Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Zenoh]

Well i don't really know then i'm gonna research this...

 

[Moris]

Actually, the Emperor did fight and lead his forces in combat during the Great War and it was his leadership and strategic prowess on the battlefield that would eventually destroy the Aldmeri forces in Cyrodiil. Just so that we're on the same page and Titus isn't being made out to be a pompous and sheltered Emperor who's only view of war has been from inside the White Gold Tower.

So both of them lead their forces in combat, and have control over their respected factions both militarily and politically. Though Ulfric commands a force dwarfed by the Empire prior to the war, everything is scaled in the sense that Ulfric's ambush party consisted of Tulius and an unspecified number of legionaries.(It's stated they outnumbered Ulfric's men,) while Mede had another Empire to deal with. I'd more so consider Galmar as being a better match for Tulius.

Dagmar, well, you guys got me on this one. I really wasn't feeling good about the stance I had taken there to begin with.

I'll ignore the straw man, shall I?

You can compare the two. You can compare anything with anything. But I will not agree that it's a better comparison than between Ulfric and Tullius, who have mirror image quests, who command armies of similar size, who are presented in narrative as comparable opponents (the emperor is absent except for a few brief milliseconds), and whose ending scenario is almost identical. Sorry.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

I'll ignore the straw man, shall I?

Please point it out, I simply accepted to agree to disagree and gave you some information about Mede and ended it with a short summary as to why I think the comparison is better.

You can compare the two. You can compare anything with anything.

As I've said.

But I will not agree that it's a better comparison than between Ulfric and Tullius,

Yeah, well you know that's just like your opinion, man.

 

[Raijin]

Just because he posted an obviously bias gif doesn't mean you were wrong, he post that whenever he knows he can't provide anything to prove the claim otherwise.

So Ralof is wrong and you are right, eh? The fact to the matter is when you talk to Galmar about wanting to become a Stormcloak he says in exact quote:

Altmer,"...But first, tell me. Why's an Elf want to fight for Skyrim?"
Bosmer,"...But first, tell me. Why's an Elf want to fight for Skyrim?"
Dunmer "...But first, tell me. Why's an Elf want to fight for Skyrim?"
Khajiit "...But first, tell me. Why's a cat want to fight for Skyrim?"
Argonian "...But first, tell me. Why's a lizard want to fight for Skyrim?"
Orc "...But first, tell me. Why's an Orc want to fight for Skyrim?"
Redguard "...But first, tell me. Why's a Redguard want to fight for Skyrim?"
Breton "...But first, tell me. Why's a Breton want to fight for Skyrim?"
Imperial, Nord (?) "...But first, tell me. Why's a foreigner want to fight for Skyrim?"

All non-Nords races can then ask Galmar if he only accepts Nords, which will make him explain: "You mistake me. I'm not saying no - just wondering about your intentions. We're not looking for sellswords. The Stormcloaks need dedicated men and women who're devoted to the cause and willing to die for it." From that point forward, the initiation is the same for every race and Galmar is ready to hear your answer to his initial question. You can choose to explain you want to fight the empire, and he will say: "Can't fault anyone for that! As long as you hate the Empire as much as I do, that I can work with." You can also tell him that Skyrim is your home, and he will reply: "Fair enough. But are you willing to die for your home?"

Information taken off of: Skyrim:Galmar Stone-Fist - UESPWiki

Here's my adequate information that you so dear want me to provide to you.

And before you ask me why don't I see mixed race in the Stormcloaks... I do not know why. Perhaps Bethesda was lazy enough not to add them in... because it was more important to release the incomplete game that is riddled with bugs and glitches on 11/11/11

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

So Ralof is wrong and you are right, eh? The fact to the matter is when you talk to Galmar about wanting to become a Stormcloak he says in exact quote:

Altmer,
Bosmer,
Dunmer "...But first, tell me. Why's an Elf want to fight for Skyrim?"
Khajiit "...But first, tell me. Why's a cat want to fight for Skyrim?"
Argonian "...But first, tell me. Why's a lizard want to fight for Skyrim?"
Orc "...But first, tell me. Why's an Orc want to fight for Skyrim?"
Redguard "...But first, tell me. Why's a Redguard want to fight for Skyrim?"
Breton "...But first, tell me. Why's a Breton want to fight for Skyrim?"
Imperial, Nord (?) "...But first, tell me. Why's a foreigner want to fight for Skyrim?"

All non-Nords races can then ask Galmar if he only accepts Nords, which will make him explain: "You mistake me. I'm not saying no - just wondering about your intentions. We're not looking for sellswords. The Stormcloaks need dedicated men and women who're devoted to the cause and willing to die for it." From that point forward, the initiation is the same for every race and Galmar is ready to hear your answer to his initial question. You can choose to explain you want to fight the empire, and he will say: "Can't fault anyone for that! As long as you hate the Empire as much as I do, that I can work with." You can also tell him that Skyrim is your home, and he will reply: "Fair enough. But are you willing to die for your home?"

Information taken off of: Skyrim:Galmar Stone-Fist - UESPWiki

Here's my adequate information that you so dear want me to provide to you.

And before you ask me why don't I see mixed race in the Stormcloaks... I do not know why. Perhaps Bethesda was lazy enough not to add them in... because it was more important to release the incomplete game that is riddled with bugs and glitches on 11/11/11

Your basing this on the fact that the player can join in as any race. Obviously Betheseda wouldn't just prevent you from being able to join a faction because of your race. However when have you ever seen a SC who wasn't a Nord? If you could find me one then I will gladly accept that they allow other races into their military. It has to be an NPC too.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Well i don't really know then i'm gonna research this...

Smart decision.

 

[Raijin]

Your basing this on the fact that the player can join in as any race. Obviously Betheseda wouldn't just prevent you from being able to join a faction because of your race. However when have you ever seen a SC who wasn't a Nord? If you could find me one then I will gladly accept that they allow other races into their military. It has to be an NPC too.

If the Stormcloaks only accepted Nords to be part of their army wouldn't Galmar be rude to me? If I was an Altmer... wouldn't both Ulfric and Galmar be mighty suspicious of me?... Galmar would say something like "You're not a Thalmor spy are you?" or "You better leave now, Thalmor, before things get dirty" or even better "We don't accept your kind here, now leave before things get worst for you"

 

[Dagmar]

Well i don't really know then i'm gonna research this...

The Stormcloak rebellion is conceptually open to all races but it's undeniably a Nord nativist movement as the notion is enshrined in the oath of loyalty you have to make to join them.

"...All hail the Stormcloaks, the true sons and daughters of Skyrim!"

In the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe the term sons and daughters of Skyrim, also interchangeable with the sons and daughters of Kyne, is a direct reference to the Nord race.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

If the Stormcloaks only accepted Nords to be part of their army wouldn't Galmar be rude to me? If I was an Altmer... wouldn't both Ulfric and Galmar be mighty suspicious of me?... Galmar would say something like "You're not a Thalmor spy are you?" or "You better leave now, Thalmor, before things get dirty" or even better "We don't accept your kind here, now leave before things get worst for you"

For one thing, you're the dragonborn he'd be crazy not to accept you regardless of your race. Two, as already stated Betheseda isn't going to prevent your character from being able to join because of your race. That wouldn't be very practical game-play wise. You actually meet lots of Dunmer farmers that say they are going to join the SC cause, yet you never see them.

 

[Moris]

Please point it out, I simply accepted to agree to disagree and gave you some information about Mede and ended it with a short summary as to why I think the comparison is better.

This:

"Just so that we're on the same page and Titus isn't being made out to be a pompous and sheltered Emperor who's only view of war has been from inside the White Gold Tower. "

No one, in the last twenty screens once even suggested this was the case. It wasn't part of the argument. Mede's history was never brought up. It's not even remotely relevant. To bring it up now is to argue against a position that no one has ever taken. I don't think Raijiin has even taken this view.

This is potentially such a big straw man I think we should gather a few thousand hippie poets and artists to spend weeks singing songs and solving world problems while burning it, and when we run out of weed and sober up, perhaps we can name a festival after the event.

 

[Raijin]

For one thing, you're the dragonborn he'd be crazy not to accept you regardless of your race. Two, as already stated Betheseda isn't going to prevent your character from being able to join because of your race. That wouldn't be very practical game-play wise. You actually meet lots of Dunmer farmers that say they are going to join the SC cause, yet you never see them.

It continues Skyrim:Galmar Stone-Fist - UESPWiki

If you concur, he will explain that there’s a test before he will accept you: "All right. But before I can put you to use, I need to know how much you can take. I have a little test for you." If you ask about the nature of the quest, he will say: "The kind men use to measure themselves." If you, however, blindly agrees to take the test, he will gladly explain: "That's what I like to hear. So long as you can back up those words with steel." Both options leads to the task: "I'm sending you to Serpentstone Island. If you survive, you pass. If you die, well, you weren't going to be much use to me anyway." He will then explain the what you must do at Serpentstone Isle: "It's where men have tested their mettle for ages. There's a strange rock formation, built by the ancients. Something about that place attracts the Ice Wraiths. You kill an Ice Wraith out there, and I'll have all the proof I need about you."

At this point, four options are available:
"Does every recruit have to do this?"
"Only the ones I'm not sure about. This will prove your abilities, but more importantly, it will prove your commitment."
"I’m going alone?"
"Not so sure of yourself after all? At the end of the day, every warrior is alone. Before you can stand next to your shield brother, you need to be able to stand on your own."
"I’m not sure about this."
"When you kill that Ice Wraith, then we'll talk about you becoming a Stormcloak."
"I’m off to kill that ice wraith."
"We'll see about that, won't we?"

I just finish banishing this:

And Galmar is still isn't sure about me, and so he sends me so many miles (Thanks for the exercise) to kill this:

If he truly does know that I'm the Dragonborn he would knock off the bullplops and get to the real point.

And no I've never seen any Dunmer Farmers on the road telling me that their off to join the SC. You've mistaken that for an Imperial Farmer.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

This:

"Just so that we're on the same page and Titus isn't being made out to be a pompous and sheltered Emperor who's only view of war has been from inside the White Gold Tower. "

No one, in the last twenty screens once even suggested this was the case. It wasn't part of the argument. Mede's history was never brought up. It's not even remotely relevant. To bring it up now is to argue against a position that no one has ever taken. I don't think Raijiin has even taken this view.

This is potentially such a big straw man I think we should gather a few thousand hippie poets and artists to spend weeks singing songs and solving world problems while burning it, and when we run out of weed and sober up, perhaps we can name a festival after the event.

I think you misunderstood the strawman reference. I called Raijin strawman because he would continuously make baseless assertions combined with his opinions about why he felt something was the way it was while acting it as fact. And sadly Raijin has indeed taken this view before.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

It continues Skyrim:Galmar Stone-Fist - UESPWiki

If you concur, he will explain that there’s a test before he will accept you: "All right. But before I can put you to use, I need to know how much you can take. I have a little test for you." If you ask about the nature of the quest, he will say: "The kind men use to measure themselves." If you, however, blindly agrees to take the test, he will gladly explain: "That's what I like to hear. So long as you can back up those words with steel." Both options leads to the task: "I'm sending you to Serpentstone Island. If you survive, you pass. If you die, well, you weren't going to be much use to me anyway." He will then explain the what you must do at Serpentstone Isle: "It's where men have tested their mettle for ages. There's a strange rock formation, built by the ancients. Something about that place attracts the Ice Wraiths. You kill an Ice Wraith out there, and I'll have all the proof I need about you."

At this point, four options are available:
"Does every recruit have to do this?"
"Only the ones I'm not sure about. This will prove your abilities, but more importantly, it will prove your commitment."
"I’m going alone?"
"Not so sure of yourself after all? At the end of the day, every warrior is alone. Before you can stand next to your shield brother, you need to be able to stand on your own."
"I’m not sure about this."
"When you kill that Ice Wraith, then we'll talk about you becoming a Stormcloak."
"I’m off to kill that ice wraith."
"We'll see about that, won't we?"

I just finish banishing this:

And Galmar is still isn't sure about me, and so he sends me so many miles (Thanks for the exercise) to kill this:

If he truly does know that I'm the Dragonborn he would knock off the bullplops and get to the real point.

And no I've never seen any Dunmer Farmers on the road telling me that their off to join the SC. You've mistaken that for an Imperial Farmer.

He obviously knows your the Dragonborn, everyone else seems to. And I've met numerous Dunmer Farmers saying they were on their way to join the cause, but have yet to be seen.

Again, all I ask is that you provide a picture of one Stormcloak who isn't a Nord.

 

[Moris]

I think you misunderstood the strawman reference. I called Raijin strawman because he would continuously make baseless assertions combined with his opinions about why he felt something was the way it was while acting it as fact. And sadly Raijin has indeed taken this view before.

I wasn't referring to you, but to Mr. Self Destruct.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

I wasn't referring to you, but to Mr. Self Destruct.

I know, but what Mr. Self Destruct is saying is hardly grasping straws. He seemed to just be trying to clarify something. Atleast that particular quote, I haven't been following the argument that well.

 

[Raijin]

He obviously knows your the Dragonborn, everyone else seems to. And I've met numerous Dunmer Farmers saying they were on their way to join the cause, but have yet to be seen.

Again, all I ask is that you provide a picture of one Stormcloak who isn't a Nord.

When you're playing skyrim again can you take some screenshots of Dunmers telling you that their on their way to Windhelm to join up with the Stormcloaks? I've never seen it in my entire 700+ hours of playing skyrim. I've only seen it with Dunmers complaining about the way their being treated by the Nords, and going to Solitude to join the Imperials. Are we on the same page?

 

[Moris]

If he truly does know that I'm the Dragonborn he would knock off the bullplops and get to the real point.

And Vilkas wouldn't tell Kodlak that he's never heard of you either. This is a global problem in game.

And no I've never seen any Dunmer Farmers on the road telling me that their off to join the SC. You've mistaken that for an Imperial Farmer.

I have. They exist. Grog's not making it up.

 

[Moris]

I know, but what Mr. Self Destruct is saying is hardly grasping straws. He seemed to just be trying to clarify something. Atleast that particular quote, I haven't been following the argument that well.

I didn't say grasping at straws. I said a straw man argument, an example of which is you distort the other person's views (usually with exaggeration) with the hopes that they will begin to argue against a position they never actually took.

 

[Raijin]

I have. They exist. Grog's not making it up.

This is killing me now. I've never seen a Dunmer farmer saying that hes off to join the Stormcloaks.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

When you're playing skyrim again can you take some screenshots of Dunmers telling you that their on their way to Windhelm to join up with the Stormcloaks? I've never seen it in my entire 700+ hours of playing skyrim. I've only seen it with Dunmers complaining about the way their being treated by the Nords, and going to Solitude to join the Imperials. Are we on the same page?

Well I have no idea how to take screenshots, as I only play on the xbox. But if you walk on the roads they can be seen, as I'm not the only one to notice them. There have been numerous others who have said this too.