Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Moris]

Lol I never said you were ever hard on me. I didn't shift anything to Dagmar either regarding your long post, that was way after that even happened and it was in regards to a book as I've already said previously. The questions you had asked were towards the post I had replied to Ozan which was all backed by the lore, which is why I didn't know how I was expected to answer them. Your questions were filled with speculation and a little bit of your bias opinion, simple as that. They weren't merely assertions either, they were facts given to us in the lore. And if these were questions you seriously thought needed to be answered, then yes I'd say it's your responsibility to go chasing the lore so you are informed.

This is how you answer the questions. Instead of saying, "It's in the lore", you quote the book and cite the source.

Without citations, your assertions that something is in the lore isn't convincing.

And when you make a post that brings up certain questions which beg to be answered but choose to ignore them, it does suggest that you don't have an answer. If you did have answers that were backed by lore, why didn't you just post the answers and cite your sources?

All I have ever wanted from you are citations.

Dagmar gets away without offering them because... she`s Dagmar.

You`re not Dagmar.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

This is how you answer the questions. Instead of saying, "It's in the lore", you quote the book and cite the source.

Without citations, your assertions that something is in the lore isn't convincing.

Well the way I learned the lore was by reading peoples post and then checking up on it myself. If what they had said was wrong, then I would correct them. If not, I've just learned more about the lore. I suppose this is why I never put citations, because I always assume everyone else can just do what I did, or that if what I had posted was wrong someone else would correct me. I guess since you're new, you haven't really had a chance though.

And when you make a post that brings up certain questions which beg to be answered but choose to ignore them, it does suggest that you don't have an answer. If you did have answers that were backed by lore, why didn't you just post the answers and cite your sources?

Well if I ignore a question, it's because it's as it's suggested. I've already told you why I couldn't answer your questions. If what you had posted could have been answered without having to also speculate I would have answered.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

And then DrunkenMage makes a joke and we run with it. And somehow, now all of a sudden, this thread is SERIOUS! And how awful that we're picking on the poor Imperials!

I don't care who you pick on, I'd just rather see it backed by the lore instead of blindly attacking little things that they say.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Which does nothing to invalidate the observation that the Khajiit's claim is unsupported by logic or reason.
Technically no one is a citizen of any nation state by virtue of their race and there are a dozen named Khajiit in Skyrim that would beg to differ with your claim to the contrary. If you think selling your soul to an oppressive totalitarian fascist regime that regards you as vastly inferior based on your race somehow elevates you above the status of a Colovian you're about 12 bottles too deep into the Skooma.

 

[Moris]

Well the way I learned the lore was by reading peoples post and then checking up on it myself. If what they had said was wrong, then I would correct them. If not, I've just learned more about the lore. I suppose this is why I never put citations, because I always assume everyone else can just do what I did, or that if what I had posted was wrong someone else would correct me. I guess since you're new, you haven't really had a chance though.



Well if I ignore a question, it's because it's as it's suggested. I've already told you why I couldn't answer your questions. If what you had posted could have been answered without having to also speculate I would have answered.

I guess you never did any academic research. I am accustomed to the line of thinking that it is incumbent upon the one making a proposition to provide evidence (citations) to support it. That burden does not fall upon those who question those propositions.

In the absence of citations, I have only your word that you know what you`re talking about. In Dagmar`s case, I trust her. I don`t trust you.

 

[Moris]

I don't care who you pick on, I'd just rather see it backed by the lore instead of blindly attacking little things that they say.

It was a bloody joke! Didn`t you hear the man?

If you're referring to pointing out fallacies in logic, which everyone has been doing throughout this whole thread, then I'm sorry. You don't need lore to do that. Only a functioning brain.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

I guess you never did any academic research. I am accustomed to the line of thinking that it is incumbent upon the one making a proposition to provide evidence (citations) to support it. That burden does not fall upon those who question those propositions.

In the absence of citations, I have only your word that you know what you`re talking about. In Dagmar`s case, I trust her. I don`t trust you.

Upon request, I will cite what I say if you really can't trust what's fairly easy to find yourself. Otherwise, I see no reason as it's a waste of time on my part and laziness on the others. If it's really a problem that you can't find it yourself, just look for keywords and look it up.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

If you're referring to pointing out fallacies in logic, which everyone has been doing throughout this whole thread, then I'm sorry. You don't need lore to do that. Only a functioning brain.

It's not what I was referring to.

 

[DrunkenMage]

 

[Moris]

Upon request, I will cite what I say if you really can't trust what's fairly easy to find yourself. Otherwise, I see no reason as it's a waste of time on my part and laziness on the others. If it's really a problem that you can't find it yourself, just look for keywords and look it up.

You repeatedly insisted that other people show you in the lore where you could find support for their statements. Were you being lazy for asking? Why didn't you just look for yourself?

It's a matter of principle. I come from a tradition that says it's lazy to make a case that you, yourself, are not willing to support with evidence. A simple assertion that "Its in the lore" is not sufficient.

A lawyer does not go to court and say, "There's a precedent, your Honor, and if opposing counsel doesn't believe me, they can look for themselves and prove that it doesn't exist." He'd be thrown out for contempt.

ETA: Sometimes we can't find things in the lore because they're not actually there. It's a waste of time looking for something that doesn't exist; you'd be stuck looking forever.

It should be a lot easier for you to provide sources because you know where they are and where to look. After all, you've SEEN them.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

You repeatedly insisted that other people show you in the lore where you could find support for their statements. Were you being lazy for asking? Why didn't you just look for yourself?

It actually wasn't repeatedly, it was only when what they said could not in fact be found in the lore. So, no.

It's a matter of principle. I come from a tradition that says it's lazy to make a case that you, yourself, are not willing to support with evidence. A simple assertion that "Its in the lore" is not sufficient.

Considering that this is a game, and I couldn't careless if people thought that the lore that I've been reading on since Oblivion was wrong I'm not going to make it easier for them, like I've said it's really easy to find yourself. Did I ever say I was unwilling? I said upon request I will cite for you where I found the information, otherwise I see no point in doing it. A simple, "it's in the lore" to me is simple enough, because it allows others to know where they can find it. It really isn't difficult to look it up yourself and confirm if what I said was right or not.

A lawyer does not go to court and say, "There's a precedent, your Honor, and if opposing counsel doesn't believe me, they can look for themselves and prove that it doesn't exist." He'd be thrown out for contempt.

That lawyer doesn't have Google readily by at his disposal.

 

[Moris]

It actually wasn't repeatedly, it was only when what they said could not in fact be found in the lore. So, no.



Considering that this is a game, and I couldn't careless if people thought that the lore that I've been reading on since Oblivion was wrong I'm not going to make it easier for them, like I've said it's really easy to find yourself. Did I ever say I was unwilling? I said upon request I will cite for you where I found the information, otherwise I see no point in doing it. A simple, "it's in the lore" to me is simple enough, because it allows others to know where they can find it. It really isn't difficult to look it up yourself and confirm if what I said was right or not.



That lawyer doesn't have Google.

Oh, my. If you think every judgment has been indexed by Google, you're a bit naive. You should try doing legal research some time and see how long it takes you to find a case based on a few keywords alone.

When I ask you to clarify where in the lore something is it's because it's not clear to me what you're talking about. When it's not clear what you're talking about, it's very hard to figure out where you found something.

In any case, I see a lot of quotes, transcripts, book citations, UESP links in the pages of this thread. But I do not see very many coming from you, even though you use the phrase "in the lore" very frequently. It's for this reason that I am not automatically convinced by your assertions that something is in the lore. I apologize if I don't immediately accept your credibility the way your friends have. You have to earn that credibility in my mind. Of course, if you don't care what I think of you, that's fine too. But it won't stop me from insisting on evidence (not mere assertions of its existence ... somewhere) in future.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

ETA: Sometimes we can't find things in the lore because they're not actually there. It's a waste of time looking for something that doesn't exist; you'd be stuck looking forever.

Nothing I've said about the lore has ever been made up. Everything I've said can be found in the lore, if you can't find it, then you're not looking hard enough.

It should be a lot easier for you to provide sources because you know where they are and where to look. After all, you've SEEN them.

I never had to have anyone hold my hand, so why do others? Like I've said if it's truly so hard to where you can't find it, look for keywords or ask me to cite it.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Oh, my. If you think every judgment has been indexed by Google, you're a bit naive. You should try doing legal research some time and see how long it takes you to find a case based on a few keywords alone.

I'm saying this is the internet, and also not a legal case. Everything can be found on Google, you seem to take alot of what I say out of context.

When I ask you to clarify where in the lore something is it's because it's not clear to me what you're talking about. When it's not clear what you're talking about, it's very hard to figure out where you found something.

Then you should ask me more often where you can find it, it's really not hard to do.

In any case, I see a lot of quotes, transcripts, book citations, UESP links in the pages of this thread. But I do not see very many coming from you, even though you use the phrase "in the lore" very frequently.

The reason you don't see it from me is exactly because of the reason I've already stated.

It's for this reason that I am not automatically convinced by your assertions that something is in the lore. I apologize if I don't immediately accept your credibility the way your friends have.

I don't have any friends on this forum, I hardly talk to or care to know anyone enough to where I'd call them a friend. If people immediately accept my credibility it would either be because they've seen me post before, or they looked into it themselves. You're new so I don't expect you to believe I have any credibility, but I do however expect you to be able to look it up yourself.

You have to earn that credibility in my mind. Of course, if you don't care what I think of you, that's fine too. But it won't stop me from insisting on evidence (not mere assertions of its existence ... somewhere) in future.

You've never insisted that I ever cite what I've said, if you have I missed the post. Again, nothing I've said about the lore is made up. If you can't find it yourself for some reason, ask me and I'll direct you to it. Otherwise don't expect me to do it out of courtesy.

 

[Raijin]

 

[Ozan]

I fail to see what's laudable about not being oppressed by "foreign" rule when it's astronomically more oppressive by "domestic" rule. The bottom line is that the Thalmor ultimately run things in all three provinces of the Aldmeri Dominion and they do so with far more free reign to do things openly and exponentially more oppressive against the native populations be they Altmer, Bosmer or Khajiit than the Thalmor in Skyrim as evidenced by the purges they carried out in Valenwood to eradicate resistance to their rule. Things were bad enough before when Khajiit's were only being oppressed by other Khajiits like the free clans were by the potentate of Rimmen. One can only imagine they're far worse under the Thalmor.

Ozan would like to remind of Fort Frostmoth and the Colovian colony. Greed and spite tore and sway amongst the Colovian alone. Murders, brutal actions, an attempt to destroy so many...

And then in Vvardenfell... The Dunmer never trusted the legion as tgr legion imposed and hindered. A Colovian murders and then is smuggled out of Vivec. Do the Colovian legion support such acts? Apparently.

About the time in the Oblivion crisis, Leyawiin was ripe with Colovian dogs who said its too bad the Elder Council took the city away and gave it to spoiled Colovian nobles... but Khajiit must get over it?

The Dagmar knows much, Ozan realizes this much. So, he shall assume she knows the Khajiit faith... The Bosmer are never to be trusted as they only intend to impede. The Bosmer also makes a habit of killing innocent Khajiit, peaceful Khajiit. If the Thalmor deems it best to kill Bosmer, remind Ozan why he should care.

It is also worth mentioning Khajiit does not believe in the Talos. He is not common worship in Elsweyr. Khajiit have their own gods.

And to address the oppression of more local factors... what of it? Because Khajiit wishes not to be controlled by Aldmeri, would Khajiit wish to be controlled by Colovian? Aldmeri playthings? That is perhaps twice the oppression!

No, Khajiit shall support the Stormcloak. Should this fail, the Redguard. Ozan refuses to be enslaved by they who grant sands away from their people. Leyawiin, so long ago. Hammerfell, quite recently. And the Nord sands of Skyrim now.

Ozan shall say it again. Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

By fighting invincible foes, evil is thwarted. Would the Dagmar not join Colovian rebels when the Aldmeri took Cyrodiil? The Redguard when the Aldmeri was given Hammerfell? When the Aldmeri claims Skyrim in the shadow of the Colovian?

Ozan feels she has a good heart... Ozan feels she would liberate all, given the chance.

 

[Mannulus]

I like how a guy wanted a simple question answered and it became a 332 page debate that went so high that it hit the levels of Sheogorath.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

I like how a guy wanted a simple question answered and it became a 332 page debate that went so high that it hit the levels of Sheogorath.

People will go as long as it takes to prove that what they believe is better than the opposing side.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Ozan would like to remind of Fort Frostmoth and the Colovian colony. Greed and spite tore and sway amongst the Colovian alone. Murders, brutal actions, an attempt to destroy so many...

And then in Vvardenfell... The Dunmer never trusted the legion as tgr legion imposed and hindered. A Colovian murders and then is smuggled out of Vivec. Do the Colovian legion support such acts? Apparently.

About the time in the Oblivion crisis, Leyawiin was ripe with Colovian dogs who said its too bad the Elder Council took the city away and gave it to spoiled Colovian nobles... but Khajiit must get over it?

The Dagmar knows much, Ozan realizes this much. So, he shall assume she knows the Khajiit faith... The Bosmer are never to be trusted as they only intend to impede. The Bosmer also makes a habit of killing innocent Khajiit, peaceful Khajiit. If the Thalmor deems it best to kill Bosmer, remind Ozan why he should care.

It is also worth mentioning Khajiit does not believe in the Talos. He is not common worship in Elsweyr. Khajiit have their own gods.

And to address the oppression of more local factors... what of it? Because Khajiit wishes not to be controlled by Aldmeri, would Khajiit wish to be controlled by Colovian? Aldmeri playthings? That is perhaps twice the oppression!

No, Khajiit shall support the Stormcloak. Should this fail, the Redguard. Ozan refuses to be enslaved by they who grant sands away from their people. Leyawiin, so long ago. Hammerfell, quite recently. And the Nord sands of Skyrim now.

Ozan shall say it again. Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

By fighting invincible foes, evil is thwarted. Would the Dagmar not join Colovian rebels when the Aldmeri took Cyrodiil? The Redguard when the Aldmeri was given Hammerfell? When the Aldmeri claims Skyrim in the shadow of the Colovian?

Ozan feels she has a good heart... Ozan feels she would liberate all, given the chance.

When you keep typing like that? I have to wonder if it'll affect your writing elsewhere. I mean after constantly writing like that you might start referring to yourself in the third person which some would consider insane.

What about Fort Frostmoth?

As for Leyawiin "Leyawiin used to be a primarily Khajiit city that was part of Elsweyr, but was later annexed into Cyrodiil due to an agreement between the Mane and the Empire." So yeah Khajiit must get over it because "The Khajiiti government is a confederacy held together by the Mane"

 

[Moris]

You've never insisted that I ever cite what I've said, if you have I missed the post. Again, nothing I've said about the lore is made up. If you can't find it yourself for some reason, ask me and I'll direct you to it. Otherwise don't expect me to do it out of courtesy.

And I would ask you to refrain from using words like "always" and "never" unless you can be really sure about them. You didn't miss this post. You responded to it.

Okay, well, I'll repeat my question here and you can help me out. Because I have looked, and I am having trouble finding it.

Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one? | Page 306 | Skyrim Forums