Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[123]

I can actually see where she's coming from. Especially if her character isn't a Nord or Imperial. Then their politics don't matter. And I don't recall her even bringing segregation or Alduin into this.

...What?

What she's saying doesn't make any sense. "Ulfric didn't betray my character directly, so therefore he's not a traitor."

That's like saying "Windhelm doesn't segregate my character's race, so it doesn't segregate."

It's called a metaphor. 0_o

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

...What?

What she's saying doesn't make any sense. "Ulfric didn't betray my character directly, so therefore he's not a traitor."

That's like saying "Windhelm doesn't segregate my character's race, so it doesn't segregate."

It's called a metaphor. 0_o

She never said Ulfric didn't betray the Empire. But she's not the empire, is she. I hope that clarified.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

I can actually see where she's coming from. Especially if her character isn't a Nord or Imperial. Then their politics don't matter. And I don't recall her even bringing segregation or Alduin into this.

I would like to point out whenever they say "Imperials" when talking Stormcloaks or Imperials they don't mean as in the race it is meant as "of the Empire"

 

[Jeremius]

She never said Ulfric didn't betray the Empire. But she's not the empire, is she. I hope that clarified.

I am a guy. I am saying that I do not see him as a traitor to my character specifically, but the empire sees him as one to them. To me, he is a Nord with a grudge/bone to pick, that is all.

 

[123]

o

 

[Dagmar]

I'll make this simple. If you finish the civil war and kill Ulfric, he's in Sovernguard saying he was an idiot who weakened Skyrim and gave the Thalmor exactly what they wanted. The Stormcloack leader himself says he was wrong.

This is either pure fabrication on your part or an extreme distortion of Ulfric's actual special dialogue in Sovngarde to the point that it may as well be a fabrication.

Ulfric's dialogue only laments the fact that he realized Esbern's warnings were true too late, i.e. that the deaths caused by the civil war have empowered Alduin by supplying him with large numbers of souls of fallen Nords from both sides upon which to feed, thus leading to the destruction of many Nord souls and the possible end of the world. He never says anything to imply he believes his actions weakened Skyrim or gave the Thalmor exactly what they wanted.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

This is either pure fabrication on your part or an extreme distortion of Ulfric's actual special dialogue in Sovngarde to the point that it may has well be a fabrication.

Ulfric's dialogue only laments the fact that he realized Esbern's warnings were true too late, i.e. that the deaths caused by the civil war has empowered Alduin by supplying him with large numbers of souls of fallen Nords from both sides upon which to feed, thus leading to the destruction of many Nord souls and the possible end of the world. He never says anything to imply he believes his actions weakened Skyrim or gave the Thalmor exactly what they wanted.

Sorry! I've never really seen it. Just heard about his ghost regretting something about the war.

 

[Dagmar]

true... I don't think "Racism is common in Skyrim" is a good argument to join the Stormcloaks. Racism was also very common in America in the 50s but still it was wrong...

Yes but we're talking about a character you play not you yourself. In the context of being a product of his or her environment which is Tamriel, a relatively unenlightened world compared to our contemporary world with regards to egalitarianism in general and the immorality of acting on racial prejudices to the detriment of that race in particular, it actually is a perfectly acceptable reason as to why it would hold low priority in choosing sides for a citizen of Tamriel, particularly a Nord, and especially in light of the fact that it's limited to residential segregation as opposed to internment, slavery or genocide. If a player can put his or her character in a position where he or she believes that the Stormcloak Rebellion is trying to accomplish something that takes priority over the racism of Windhelm's apartheid policies then the decision to join the Stormcloaks makes sense.

For example observe the position of President Abraham Lincoln on the abolition of slavery not only taking a backseat to preserving the Union but actually being subordinate to it, i.e. if maintaining slavery was the most expedient path to preserving the Union than he would maintain slavery:

I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause.

Here your character has a similar choice to make. The choice is easiest to make if he or she is a Nord and truly believes that the independence of Skyrim is in the best interests of the Nords of Skyrim. This should really be the focus of the advocacy for choosing the Stormcloaks, as arguing that Ulfric isn't a racist or that he hasn't committed high treason under Imperial Law is a hopeless cause.

 

[123]

At least Skyrim is gay-friendly

 

[Bibbles]

I joined the Empire when I was a Khajiit because I didn't feel like the Stormcloaks would have accepted such a bad-ass-non-nord-cat-god-psycho-assassin-killer in their ranks.

I don't like the imperials for trying to cut off my head, but think, the Stormcloaks are the nords that are fighting for Skyrim's freedom, and the empire is essentially everything else.
But in the end, it doesn't matter.

Check out the rewards you can get in the guide book perhaps? Thats what I would do

make sure you play both sides at some point though!
Go with the empire, and then later make a Nord Warrior and bust ass.

 

[Raijin]

If you kill your King you are a traitor. If you attempt to take over your government you are also a traitor. Our founding fathers were traitors. Your cause doesn't change the fact that you are a traitor.

How do you not see the treason? He killed his King. He was also an Imperial Soldier and by waging war on the Empire he has turned his back on the vows he made. He is a traitor.

You're driving me insane over this discussion already. How many times do I must say that Torygg ACCEPTED the duel? How can Ulfric be a traitor when the High king himself accepted the challenge? Yes he can be classified as a traitor to the Empire for fighting against them... however Mede II could also be classified as a traitor for banning the worship of Talos ,Tiber Septim, who created the Empire. He could also be ranked down as a traitor to his own people, those that became a victim of the Thalmor for doing nothing wrong but to worship Talos.

Actions always comes with consequences. Although many don't particularly agree with Ulfric's views... they understand his reasons therefor they support him.

Both Torygg and Ulfric are educated nobles and Ulfric served in the Imperial Legion. To assume either one of them doesn't know about the Imperial Law of high treason or that it makes their duel illegal is an absurd notion. Ulfric knew what followed was inevitable. It's one of the primary reasons why he challenges Torygg and why he hightails it out of Solitude and Haafingar to the safety of his Hold afterwards.

Does this mean that Torygg made the educated decision to accept Ulfrics challenge to a duel? and the duel was in fact legal base on the decision of the High king? After all both parties know all about the Imperial laws, according to what you just said I guess Tullius is one of those Generals who loves adding charges, and has a deep sick fetish for decapitating peoples heads.

I'd like to ask you something, Raijin. Isn't the idea of Ulfrc getting a fair trial for killing the high king in an unfair fight to the death a bit of a double standard? One gets medieval justice, and the other a nice fair trial.

No it's not double standards. The duel was legal, and Torygg accepted it. It seems that you people are struggling to accept this because we keep going at it like an endless story. As far as it being unfair what if it was the other way around? Lets hypothetically say that Torygg used the voice against Ulfric... and then killed him in battle. Do you think for a moment that the people in Solitude would be accusing Torygg of being a murderer? Hell no. Would the Empire send Tullius over to arrest Torygg for murder of an Imperial solider? Hell no. Everyone in Skyrim would view their High king as another Tiber Septim.... a bloody hero that is.

Ulfric couldn't help it if the High king was weak and can't fight. He can't help if Torygg was man child. Only the strong should rule Skyrim. Just think of it as the orc's strongholds. Only the strong can bare children, and become the chief.

Torygg could've been a hell of a great High King if he spent more time improving himself rather than having endless tea parties with his lovable wife, Elisif the Fair.

 

[azali100]

You're driving me insane over this discussion already. How many times do I must say that Torygg ACCEPTED the duel? How can Ulfric be a traitor when the High king himself accepted the challenge? Yes he can be classified as a traitor to the Empire for fighting against them... however Mede II could also be classified as a traitor for banning the worship of Talos ,Tiber Septim, who created the Empire. He could also be ranked down as a traitor to his own people, those that became a victim of the Thalmor for doing nothing wrong but to worship Talos.

Are you being serious right now? We all know he accepted the duel, but do you think Ulfric challenged him with the intention of patting him on the back, sparing his life, and allowing him to continue his reign as king? We all know what Ulfric's intent was. He challenged Torygg with the intention of killing him and usurping the throne, and that, is treason.

Ulfric couldn't help it if the High king was weak and can't fight. He can't help if Torygg was man child. Only the strong should rule Skyrim. Just think of it as the orc's strongholds. Only the strong can bare children, and become the chief. Torygg could've been a hell of a great High King if he spent more time improving himself rather than having endless tea parties with his lovable wife, Elisif the Fair.

That is some flawed thinking. In the end a King is a politician not a soldier. A King's capabilities in a one on one fight do not decide his right to rule or his competence as a leader. Ulfric Stormcloak, a powerful warrior himself, has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he lacks the ability to take on a diplomatic role and often resorts to brute force. Toryggs death is evidence of this, as is the invasion of Whiterun. Great Generals do not always make good kings, and even as a General he is outdone by Tullius who has him captured and ready for execution within a year of the rebellion. He would not make a good King, and yet, wasn't it Ulfric that won the duel?

And shame on you for condemning someone for caring for their wife. At least Torygg had one. All Ulfric had was Galmar.

 

[Janus3003]

And shame on you for condemning someone for caring for their wife. At least Torygg had one. All Ulfric had was Galmar.

"Oh, Galmar, Torygg and Elisif are so cute together. How I wish I could know the softness of a woman's touch. Alas, I am overcome with a feeling most melancholy."
"This is most sad, my Jarl. Would a belly rub cheer you up?"
"Indeed, it might help very much. I shall lie in that patch of sun over there! Servants, fetch me melted butter!"

 

[Jeremius]

That is some flawed thinking. In the end a King is a politician not a soldier. A King's capabilities in a one on one fight do not decide his right to rule or his competence as a leader. Ulfric Stormcloak, a powerful warrior himself, has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he lacks the ability to take on a diplomatic role and often resorts to brute force. Toryggs death is evidence of this, as is the invasion of Whiterun. Great Generals do not always make good kings, and even as a General he is outdone by Tullius who has him captured and ready for execution within a year of the rebellion. He would not make a good King, and yet, wasn't it Ulfric that won the duel?

And shame on you for condemning someone for caring for their wife. At least Torygg had one. All Ulfric had was Galmar.

As to the bold, You never thought that Ulfric got caught because he may have been betrayed?
This seems the most logical conclusion to me, that the empire was tipped off where Ulfric was going to be, so the Empire ambushed them and caught him.. Just thinking out loud.

A real general would not need to be tipped off. He/She would more than likely try to ambush his/her enemy wherever they go.

 

[Janus3003]

A real general would not need to be tipped off. He/She would more than likely try to ambush his/her enemy wherever they go.

....a real general has the power to read minds, of course. Espionage and scouting is for the weak.

 

[Jeremius]

....a real general has the power to read minds, of course. Espionage and scouting is for the weak.

I am just saying that Ulfric was betrayed that was why he got caught, you can still be a great general. I was saying that Tulius Could have placed random ambushes along the routes Ulfric would have likely took and ambushed him that way, but it seems more than obvious that he had help.

 

[Raijin]

Are you being serious right now? We all know he accepted the duel, but do you think Ulfric challenged him with the intention of patting him on the back, sparing his life, and allowing him to continue his reign as king? We all know what Ulfric's intent was. He challenged Torygg with the intention of killing him and usurping the throne, and that, is treason.

Ulfrics full intentions is to kill him in LEGAL battle, and that's exactly what he did. Torygg accepted it and that's the end of this discussion. Theirs no denying that Ulfrics full intentions is to become the next High king of Skyrim after killing Torygg.

That is some flawed thinking. In the end a King is a politician not a soldier. A King's capabilities in a one on one fight do not decide his right to rule or his competence as a leader. Ulfric Stormcloak, a powerful warrior himself, has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he lacks the ability to take on a diplomatic role and often resorts to brute force. Toryggs death is evidence of this, as is the invasion of Whiterun. Great Generals do not always make good kings, and even as a General he is outdone by Tullius who has him captured and ready for execution within a year of the rebellion. He would not make a good King, and yet, wasn't it Ulfric that won the duel?

In your opinion it maybe flawed thinking but in fact it's not. A High King is not only a politician, but also a soldier. He should be able to fight in battle if a war erupted. Not to hide away in his castle like a cuddly bear that is afraid of getting his stuffing removed. In fact that Torygg was a sorry excuse of a corrupted politician that enjoyed Imperial coin. Like his wife he was young and inexperienced. He was a man child. According to his court wizard Sybille Stentor, Torygg had held Ulfric in high regard, and he may have been persuaded if Ulfric had simply asked Torygg to stand firm.

And shame on you for condemning someone for caring for their wife. At least Torygg had one. All Ulfric had was Galmar.

LOL all of the sudden were interested in Ulfric's sex life just because I made a tea party joke? Believe me I don't think Ulfric has any issues whatsoever with bedding with women. I'm sure Galmar has a line of women wanting to bed him as well. In fact women come to Ulfric and Galmar to join up with the Stormcloaks. That's why theirs so many women Stormcloak soldiers With an exception of Rikke and that captain bitch from Helgan... did you see any Imperial solider that was a woman? Of all this time I've never seen 1. It was all men Imperial soldiers.

 

[Janus3003]

With an exception of Rikke and that captain bitch from Helgan... did you see any Imperial solider that was a woman? Of all this time I've never seen 1. It was all men Imperial soldiers.

Sir, I have heard allegations that you are "a volcano of lust" in regards to a certain Dragonborn woman in the Imperial Legion. If the allegations are true, and I believe them to be so, then are you fully discredited from any statements regarding gender equality within the factions.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Raijin? I'll make this simple. The people's horrified reactions to Ulfric killing their king in a 'traditional' dual is called evolution. Even if they thought it was right in the past, do you really think something like that could last? There's a reason there are no more barbarian Vikings in the real world. Also, that dual was never once referred to as law, far as I know. I may be wrong, but at least I'm willing to admit it. Does the lore say anything about the last time it was invoked. Next time you talk about it being legal, please check your information.

 

[Dagmar]

Does this mean that....the duel was in fact legal base on the decision of the High king?

No it doesn't. Do you actually need to be educated about the fact that if you know that something is against the law and you do it anyway it doesn't magically make it legal? Refer back to my analogy about you killing the guy with an elephant gun by agreement. Let's try and make another simple analogy for you to absorb. If Mayor Bloomberg of New York City agrees to a gun fight with Ron Paul in Madison Square Garden and Ron Paul kills Bloomberg do you actually think that Ron Paul is not going to be arrested and convicted of murder under New York State law?