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Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

DrunkenMage said:
The Aldmeri Dominion does not have Argonians.

They have Battlemages, and their infantry and archers. Imperial logic on the Stormcloaks is they lack any heavy infantry and they also lack any magic users. So without magic to combat their magic, it would end quickly.
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How do you combat magic.
Does every legionare gets his own battlemage who will cast firebolts at incoming firebolts or something?
Heavy infantry and mages dont go well. Speed and closing to the enemy is of the essence.
 
Two Bears said:
Their lands were indeed untouched by war, but their ability to wage war was effectively nullified. It is the only reason the Thalmor would agree to any kind of peace. After all they, had already taken the Imperial City. If they could have taken it back, they most certainly would have.



Which turned out to be disasterous for them, as their assessment of the military situation was overly optimistic. Both Red Ring and the Hammerfell insurrection prove that.



The Empire is most definitely weak. However, the Dominion is clearly doing a heavy amount of bluffing, much in the same vein as the Tribunal did with Tiber Septim.
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How do you know they are bluffing?
Has anyone spied on them?
 
Two Bears said:
Because if they weren't bluffing they'd be having a deck party at the White-Gold Tower.
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Why?
They arent men, they arent going to die in 70 years like a normal person would.
Gelebor, a snow elf is still alive after soo many years. I think AD can have a few hundred years, that isnt a lifespan for them.
While in that time men will forget and relax.
 
Mookie said:
Why?
They arent men, they arent going to die in 70 years like a normal person would.
Gelebor, a snow elf is still alive after soo many years. I think AD can have a few hundred years, that isnt a lifespan for them.
While in that time men will forget and relax.
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Life span has nothing to do with it. If the Dominion could have KO'd the Empire whenever they wanted, they would have done it, as failing to do so kind of throws a wrench in the whole elven superiority narrative. They can't. Their ability to wage an offensive war was negated, just as it was for the Empire. So, both sides as resumed defensive positions.
 
Two Bears said:
Their lands were indeed untouched by war, but their ability to wage war was effectively nullified. It is the only reason the Thalmor would agree to any kind of peace. After all they, had already taken the Imperial City. If they could have taken it back, they most certainly would have.



Which turned out to be disasterous for them, as their assessment of the military situation was overly optimistic. Both Red Ring and the Hammerfell insurrection prove that.



The Empire is most definitely weak. However, the Dominion is clearly doing a heavy amount of bluffing, much in the same vein as the Tribunal did with Tiber Septim.
Click to expand...

They were offering the Empire a chance to surrender quite often, they had already taken their objectives during the war, what reports from the war on the Dominion strength weren't known, they would more than likely had another another army in case they had to defend. The Imperial Legion and the Empire however could not form any sort of attack, they could barely guard Cyrodiil for even years after the Great War. The Dominion could take pot shots at the Empire for a thousand years.

The large success for the Empire was Titus Mede II's decision to abandon the Imperial City, no one figured he would do that, not even his own Generals would advise him to do it.

The Empire is not exactly weak now, the Dominion attack had united the Empire more than it has been in hundreds of years. The problems now have been their doing using Ulfric for their advantage.

The Thalmor take their view in the long run, war today or peace today. Doesn't matter too much, they look at centuries as we look at years. They were silent for seventy years before ever making contact with the Empire.

Since it was the Empire who had reached out to them, they were allowed to play their hand, they may or may not have needed peace but the Empire didn't know. All of their Intelligence forces had been effectively wiped out during the war, the Empire was blind to what was out there. The Thalmor had the upper hand of uncertainty, the Empire was asking for peace, not just Titus Mede II.

Though the terms of a treaty have nothing to do with Titus Mede II, that is handled by the Elder Council, Titus II doesn't have his own administration. The Elder Council are not elected members of a parliament. They bought their membership, they are the wealthy and the powerful. The Emperor has the power of veto.
 
Mookie said:
How do you combat magic.
Does every legionare gets his own battlemage who will cast firebolts at incoming firebolts or something?
Heavy infantry and mages dont go well. Speed and closing to the enemy is of the essence.
Click to expand...

The Imperial Legion have perfected their fighting style since the days of Reman Cyrodiil in the First Era. Very rarely do you find the Legions in the shape they were after the Great War, the Aldmeri Dominion are a very great threat. No force on Tamriel has forced the Legion into the position of being unable to attack.
 
DrunkenMage said:
They were offering the Empire a chance to surrender quite often, they had already taken their objectives during the war, what reports from the war on the Dominion strength weren't known, they would more than likely had another another army in case they had to defend. The Imperial Legion and the Empire however could not form any sort of attack, they could barely guard Cyrodiil for even years after the Great War. The Dominion could take pot shots at the Empire for a thousand years.

The large success for the Empire was Titus Mede II's decision to abandon the Imperial City, no one figured he would do that, not even his own Generals would advise him to do it.

The Empire is not exactly weak now, the Dominion attack had united the Empire more than it has been in hundreds of years. The problems now have been their doing using Ulfric for their advantage.

The Thalmor take their view in the long run, war today or peace today. Doesn't matter too much, they look at centuries as we look at years. They were silent for seventy years before ever making contact with the Empire.

Since it was the Empire who had reached out to them, they were allowed to play their hand, they may or may not have needed peace but the Empire didn't know. All of their Intelligence forces had been effectively wiped out during the war, the Empire was blind to what was out there. The Thalmor had the upper hand of uncertainty, the Empire was asking for peace, not just Titus Mede II.

Though the terms of a treaty have nothing to do with Titus Mede II, that is handled by the Elder Council, Titus II doesn't have his own administration. The Elder Council are not elected members of a parliament. They bought their membership, they are the wealthy and the powerful. The Emperor has the power of veto.
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Sorry, for the massive quote, but I didn't want you to think I was cherry picking. The Stormcloak uprising is an excellent point relating to that which I was trying to make. Nation states don't use subterfuge when direct conflict is an option, as full war is usually faster and more effective at achieving those ends.

The Franco Prussian War is a good example of this. The Congress of Vienna that ended the Napoleonic Wars set a balance of power that heavily favored France in continental affairs. This was a long-standing thorn in the side of Prussia, which sought German unification through largely political ends of various sorts. So, when France thwarted a candidacy for a Prussian King of Spain, Otto von Bismarck finally was all screw this, we're stronger, let's just have it out.

And that's just the point. States typically adhere to large-scale subterfuge so long as the balance of arms remain outside of their favor. One that balance changes, direct conflict is the preferred approach.
 
Two Bears said:
Sorry, for the massive quote, but I didn't want you to think I was cherry picking. The Stormcloak uprising is an excellent point relating to that which I was trying to make. Nation states don't use subterfuge when direct conflict is an option, as full war is usually faster and more effective at achieving those ends.

The Franco Prussian War is a good example of this. The Congress of Vienna that ended the Napoleonic Wars set a balance of power that heavily favored France in continental affairs. This was a long-standing thorn in the side of Prussia, which sought German unification through largely political ends of various sorts. So, when France thwarted a candidacy for a Prussian King of Spain, Otto von Bismarck finally was all screw this, we're stronger, let's just have it out.

And that's just the point. States typically adhere to large-scale subterfuge so long as the balance of arms remain outside of their favor. One that balance changes, direct conflict is the preferred approach.
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Still men do that because they live short lives.
700 years is to elves what 7 years is to us.
They can wait.
Subterfuge is used by inteligent states looking to minimize casualties and pave way for their plans.
 
Mookie said:
Still men do that because they live short lives.
700 years is to elves what 7 years is to us.
They can wait.
Subterfuge is used by inteligent states looking to minimize casualties and pave way for their plans.
Click to expand...

I just gave you examples of that not being the case.
 
Two Bears said:
Sorry, for the massive quote, but I didn't want you to think I was cherry picking. The Stormcloak uprising is an excellent point relating to that which I was trying to make. Nation states don't use subterfuge when direct conflict is an option, as full war is usually faster and more effective at achieving those ends.

The Franco Prussian War is a good example of this. The Congress of Vienna that ended the Napoleonic Wars set a balance of power that heavily favored France in continental affairs. This was a long-standing thorn in the side of Prussia, which sought German unification through largely political ends of various sorts. So, when France thwarted a candidacy for a Prussian King of Spain, Otto von Bismarck finally was all screw this, we're stronger, let's just have it out.

And that's just the point. States typically adhere to large-scale subterfuge so long as the balance of arms remain outside of their favor. One that balance changes, direct conflict is the preferred approach.
Click to expand...

Direct conflict isn't always the best option, while it may work or may not. The Thalmor seek to take all through conquest, but they plan centuries ahead. Now their tactics since they have gained power is never show of force, but divide and conquer. The benefit the Thalmor have is they rule with an iron first, they do oppress and force the provinces under them. The Empire doesn't oppress and it's provinces have greater freedom on things, now to the Thalmor using this subterfuge while not as fast, makes it easier in the long view.

Try thinking in hundreds of years. You want to rule all over Tamriel, now you have the option of show of force against a united group. The Legions can fight hard, the Dominion had made the mistakes of underestimating the Empire, just like the Empire underestimated the Thalmor. Now your goal is to rule over the lands with an iron fist, to do so you will need to maintain a large enough force to keep everything in order, so making your enemy fight themselves and divide them is exactly what the Thalmor want.

To them it's like a game of chess, you can either go straight out attack, wait for them to fail or you can make them create their own mistake. Now if they created hatred in one generations life time, that could easily be repaired if they went all out attack. If they create hatred in generation after generation after generation, they will force a rift between the provinces of the Empire that will be near impossible to repair. Cyrodiil and Skyrim have maintained generally close relations for Four Eras, Cyrodiil being the heartland of the Empire, Skyrim being the hammer of the Empire. Together united, Cyrodiil and Skyrim pose the greatest threat to Elven rule. Those two provinces conquered Tamriel together. They fought the Elves together in the First Era and again against the Aldmeri Dominion during the Tiber Wars.

If you cause a rift between Cyrodiil and Skyrim, the Empire will be greatly harmed. Nords hold onto grudges like a Swiss Banker, they hate for a very long time, after Four Eras, they still hate the elves.

The problem with show of force again, is they risk uniting Tamriel against them. The Thalmor aren't well liked within their own provinces. Many would jump at the occasion to over throw them given the chance. Now if they attack in force once more, the risk of uniting all the provinces will scale very high. Their attack united the Crowns and Forebears in Hammerfell, that was a feat.
 
My first playthrough, i went with imperials because *they* were not entirely rude and dismissive of me, as the stormcloaks were. Second playthrough I went with imperials because I was playing a "lawful good" high elf.

I should also mention that- though you may or may not have this problem- I ended up somehow making the stormcloaks really hate me in my first playthrough (hey, whats a stolen horse or slaughtered camp or two? I can't *reeeaally* be blamed for that... >.> ) But the second time through I managed to keep it more level and just went with imperials for roleplaying reasons.
 
Ryvir said:
My first playthrough, i went with imperials because *they* were not entirely rude and dismissive of me, as the stormcloaks were. Second playthrough I went with imperials because I was playing a "lawful good" high elf.

I should also mention that- though you may or may not have this problem- I ended up somehow making the stormcloaks really hate me in my first playthrough (hey, whats a stolen horse or slaughtered camp or two? I can't *reeeaally* be blamed for that... >.> ) But the second time through I managed to keep it more level and just went with imperials for roleplaying reasons.
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I find the Legion is good for whatever race you are, since it has the diversity. There is a Breton Legate, Dunmer Legate, Altmer Legate, couple of Nord Legates and a couple of Imperial Legates. Imperial and Nord Legionnaires, I also came across a Redguard Quartermaster.
 
Copyofcent3copie.jpg
I WANTS YOU FOR LEGION​
​
No matter what race, caste or creed​
WE RECRUIT ANYONE (Given that you swear loyalty)​
​
KILL THE STORMCLOAKS! ALL HAIL THE EMPIRE​
 
"Here in my temple. Here in my shrine. That you have forgotten. Here do you toil. That you might remember. Here you reclaim. What faithless minds have stolen. Far from yourself. I grow ever nearer to you. Your eyes once were blinded. Now through me do you see. Your hands once were idle. Now through them do I speak. And when the world shall listen. And when the World shall see. And when the world remembers. That world will cease to be."


It's much easier to just talk about these issues, instead of rating wars. This thread has seen enough of those, and they don't end quickly.

I believe Mookie was talking about the other thread, where he was given a bad manners.
 
The war in Skyrim is a lot like the American Revolution. The Imperials are the British and The Stormcloaks are the Americans. The Imperials are trying to take over Skyrim and make it their own. The Stormcloaks want the Imperials out of Skyrim so they can be free and independent of Imperial rule. It's just like what happened during the American Revolution. The British wanted to take control of America and the Americans wanted to be free and independent of British rule. I chose the Stormcloaks because Skyrim should be free of Imperial rule. That and the Imperials tried to execute my character even though he wasn't on their damn list. LONG LIVE THE STORMCLOAKS!!!.
 
dwright71 said:
The war in Skyrim is a lot like the American Revolution. The Imperials are the British and The Stormcloaks are the Americans. The Imperials are trying to take over Skyrim and make it their own. The Stormcloaks want the Imperials out of Skyrim so they can be free and independent of Imperial rule. It's just like what happened during the American Revolution. The British wanted to take control of America and the Americans wanted to be free and independent of British rule. I chose the Stormcloaks because Skyrim should be free of Imperial rule. That and the Imperials tried to execute my character even though he wasn't on their damn list. LONG LIVE THE STORMCLOAKS!!!.
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*groan* no.....no it's not like the American revolution, not at all. For one thing the empire is not trying to take over the empire. Skyrim IS the empire(along with highrock and cyriodil) it's been part of the empire as long as cyriodil has been. In the American revolution the majority of the American's sided with the revolutionary's. Where as in skyrim the majority of nords side with the empire. Finally, if you remember it was a REDGUARD who ordered you'r execution, not an imperial.
If you want to make an accurate comparison to the civil war go read up on the Irish civil war 1922-1923. Read that and tell me it's not a better comparison.
 
Okay, the Skyrim Civil war is nothing like the American Revolution, if memory serves me correctly the revolution had to do with America not being represented within British parliament, they also tried many peaceful solutions with the British Empire.

The 'Imperials' are not taking over Skyrim, they aren't invading. If Cyrodiil truly wanted to take over Skyrim, they would send a few Legions from Cyrodiil and High Rock, not locally recruited Auxiliary units in Skyrim. 70% of the Legionnaires are Nords, locally recruited from Skyrim.

Skyrim is also represented within the Empire's politics, through their High King and members of the Elder Council who represent Skyrim. Ulfric did not try for peaceful solutions to become independent, he killed the High King who was actually very interested in the idea of being independent. Ulfric fled back to Windhelm and declared war on the western Holds of Skyrim. He did not go to war with the Imperials, he's not dumb enough to mess with Cyrodiil, which he mentions that he can't afford an all out war with the Empire or upsetting Cyrodiil. Many Nords call Ulfric traitor and murderer. The Imperial Legion is made up of all races, not just Imperials.

Your execution in the beginning is because you were mistaken for a Stormcloak, being caught with Ulfric and his personal bodyguards. Which is why you were sentenced to death, you were mistaken for being an accessory to High Treason, which the only punishment is death. If you watch in the opening scenes, you'll hear Lokir pleading with the Stormcloaks to tell the Legionnaires that you and him are not with them. They only want the Stormcloaks. The Imperial Captain, ordered your death with the rest of them because you were mistaken for being one of them. Your name not being on the list can be one of several reasons, perhaps you were overlooked.

The Stormcloaks are fighting against many Nords, you're not sacking Imperial Cities when you join the Stormcloaks. You're killing Nords, Nord Hold Guards of two cities and overthrowing local Nordic rulers. There are no Imperial rulers in Skyrim, you also attack a neutral Nordic city because they didn't want to get involved.

Ulfric Stormcloak and his Militia consider anyone not with them to be against them, Whiterun was on no one's side, it was attacked because it didn't get involved.

Galmar: "If he's not with us, he's against us."
Ulfric: "He knows that. They all know that."

The Civil war is because Ulfric wants the Throne of Skyrim, if he cared about independence and his people first, he would of simply asked the High King to declare Skyrim's independence, which he would need the backing of the Jarls. Ulfric returned to solitude requesting an audience with the High King, he was allowed in because the entire court thought he was going to ask Torygg to make Skyrim independent. It didn't go down that way, he challenged the High King and the High King accepted because it is Nordic tradition. It is mentioned Torygg had some martial training but that mattered little because Ulfric used the Thu'um straight away. Little unfair, no?
 
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