Destroyed, and the Emperor does not want that? I don't know, just seems like a logical reason to stop a man you do not agree with, to keep your "Nation" together.

Plus, I think the fact that It left a void was a problem. If there was an heir and Ulfric did not want the throne, I doube this argumen would be happening.
 
Because Ulfric Being in Charge=Empire Destroyed, and the Emperor does not want that? I don't know, just seems like a logical reason to stop a man you do not agree with, to keep your "Nation" together.

Plus, I think the fact that It left a void was a problem. If there was an heir and Ulfric did not want the throne, I doube this argumen would be happening.
Of course it would still be happening. I doubt the Empire would allow people to go around killing kings whenever they wanted.
 
If it was "by the book" and "legal" why did Ulfric ride out of Solitude? Or better yet, why would Ulfric even need to wage a war if it was legal. Tradition does not equal legal. It was a duel by Nordic tradition, it was not a duel by Imperial Law. If anything Ulfric's actions are those of a zealot of Talos and a blood thirsty coward. He killed a "weak" king with little personal combat experience, and then ran from town to start a war all in the name of a God he could no longer worship according to an unenforced law. While I applaud you on using the term "assassin" properly I must say that just because a challenge was issued doesn't make it legal. At one time I could challenge you yourself Raijin to a duel and then shoot you and declare myself right in this whole debate and it was tradition to do so in many countries, but now law forbids that action. While the Empire allows legal duels, there are conditions and exceptions to those laws. Killing a High King is clearly one exception.

I cannot give you a decent answer as of why Ulfric had to storm out of Solitude without going into speculation. Perhaps it was the power of his thu'um that had people angry? Or maybe the residents there couldn't accept that their Jarl and High king lost to a duel, and went sour, and then begin to call Ulfric a murderous thug. You can't expect citizens to know everything there is to know of Law so maybe they didn't quite understand that what was happening was in fact legal? Torygg is suppose to know both local and Imperial laws. If he messed up and accepted the duel without asking the Empire permission... it's not Ulfrics fault but Torygg. Perhaps Torygg shouldn't told Ulfric to wait until theirs an OK with the Empire prior to the duel.
 
I ran over a cat today. It was weak and deserved to die even though it held my ideals. But, for some reason, when I bragged about it to my friends they said I was a monster for running over a cat. People are weird.

What does that have to do with Ulfric bragging about killing the High King? What was the point of posting this if you don't mind me asking you?
 
What does that have to do with Ulfric bragging about killing the High King? What was the point of posting this if you don't mind me asking you?
I think what he meant was, it doesn't matter if Ulfric thought he was right or just. The act itself was underhanded and monstrous by the standards of any fair society.
I'd like to ask you something, Raijin. Isn't the idea of Ulfrc getting a fair trial for killing the high king in an unfair fight to the death a bit of a double standard? One gets medieval justice, and the other a nice fair trial.
 
I cannot give you a decent answer as of why Ulfric had to storm out of Solitude without going into speculation. Perhaps it was the power of his thu'um that had people angry? Or maybe the residents there couldn't accept that their Jarl and High king lost to a duel, and went sour, and then begin to call Ulfric a murderous thug. You can't expect citizens to know everything there is to know of Law so maybe they didn't quite understand that what was happening was in fact legal? Torygg is suppose to know both local and Imperial laws. If he messed up and accepted the duel without asking the Empire permission... it's not Ulfrics fault but Torygg. Perhaps Torygg shouldn't told Ulfric to wait until theirs an OK with the Empire prior to the duel.
Or maybe they knew that no stable society can function like that?
 
The strength and power was there...
No it wasn't. If you read the The Great War: A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion you would realize that after the Battle of the Red Ring the Imperial Legion only had enough soldiers fit for duty to reorganize into 7 or 8 Legions at the most. 10 Legions were effectively lost by then. You would also realize that the Empire had no idea whether the Aldmeri Dominion had additional armed forces that would be launching a second offensive against the Empire because it no longer had any ears and eyes in the Dominion as all of its Blade spies had been executed by the Thalmor prior to the beginning of the Great War. From that perspective the war was far from over or won and the Empire was in a very precarious situation.

The only way for the Empire to decisively end the war by military victory would be to invade the Aldmeri Dominion and it simply didn't have the numbers to invade and doing so without having any idea of what it would face would have been a monumentally stupid act on Mede's part, especially after the Empire's disastrous invasion of Akavir in the Third Era under a similar situation but with a stronger Legion.
At the time The empire had Hammerfell, High Rock, Skyrim and Morrowind for aid.
Morrowind is not part of the Empire at the time of the Great War. It's part of the Argonian provinces. The Empire didn't have the aid of Hammerfell, High Rock and Skyrim. They were part of the Empire, not outside allies it could seek for aid, and they had already provided all the aid they could as their numbers were part of the decimated Imperial Legions.
Yes I firmly believe that the Empire, with the help of Hammerfell, High Rock and Skyrim, can easily wipe out the Thalmor, and could've very easily win the war.
You can believe what you want but it's not supported by the lore.
If Ralof was real he would disagree with you. He pointed out that the empire wouldn't give Ulfric a fair trial.
That's pure speculation. Ralof states that they wouldn't give Ulfric a trial and implies that the trial would rally more people to the cause, not that it would result in proving his innocence because that's an idiotic argument to make.
If he broke Imperial law shouldn't he be tried prior to execution?
No. As I stated before he has no right to a trial. Due process is not an existing concept in societies like those in the Elder Scrolls universe. They're political tools of the state and if the Empire decides it's better to dispense with the formality to minimize the chance of him becoming a martyr and draw out the conflict further then it's well within its authority to do so.
Doesn't he deserve to proof himself innocent by collecting witnesses and so on?
What witnesses? This is a senseless question. There isn't a single NPC in the game that bore witness to what happened that's not going to confirm that Ulfric killed Torygg. Regardless of the circumstances of that death a trial would end in Ulfric's execution.
Again how can Tullius say that hes guilty when he never step foot inside of an Imperial court?
Because he is guilty. You seem to be still caught up in this idea that guilt = guilt proven in a court of law under standards of due process in the United States or a similar nation which isn't the case at all. Ulfric's being guilty is a matter of fact.
 
I guess I am of the mind that Ulfric caused a war and is a traitor in that respect only.
If you kill your King you are a traitor. If you attempt to take over your government you are also a traitor. Our founding fathers were traitors. Your cause doesn't change the fact that you are a traitor.
 
If you kill your King you are a traitor. If you attempt to take over your government you are also a traitor. Our founding fathers were traitors. Your cause doesn't change the fact that you are a traitor.

I see the war=Traitor over killing the king=traitor.

Plus I see that he is a traitor to the Empire, not a traitor in my eyes, do the fact that I do not see the treason personally
 
I see the war=Traitor over killing the king=traitor.

Plus I see that he is a traitor to the Empire, not a traitor in my eyes, do the fact that I do not see the treason personally
How do you not see the treason? He killed his King. He was also an Imperial Soldier and by waging war on the Empire he has turned his back on the vows he made. He is a traitor.
 
Since Torygg did accepted Ulfric's challenge it's no longer High Treason since a vocal agreement was established through witnesses.
Your knowledge of jurisprudence is thoroughly underwhelming. As it's been pointed out to you before, an agreement to illegal conduct doesn't magically make the conduct legal, and an agreement between Torygg and Ulfric doesn't make Torygg's death any less of a violation of one of the most important laws of the Empire anymore than you and someone else agreeing that he's going to give you $1 million to shoot him in the head with a loaded elephant gun and you shooting him in the head with a loaded elephant gun after his payment any less a murder in the eyes of the law. The argument was a laughable one when you brought it up long ago and it's no less laughable now.
 
How do you not see the treason? He killed his King. He was also an Imperial Soldier and by waging war on the Empire he has turned his back on the vows he made. He is a traitor.

He did not betray my characters personally, so he may be a traitor to the empire, but he is not one to me personally.

The empire's beliefs are not mine.
 
He did not betray my characters personally, so he may be a traitor to the empire, but he is not one to me personally.

The empire's beliefs are not mine.
You... You make no sense.

If it doesn't matter what Ulfric did because he didn't do it to your character, then why do you complete any quests in this game?

After all, why should we care about the racism in Windhelm? It's not like MY character is being segregated. Also, who cares about Alduin? It's not like he's killed ME yet, right? Perfect logic.

In all honesty you're just making things up now.
 
Torygg is suppose to know both local and Imperial laws. If he messed up and accepted the duel without asking the Empire permission... it's not Ulfrics fault but Torygg. Perhaps Torygg shouldn't told Ulfric to wait until theirs an OK with the Empire prior to the duel.
Both Torygg and Ulfric are educated nobles and Ulfric served in the Imperial Legion. To assume either one of them doesn't know about the Imperial Law of high treason or that it makes their duel illegal is an absurd notion. Ulfric knew what followed was inevitable. It's one of the primary reasons why he challenges Torygg and why he hightails it out of Solitude and Haafingar to the safety of his Hold afterwards.
 
You... You make no sense.

If it doesn't matter what Ulfric did because he didn't do it to your character, then why do you complete any quests in this game?

After all, why should we care about the racism in Windhelm? It's not like MY character is being segregated. Also, who cares about Alduin? It's not like he's killed ME yet, right? Perfect logic.

In all honesty you're just making things up now.
I can actually see where she's coming from. Especially if her character isn't a Nord or Imperial. Then their politics don't matter. And I don't recall her even bringing segregation or Alduin into this.
 
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