Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Rimfaxe96]

Take out Skyrim and you've cut off Cyrodiil from Legions in High Rock, dividing the Empire. It would follow their strategy since gaining power. Divide and conquer, picking away at the Empire one province at a time. Summerset Isles, Valenwood, Elsweyr and now Hammerfell.

Maybe, but like Dagmar posted above, getting to Skyrim isn't quite the easiest way.
But with Cyrodiil weakened like never before, they'd be letting go quite an opportunity for them. However, I guess as long as we don't have any real information other than that the Great War was pretty bloody and both sides took great damage, we could discuss tactic over tactic...

Maybe that'd be a topic for its own thread.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Take out Skyrim and you've cut off Cyrodiil from Legions in High Rock, dividing the Empire. It would follow their strategy since gaining power. Divide and conquer, picking away at the Empire one province at a time. Summerset Isles, Valenwood, Elsweyr and now Hammerfell.

Maybe, but like Dagmar posted above, getting to Skyrim isn't quite the easiest way.
But with Cyrodiil weakened like never before, they'd be letting go quite an opportunity for them. However, I guess as long as we don't have any real information other than that the Great War was pretty bloody and both sides took great damage, we could discuss tactic over tactic...

Maybe that'd be a topic for its own thread.

Cyrodiil is now like a fortress. Not weakened like never before, the Legions are all stationed along the Aldmeri Dominion's border. Cyrodiil has spent the last thirty odd years rebuilding and regaining strength, nearly the entire Imperial army is located within Cyrodiil. The Empire is more than likely weakest in High Rock and Skyrim, with the Legions in Skyrim struggling to put down the rebellion, being forced to recruit locally. All the strength of the Empire is now within Cyrodiil preparing for war. Attacking prepared Imperial Legions will not be an easy feat, the Dominion already learned the lesson of The Battle of the Red Ring when the Legions were mobilized together, just like they are now.

 

[Ozan]

((Damn, I've been out of the loop a bit. I'll have to stop by today or tomorrow.))

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Cyrodiil is now like a fortress. Not weakened like never before, the Legions are all stationed along the Aldmeri Dominion's border. Cyrodiil has spent the last thirty odd years rebuilding and regaining strength, nearly the entire Imperial army is located within Cyrodiil. The Empire is more than likely weakest in High Rock and Skyrim, with the Legions in Skyrim struggling to put down the rebellion, being forced to recruit locally. All the strength of the Empire is now within Cyrodiil preparing for war. Attacking prepared Imperial Legions will not be an easy feat, the Dominion already learned the lesson of The Battle of the Red Ring when the Legions were mobilized together, just like they are now.

That's just the point. It won't be an easy task, but should the Dominion be able to defeat them there, right at the Southern Borders of Cyrodiil, they'd equally strike all of their defense down. After all they got Elsweyr and Valenwood at their backs along these Borders as well. And during the "Diplomatic Immunity" quest Jarl Igmund tells you that he heard rumors of Aldmeri troops already gathering along their borders.

I guess they'll go for yet another massive surprise attack. And should they win like this, the only obstacle they've got left would be the road to the Capital of Cyrodiil.

 

[Dagmar]

Take out Skyrim and you've cut off Cyrodiil from Legions in High Rock, dividing the Empire. It would follow their strategy since gaining power. Divide and conquer, picking away at the Empire one province at a time. Summerset Isles, Valenwood, Elsweyr and now Hammerfell.

The Thalmor didn't divide and conquer anyone to take Summerset Isle. They took control by filling a power vacuum after the Oblivion Crisis with propoganda and raw oppression.

Valenwood was taken by supporting a coup, i.e. there were significant internal factions which supported the Aldmeri Dominion in play. Valenwood was also the province in closest proximity to the Summerset Isles making it easy for the Thalmor to provide support for the coup.

Elsweyr dissolved because of a coup which reverted it into two client states of the Aldmeri Dominion. Again there were internal facions which supported the Aldmeri Domion and again, it was in a province along the a border of the Aldmeri Dominion.

Notwithstanding that it failed to acquire territory in Hammerfell, that too fit the pattern of expanding out the borders of the Aldmeri Dominion as a contiguous territory.

Wasting resources on creating a huge naval fleet to engage in a quasi suicidal invasion into a non-contiguous territory would stand in stark contrast to the historical strategy of the Aldmeri Dominion.

Also keep in mind that the Aldmeri Dominion can't afford to commit such a huge invasion force unless it has sufficient reserves to defend its borders as well. On the other hand if it wages war from its borders this is no longer a concern which is another reason why a strategy of invading Skyrim instead of the Empire makes little sense.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Take out Skyrim and you've cut off Cyrodiil from Legions in High Rock, dividing the Empire. It would follow their strategy since gaining power. Divide and conquer, picking away at the Empire one province at a time. Summerset Isles, Valenwood, Elsweyr and now Hammerfell.

The Thalmor didn't divide and conquer anyone to take Summerset Isle. They took control by filling a power vacuum after the Oblivion Crisis with propoganda and raw oppression.

Valenwood was taken by supporting a coup, i.e. there were significant internal factions which supported the Aldmeri Dominion in play. Valenwood was also the province in closest proximity to the Summerset Isles making it easy for the Thalmor to provide support for the coup.

Elsweyr dissolved because of a coup which reverted it into two client states of the Aldmeri Dominion. Again there were internal facions which supported the Aldmeri Domion and again, it was in a province along the a border of the Aldmeri Dominion.

Notwithstanding that it failed to acquire territory in Hammerfell, that too fit the pattern of expanding out the borders of the Aldmeri Dominion as a contiguous territory.

Wasting resources on creating a huge naval fleet to engage in a quasi suicidal invasion into a non-contiguous territory would stand in stark contrast to the historical strategy of the Aldmeri Dominion.

Also keep in mind that the Aldmeri Dominion can't afford to commit such a huge invasion force unless it has sufficient reserves to defend its borders as well. On the other hand if it wages war from its borders this is no longer a concern which is another reason why a strategy of invading Skyrim instead of the Empire makes little sense.

Wrong choice of words divide and conquer. How about picking away at the Empire one province at a time.

I said it was unlikely, but it isn't impossible for them to do a fleet. What I was getting at, is that one can't claim something to be impossible when it is possible, but unlikely to occur.

Though are you sure the Thalmor aren't suicidal? I mean they did watch me kill a Legendary dragon and then attack me with their death squad. I don't know about you, seems a little suicidal.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Though are you sure the Thalmor aren't suicidal? I mean they did watch me kill a Legendary dragon and then attack me with their death squad. I don't know about you, seems a little suicidal.

Lol, well, the part when Estormo shows up after defeating the much more powerful Morokei made me think the same way. I guess these things only make sense for roleplayers; after a fight like that you'd expect the Dragonborn to be exhausted and easier to kill, while the gameplay leaves you without a scratch thanks to potions or healing spells.

On the other hand, the Thalmor can't afford failure in their quest for ruling Tamriel/ruling over mankind, I assume. The Ayleids pretty much died out after their defeat (rumor has it some live in Cyrodiil's woods in tribes, but that was never confirmed), Falmer as well except for at least 1, more survivors have never been confirmed either; unless you count these pointy-eared monstrosities of Falmer, "the Betrayed", as survivors. I'm sure there will be some urgency for pay-back.

 

[Mookie]

I've chosen to go with the Empire because only united will they stand a chance against the Dominion, and while I don't really feel any loyality for th Emperor or Cyrodiil, I feel enough hatred for the Thalmor to join those who might even stand a chance against them, which does not count for the Stormcloaks in my subjective view.
Thu'um or not, Ulfric can't win with a band of axe-swinging warriors against a nation of mages and masters of the arcane. After all he needs to get in reach to use his shout to even get an enemy killed, but he won't come very far if the Dominion's ships get them down. Who knows, if he'd go for Alinor he'd probably get stuck at the southern end of Cyrodiil or at Northern Valenwood, since the only proper "streets" there were made and are therefore well guarded by the Thalmor troops.

Skyrim is just too far away from Alinor to do some damage, and they can't just stay out of the fight anymore. Imperials and Nords are either together in this or the Aldmeri Dominion will have an easy time playing "Divide and Conquer", picking off the other nations one by one.

Though, I didn't like killing the Stormcloaks. Every soldier killed is a possible Legion member killed as well, just in the name of pride. No, it was not right to have Ulfric and his buddies thrown into prison for demanding their payment; open worship of Talos, but that was the Jarl's fault and the Empire had little choice due to the damned Concordat. But seriously? Even high ranking Legion members (Rikke, *cough cough) are clearly Talos worshippers, and that guy from Riverwood also said that before Ulfric everyone still had his little Talos shrine at home because the Thalmor weren't there to control them.
And then Ulfric started this rebellion. Sorry, but for me it appears that Ulfric too is responsible for every Nord who got abducted, tortured and killed by the Thalmor.
Fighting for your right is one thing, but provoking is just unnecessary. v.v

Tamriel was once inhabited solely by elves. A band of men came and defeated them. A band of brutes in loincloths and iron armor took down a continent of magic users. It is about the will to do so, the inspiration, the drive behind an idea. Stormcloaks have that. Empire doesnt. They can loudmouth as much as they want, but after 25 years of peace, they are unable to do anything except line their borders. No massive war preparations, no nothing. Imperial generals can be ordered anywhere like dogs, by the thalmor, imperial legion is used as a police force for thalmor and their oposition. Genocides are commited in Valenwood and other places under Thalmor, empire shuts their mouth. Their founder, and God was outlawed and they keep quiet. The culture is dying out being replaced by subservient behaviour.
And for a milionth time, worshiping in secret is not the same as worshiping freely.

Ancient Nords had a great many Mages, the Nords of old weren't magic fearing. It is only recently has magic been shunned and feared by the local Nords.




No massive war preparations? Deploying nearly the entire Imperial army along the Aldmeri Dominion's border isn't war preparations? The Thalmor do not have large amounts of power as they try let you believe, the Empire and Thalmor are not friends, both sides are preparing for war.




The Nine Gods of the Empire, created by the Empire. Way I see it, they can do whatever they like with their religion.

But the Atmorans didn't conquer all of Tamriel from them, only Skyrim. And the Snow Elves didn't expect their attack, they were caught off guard and since the Atmorans had as little mercy for their Civilian populace like they did when attacking Saarthal. Much more can't be said to this part of history though, since the informations given are small in number.

The problem is that they've allowed the Thalmor to enter Cyrodiil and monitor their every move.
What would be the point of making war preparations if as soon as their smelters would start warming up, the Thalmor would go home and report these movements?
And, above I said that I wasn't loyal to the Emperor for a reason; there's corruption (Erikur from Solitude shows that off quite nicely), there are naive people in high positions who don't really seem to think before starting anything of tactical importance (Jarl Elisif the Fair, also from Solitude) and even General Tullius seems to be growing into a submissive position when the word "Thalmor" is said out loud. Not very surprising though since the Thalmor can treat them like they want, it's almost like Ayleid 2.0.
But no, I don't even want to think about how the next war would pass if Skyrim became independent from the Empire. Without the Nords, the Legions strongest warriors, the Empire would be an easy target for the Dominion. And when the heart of Tamriel is conquered, nothing stands in their way...
The Empire needs proper leadership, that's for sure. But it's still a key asset, even the Thalmor have realised this. Don't think of Skyrim needing the Empire, but the Empire needing Skyrim.

And the worship part is purely a pride's issue, Hadrik Oaken-Heart has also realised this, though far too late in his case. Why do you have to run around in cities praising Talos? Why not meet in forests like the Talos cults do currently all over Skyrim? Talos gets his divine power from the faith people give him, open or not is not of importance.

~Rimfaxe

Empire cant prepare because of the Thalmor.
If it starts a new war will break out and they will get anihilated cause they are unprepared.
If they dont prepare they are at mercy of Thalmor who will attack them and they will loose. See a patern there? Empire is doomed in its curent state, and Skyrim with it.
Men would be better prepared if they follow the way of Hammerfell, its on its own at war. Independent men-kingdoms could help each other. Empire cant. Do you think Thalmor could walk around in Skyrim after Stormcloak victory, spying, or preventing armament?

The Empire can prepare and the Thalmor know the Empire is preparing. The Imperial Legions being on their border would be a good sign the Empire is preparing for war. After nearly Thirty years the Thalmor are causing trouble in Skyrim, diverting the Empire's attention from Dominion lands back onto their own lands.

Tullius: "You realize this is exactly what they wanted."
Galmar: "What who wanted?"
Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."



"But Ulfric and his "Stormcloaks" are deluding themselves. If there's any hope of a long term victory against the Dominion, it's in the Empire. The rebels are only inflaming the tension and weakening the Empire by distracting it from its ultimate aim." - Legate Rikke

"There are those who still call themselves Stormcloaks, who continue to fight us, and bring misery to the people... but they are few in number. The ordinary citizen will be happy to get back to life as normal, to have their families return home. And they should enjoy it while they can... I suspect all of Tamriel will again be called to arms in the not too distant future." - Rikke

There is going to be a war with the Thalmor either way, now after Stormcloak victory it will take a very long time for Skyrim to be rebuilt, Ulfric's entire lifetime may be spent within Skyrim never leaving it. Skyrim could be ready for war, it may take a hundred years to fully rebuild. The Empire can attack the Aldmeri Dominion, they are preparing for war, they can't be surprised attacked since they're staring down the Dominion on the border.


The Empire was unprepared in the last Great War and the Empire won their battle. Neither side won the war, but the Aldmeri Dominion got devastated by the Imperial Legion. Their entire army that was in Cyrodiil was wiped out.

Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. - The Great War

Hammerfell currently has their own treaty with the Thalmor, they also wouldn't of even been able to keep fighting the Dominion had it not been for the Empire. The Empire weakened the Dominion enough for the Redguards to fight them. General Decianus had left the Dominion army in Hammerfell weakened and retreating full speed away from his veteran soldiers he left behind.

They had mages but nords resent magic because they always fought magic users.
Snow elves were magic users. Dunmer were magic users. Altmer were magic users...



Deploying entire army isnt preparing for war. Lining up your border isnt preparing its defending, and porly. They are strained lining up the borders of Cyrodil, what if elves break troug? Entire imperial army would fall in dissaray since they wouldnt be able to defend any more. And they will fall, you dont start wars strained. If empire used those 25 years to actualy prepare for war they would crush stormcloak uprising in a year.
Guess what that tells. They will be on the defence, at mercy of thalmor raids since they cant spare men anywhere except to line the border. Which also means there is no war to return talos worship, there is no end in thalmor judiciar's free reign in sight, nothing. Empire payed with Gods so that emperor could keep the throne. Next war it will be Skyrim itself that will be used as payment to keep his throne and cyrodil.


I will say it again, lining the border isnt preparing to war. Being strained, after 25 years to just line the border and barely sparing some troops isnt preparation.
"You realise...."
They diverted so much resources that they cant defeat half of Skyrim. I wonder how would those diverted asets fare agains thalmor.


It took half the skyrim a few years to prepare for war and beat empire to a standstill. Says enough about Ulfrics competence as a war leader, especialy considering that half of those cities are glorified vilages - winterhold and dawnstar.

 

[Mookie]

Bear of Markarth is a propaganda book on the same level with "Nords arise"
So I wouldnt take that seriously.
As I said once, if he killed everyone who didnt fight for him
A) there were nords in the city after the forsworn took it who couldnt fight for him
B) There are Bretons living in the city, the alchemist, workers etc.

You're ignorant misinformed notions about the lore in this area have already been soundly refuted. If you want to engage in personal fantasy contradicting lore and canon of the game to role play in your game that's you're prerogative but when you attempt to assert it as if it's anything else you only make yourself look misinformed and inept.

It is a book designed and created to attack Ulfrics personality and spread libel. So there is no need to talk about the civil war since what he is acused of doesnt hapen during civil war but before.

This is simply a fabrication of your mind. The book is a historical account of what happened at Markarth written by a scholar irrespective of your inability to recognize that fact. It's lore and canon for the facts to which it speaks because it stands completely uncontradicted by any other content in the Elder Scrolls universe. Lore content isn't arbitrarily rejected just because a player doesn't like what it says. If that absurd basis was applied we would have almost no lore at all for the games. If you want to pretend in your own roleplay that lore documents are false that's your prerogative but in a discussion about what actually is lore from the games such assertions are invalid.

Ulfric killed everyone in Markhart, Nords and Bretons, only those who fought with him remained.

First of all the people remaining in Markarth were not only those that fought with him. The book says anyone that didn't support him was executed not everyone. It's a criterion. It's evident when you read the passage that follows that it was an ongoing process and the reason why the Imperial Legion assented to his demand for open worship of Talos in the city was so that it could reclaim the city from his men and put an end to the mounting death toll each day as he executed more and more people.

Second of all that took place 24 years ago. The city has since largely repopulated.

It is imperial propaganda, created to be a book equivalent of "Nords arrise!" to mantain the discussion as a gray area.

It takes a truly distorted perspective to draw that kind of conclusion. It's not even remotely equivalent to Nords Arise! That book purports on its face to be a Stormcloak recruitment essay, i.e. a self-professed opinion piece, and not a historical accounting.

On top of that the few facts it observes are accurate, i.e. that High King Torygg accepted the terms of the White-Gold Concordat during his brief reign, the Aldmeri Dominion waged war with the races of men, Saarthal was sacked by the Falmer, and Ysgramor and his army of Companions returned to wage war on them and cast them out of Skyrim. Nothing in the book is libelous (for your edification slander is the term for oral defamation, libel is the term for written defamation) either so even if one were to accept your completely incorrect statement that the two books are in anyway similar in nature it still doesn't support the notion that the contents of The Bear of Markarth are in any way untrue.

It isnt a fabrication. A man is a Forsworn suporter. And he is expected to write an objective book about Ulfric who defeated his little friends?

The author isn't a Forsworn supporter. The fact that you would claim to the contrary is only a testament to your poor reading comprehension skills. Arrianus Arius is a scholar so when he begins his study of the Forsworn he does so with an open mind, which means he dispenses with any negative prejudices about them. However by the end of his study and the lore document The "Madmen" of the Reach it's clear that both assert and support many of the negative things reported in prior documents as accurate:

In time, I was able to create trust with many more natives in my search that corroborated the old woman's story. By chance, one of them arranged a meeting between myself and what I thought was an elder member of his village. I was shocked to find that I was led to a camp, filled with the animal skulls, severed heads, and still beating hearts that I had read about from the military reports back in the Imperial City. There, I met Cortoran, a Forsworn, who seemed amused at the prospect of me writing down his story. Which I quote in full below:
"You want to know who the Forsworn are? We are the people who must pillage our own land. Burn our own ground. We are the scourge of the Nords. The axe that falls in the dark. The scream before the gods claim your soul. We are the true sons and daughters of the Reach. The spirits and hags have lived here from the beginning, and they are on our side. Go back. Go back and tell your Empire that we will have our own kingdom again. And on that day, we will be the ones burying your dead in a land that is no longer yours."

There is nothing biased in his writings. You simply don't like aspects of what you read from them and are trying to distort them to support your transparently false claim that they aren't reliable as historical lore documents. Because your attempts are entirely dependent on those distortions you've failed.

IF you read the ongoing passage, yes you come up to that part which in detail describes slaughtering of anyone not suporting Ulfir (how quaint), and then all of a sudden city is full of people 20 years later, not just people who moved in as you claim, but older people, reachmen, suporters of Forsworn, Nepo etc..

This is more reading comprehension failure on your part. That's not the ongoing passage. It's the same passage intiially described in my post. The one that accurately points out that anyone is not the equivalent of everyone. Your lack of mastery over English is severely undermining your ability to understand what's been conveyed by me and the lore documents.

Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates.

This is followed by the passage:

So when a "grateful" Empire accepted Ulfric's victory and sent soldiers to re-establish the rule of law in the Reach, it was no surprise that he would demand to be allowed to worship Talos freely before the Legion could enter. With chaos running through the streets of Markarth and the reports of deaths rising every day, the Empire had no choice but to grant Ulfric and his men their worship.

Taken together this means that the execution of civilians by Ulfric was a gradual and onging process which the Imperial Legion was trying to end. The fact that you and even Drunkenmage didn't understand what the book is saying doesn't change the fact that this is what the book is depicting.

The fact that you would refer to the passage of time that spans well over 20 years as "all of a sudden" is truly LOLable. It's also another straw man, something you're largely dependent upon because you can't address the actual points made that totally undermine your weak arguments. The passage of time and repopulation of the city was an ancillary point. It's not and never was a claim to suport the premise that a every person in the city or even most people in the city who didn't support Ulfric's Nord militia had been executed because I clearly pointed out that Imperial Legion prevented that from happening. That does nothing to discount the fact that Ulfric had a significant number of civilians killed simply because they didn't support his Nord Militia.

I dont feel like repeating everything all over again.

There's no need to repeat falsehoods, distortions, and misinterpreations about the lore over and over again. You can stop anytime you like.

You can quote it as much as you want, its a book designed to tarnish Ulfrics name and justify imperial treachery.

It's no more a book designed to tarnish Ulfric's name than a book that gives an accounting of the genocidal massacres at Srebrenica and Žepa during the Yugoslav Wars is book designed to tarnish Ratko Mladić's name. The fact that the truth casts Ulfric in a negative light and you're incapable of accepting it doesn't make it any less true and it doesn't magically make the author biased when the game refutes that notion and all you can produce are feeble easily refuted distortions of what the lore documents convey.

The game designers dont do something on accident, and it is no accident that author of the bear of markarth also wrote pro-forsworn book. And it is no accident that he justifies any murders the forsworn might have done as just and fair revenge.

One has to be totally delusional or incapable of understanding English to draw the conclusion that Arrianus Arius justifies anything the Forsworn do based on The "Madmen" of the Reach. Anyone who possesses more than a modicum of intelligence and English reading comprehension skills is capable of understanding that the book isn't pro-Forsworn and concludes that there is veracity to some of the negative attributions made regarding the Forsworn in prior texts.

You can ignore the quotes, which are lore and game content, as much as you want but it only further undermines your uninformed position that it isn't canon, and diminishes what little credibility you have (to the extent you have any at all) remaining regarding the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe.

What can I do except repeat when all you peple do is repeat all and same things over and over. Am I to write a new lore?

You effectively already have written your own lore by ignoring what the actual lore states and materially misrepresenting and distorting lore text in failed attempts to support your position. Repeating those errors doesn't make your claims correct anymore than repeated claims that Creationism is science and Evolution isn't real make those claims true.

Taking Bear of markarth as not propaganda also means that Nords arise is lore and truth so here it is:
ords Arise! Throw off the shackles of Imperial oppression. Do not bow to the yoke of a false emperor. Be true to your blood, to your homeland.
The empire tells us we cannot worship holy Talos. How can man set aside a god? How can a true Nord of Skyrim cast aside the god that rose from our own heartland? Mighty Tiber Septim, himself the first emperor, conqueror of all Tamriel, ascended to godhood to sit at the right hand of Akatosh. Tiber Septim, a true son of Skyrim, born in the land of snow and blood, bred to the honor of our people, is now Talos, god of might and honor. The Empire has no right to tell us we cannot worship him.
Our own high king, Torygg, betrayed us to the empire. He traded our god for peace. He agreed to a pact with theThalmor signed by an emperor in a foreign land. Are we to be beholden to such a pact? No! A thousand times no.
Do not let the lessons of history go unheeded. The Aldmeri Dominion and its Thalmor masters made war upon men, just as the elves made war upon Ysgramorand our people in ancient times. Shining Saarthal was burned to the ground, reduced to ruins and rubble in their treacherous assault. But Ysgramor and his sons gathered the 500 Companions and made war upon the elves, casting them out of Skyrim. In the Great War fought by our fathers, the elves again betrayed men by attacking us unprovoked. The Dominion and the Thalmor cannot be trusted!
Like Ysgramor, Ulfric Stormcloak is a true hero of Skyrim. His name will ring in Sovngarde for generations to come. Only he had the courage to single out King Torygg and challenge him to trial by arms. Ulfric's thu'um, a gift from Talos himself, struck down this traitorous ruler. And by his death we are now free of our Imperial shackles and the Thalmor overlords that darken the Imperial throne.
The Empire has sent its Legions to govern us. They have enlisted our own countrymen to their cause. They have set brother against brother, father against son. They have caused Skyrim to battle itself in their name, for their cause. Do not let them divide us. Do not let them conquer us! Reject the Imperial law that forbids the worship of Talos. Join Ulfric Stormcloak and his cause!

Or will you refute truth of one book on the same level as bear of markarth?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Tamriel was once inhabited solely by elves. A band of men came and defeated them. A band of brutes in loincloths and iron armor took down a continent of magic users. It is about the will to do so, the inspiration, the drive behind an idea. Stormcloaks have that. Empire doesnt. They can loudmouth as much as they want, but after 25 years of peace, they are unable to do anything except line their borders. No massive war preparations, no nothing. Imperial generals can be ordered anywhere like dogs, by the thalmor, imperial legion is used as a police force for thalmor and their oposition. Genocides are commited in Valenwood and other places under Thalmor, empire shuts their mouth. Their founder, and God was outlawed and they keep quiet. The culture is dying out being replaced by subservient behaviour.
And for a milionth time, worshiping in secret is not the same as worshiping freely.

Ancient Nords had a great many Mages, the Nords of old weren't magic fearing. It is only recently has magic been shunned and feared by the local Nords.




No massive war preparations? Deploying nearly the entire Imperial army along the Aldmeri Dominion's border isn't war preparations? The Thalmor do not have large amounts of power as they try let you believe, the Empire and Thalmor are not friends, both sides are preparing for war.




The Nine Gods of the Empire, created by the Empire. Way I see it, they can do whatever they like with their religion.

Empire cant prepare because of the Thalmor.
If it starts a new war will break out and they will get anihilated cause they are unprepared.
If they dont prepare they are at mercy of Thalmor who will attack them and they will loose. See a patern there? Empire is doomed in its curent state, and Skyrim with it.
Men would be better prepared if they follow the way of Hammerfell, its on its own at war. Independent men-kingdoms could help each other. Empire cant. Do you think Thalmor could walk around in Skyrim after Stormcloak victory, spying, or preventing armament?

The Empire can prepare and the Thalmor know the Empire is preparing. The Imperial Legions being on their border would be a good sign the Empire is preparing for war. After nearly Thirty years the Thalmor are causing trouble in Skyrim, diverting the Empire's attention from Dominion lands back onto their own lands.

Tullius: "You realize this is exactly what they wanted."
Galmar: "What who wanted?"
Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."



"But Ulfric and his "Stormcloaks" are deluding themselves. If there's any hope of a long term victory against the Dominion, it's in the Empire. The rebels are only inflaming the tension and weakening the Empire by distracting it from its ultimate aim." - Legate Rikke

"There are those who still call themselves Stormcloaks, who continue to fight us, and bring misery to the people... but they are few in number. The ordinary citizen will be happy to get back to life as normal, to have their families return home. And they should enjoy it while they can... I suspect all of Tamriel will again be called to arms in the not too distant future." - Rikke

There is going to be a war with the Thalmor either way, now after Stormcloak victory it will take a very long time for Skyrim to be rebuilt, Ulfric's entire lifetime may be spent within Skyrim never leaving it. Skyrim could be ready for war, it may take a hundred years to fully rebuild. The Empire can attack the Aldmeri Dominion, they are preparing for war, they can't be surprised attacked since they're staring down the Dominion on the border.


The Empire was unprepared in the last Great War and the Empire won their battle. Neither side won the war, but the Aldmeri Dominion got devastated by the Imperial Legion. Their entire army that was in Cyrodiil was wiped out.

Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. - The Great War

Hammerfell currently has their own treaty with the Thalmor, they also wouldn't of even been able to keep fighting the Dominion had it not been for the Empire. The Empire weakened the Dominion enough for the Redguards to fight them. General Decianus had left the Dominion army in Hammerfell weakened and retreating full speed away from his veteran soldiers he left behind.

They had mages but nords resent magic because they always fought magic users.
Snow elves were magic users. Dunmer were magic users. Altmer were magic users...



Deploying entire army isnt preparing for war. Lining up your border isnt preparing its defending, and porly. They are strained lining up the borders of Cyrodil, what if elves break troug? Entire imperial army would fall in dissaray since they wouldnt be able to defend any more. And they will fall, you dont start wars strained. If empire used those 25 years to actualy prepare for war they would crush stormcloak uprising in a year.
Guess what that tells. They will be on the defence, at mercy of thalmor raids since they cant spare men anywhere except to line the border. Which also means there is no war to return talos worship, there is no end in thalmor judiciar's free reign in sight, nothing. Empire payed with Gods so that emperor could keep the throne. Next war it will be Skyrim itself that will be used as payment to keep his throne and cyrodil.


I will say it again, lining the border isnt preparing to war. Being strained, after 25 years to just line the border and barely sparing some troops isnt preparation.
"You realise...."
They diverted so much resources that they cant defeat half of Skyrim. I wonder how would those diverted asets fare agains thalmor.


It took half the skyrim a few years to prepare for war and beat empire to a standstill. Says enough about Ulfrics competence as a war leader, especialy considering that half of those cities are glorified vilages - winterhold and dawnstar.

They had mages but nords resent magic because they always fought magic users.
Snow elves were magic users. Dunmer were magic users. Altmer were magic users...

The Nords of Ancient times did not resent Magic, many Nords throughout those times were mages. Draugr are ancient Nords, they use magic. Sovngarde's Hall of Valor is full of Mages, it's only since after the Oblivion Crisis, the Great War & The Great Collapse have Nords begun to resent Magic and Magic uses, to the point of fear and hatred to those who practice magic and any institution that teaches Magic, i.e The College of Winterhold.

Deploying entire army isnt preparing for war. Lining up your border isnt preparing its defending, and porly. They are strained lining up the borders of Cyrodil, what if elves break troug? Entire imperial army would fall in dissaray since they wouldnt be able to defend any more. And they will fall, you dont start wars strained. If empire used those 25 years to actualy prepare for war they would crush stormcloak uprising in a year.
Guess what that tells. They will be on the defence, at mercy of thalmor raids since they cant spare men anywhere except to line the border. Which also means there is no war to return talos worship, there is no end in thalmor judiciar's free reign in sight, nothing. Empire payed with Gods so that emperor could keep the throne. Next war it will be Skyrim itself that will be used as payment to keep his throne and cyrodil.

Deploying the entire army isn't preparing for war, lining up your borders isn't preparing you say, it's defending but poorly defending? I didn't know the entire Imperial Army were simply out for a stroll to see some sights. Thalmor can't raid the Empire if the Legions are on their border?

The Stormcloak rebellion was nearly crushed, I do believe the opening scene had Ulfric bound and gagged standing in line for execution.

"A masterstroke by General Tullius! He's only been in charge here for a few months, but he's turned things around for the Empire. We've been trying to catch Ulfric since the war started, but he always seemed to slip through our fingers... like he knew we were coming. This time, the General turned the tables on him. Ulfric rode right into our ambush with only a few bodyguards. He surrendered pretty meekly, too. So much for his death-or-glory reputation."

The Legion is also at a disadvantage, because the Thalmor are aiding the Stormcloaks. They're helping keep Ulfric alive and providing indirect aid to the Stormcloaks. Thalmor Justiciars do not have free reign to do as they please, Markarth is a good example where the Thalmor are denied to arrest someone because they have no proof, the Thalmor asks you to help him. Also an Imperial victory harms the position of the Thalmor in Skyrim.

The problems with the Thalmor only started because of Ulfric Stormcloak. How come there weren't issues with them before the rise of the "True Sons and Daughters of Skyrim" Ulfric Stormcloak is their asset, he's doing what the Thalmor want, weakening the Empire.

I will say it again, lining the border isnt preparing to war. Being strained, after 25 years to just line the border and barely sparing some troops isnt preparation.
"You realise...."
They diverted so much resources that they cant defeat half of Skyrim. I wonder how would those diverted asets fare agains thalmor.


It took half the skyrim a few years to prepare for war and beat empire to a standstill. Says enough about Ulfrics competence as a war leader, especialy considering that half of those cities are glorified vilages - winterhold and dawnstar.

Ulfric's competence as a war leader? He was captured by Tullius. Tullius also just lost an entire garrison to Alduin in the opening scene. Not to mention Ulfric himself is being aided by the Thalmor.

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

You should be thanking the Thalmor for their support in your fight.

 

[Mookie]

Ancient Nords had a great many Mages, the Nords of old weren't magic fearing. It is only recently has magic been shunned and feared by the local Nords.



No massive war preparations? Deploying nearly the entire Imperial army along the Aldmeri Dominion's border isn't war preparations? The Thalmor do not have large amounts of power as they try let you believe, the Empire and Thalmor are not friends, both sides are preparing for war.




The Nine Gods of the Empire, created by the Empire. Way I see it, they can do whatever they like with their religion.

The Empire can prepare and the Thalmor know the Empire is preparing. The Imperial Legions being on their border would be a good sign the Empire is preparing for war. After nearly Thirty years the Thalmor are causing trouble in Skyrim, diverting the Empire's attention from Dominion lands back onto their own lands.

Tullius: "You realize this is exactly what they wanted."
Galmar: "What who wanted?"
Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."



"But Ulfric and his "Stormcloaks" are deluding themselves. If there's any hope of a long term victory against the Dominion, it's in the Empire. The rebels are only inflaming the tension and weakening the Empire by distracting it from its ultimate aim." - Legate Rikke

"There are those who still call themselves Stormcloaks, who continue to fight us, and bring misery to the people... but they are few in number. The ordinary citizen will be happy to get back to life as normal, to have their families return home. And they should enjoy it while they can... I suspect all of Tamriel will again be called to arms in the not too distant future." - Rikke

There is going to be a war with the Thalmor either way, now after Stormcloak victory it will take a very long time for Skyrim to be rebuilt, Ulfric's entire lifetime may be spent within Skyrim never leaving it. Skyrim could be ready for war, it may take a hundred years to fully rebuild. The Empire can attack the Aldmeri Dominion, they are preparing for war, they can't be surprised attacked since they're staring down the Dominion on the border.


The Empire was unprepared in the last Great War and the Empire won their battle. Neither side won the war, but the Aldmeri Dominion got devastated by the Imperial Legion. Their entire army that was in Cyrodiil was wiped out.

Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. - The Great War

Hammerfell currently has their own treaty with the Thalmor, they also wouldn't of even been able to keep fighting the Dominion had it not been for the Empire. The Empire weakened the Dominion enough for the Redguards to fight them. General Decianus had left the Dominion army in Hammerfell weakened and retreating full speed away from his veteran soldiers he left behind.

They had mages but nords resent magic because they always fought magic users.
Snow elves were magic users. Dunmer were magic users. Altmer were magic users...



Deploying entire army isnt preparing for war. Lining up your border isnt preparing its defending, and porly. They are strained lining up the borders of Cyrodil, what if elves break troug? Entire imperial army would fall in dissaray since they wouldnt be able to defend any more. And they will fall, you dont start wars strained. If empire used those 25 years to actualy prepare for war they would crush stormcloak uprising in a year.
Guess what that tells. They will be on the defence, at mercy of thalmor raids since they cant spare men anywhere except to line the border. Which also means there is no war to return talos worship, there is no end in thalmor judiciar's free reign in sight, nothing. Empire payed with Gods so that emperor could keep the throne. Next war it will be Skyrim itself that will be used as payment to keep his throne and cyrodil.


I will say it again, lining the border isnt preparing to war. Being strained, after 25 years to just line the border and barely sparing some troops isnt preparation.
"You realise...."
They diverted so much resources that they cant defeat half of Skyrim. I wonder how would those diverted asets fare agains thalmor.


It took half the skyrim a few years to prepare for war and beat empire to a standstill. Says enough about Ulfrics competence as a war leader, especialy considering that half of those cities are glorified vilages - winterhold and dawnstar.

They had mages but nords resent magic because they always fought magic users.
Snow elves were magic users. Dunmer were magic users. Altmer were magic users...

The Nords of Ancient times did not resent Magic, many Nords throughout those times were mages. Draugr are ancient Nords, they use magic. Sovngarde's Hall of Valor is full of Mages, it's only since after the Oblivion Crisis, the Great War & The Great Collapse have Nords begun to resent Magic and Magic uses, to the point of fear and hatred to those who practice magic and any institution that teaches Magic, i.e The College of Winterhold.

Deploying entire army isnt preparing for war. Lining up your border isnt preparing its defending, and porly. They are strained lining up the borders of Cyrodil, what if elves break troug? Entire imperial army would fall in dissaray since they wouldnt be able to defend any more. And they will fall, you dont start wars strained. If empire used those 25 years to actualy prepare for war they would crush stormcloak uprising in a year.
Guess what that tells. They will be on the defence, at mercy of thalmor raids since they cant spare men anywhere except to line the border. Which also means there is no war to return talos worship, there is no end in thalmor judiciar's free reign in sight, nothing. Empire payed with Gods so that emperor could keep the throne. Next war it will be Skyrim itself that will be used as payment to keep his throne and cyrodil.

Deploying the entire army isn't preparing for war, lining up your borders isn't preparing you say, it's defending but poorly defending? I didn't know the entire Imperial Army were simply out for a stroll to see some sights. Thalmor can't raid the Empire if the Legions are on their border?

The Stormcloak rebellion was nearly crushed, I do believe the opening scene had Ulfric bound and gagged standing in line for execution.

"A masterstroke by General Tullius! He's only been in charge here for a few months, but he's turned things around for the Empire. We've been trying to catch Ulfric since the war started, but he always seemed to slip through our fingers... like he knew we were coming. This time, the General turned the tables on him. Ulfric rode right into our ambush with only a few bodyguards. He surrendered pretty meekly, too. So much for his death-or-glory reputation."

The Legion is also at a disadvantage, because the Thalmor are aiding the Stormcloaks. They're helping keep Ulfric alive and providing indirect aid to the Stormcloaks. Thalmor Justiciars do not have free reign to do as they please, Markarth is a good example where the Thalmor are denied to arrest someone because they have no proof, the Thalmor asks you to help him. Also an Imperial victory harms the position of the Thalmor in Skyrim.

The problems with the Thalmor only started because of Ulfric Stormcloak. How come there weren't issues with them before the rise of the "True Sons and Daughters of Skyrim" Ulfric Stormcloak is their asset, he's doing what the Thalmor want, weakening the Empire.

I will say it again, lining the border isnt preparing to war. Being strained, after 25 years to just line the border and barely sparing some troops isnt preparation.
"You realise...."
They diverted so much resources that they cant defeat half of Skyrim. I wonder how would those diverted asets fare agains thalmor.


It took half the skyrim a few years to prepare for war and beat empire to a standstill. Says enough about Ulfrics competence as a war leader, especialy considering that half of those cities are glorified vilages - winterhold and dawnstar.

Ulfric's competence as a war leader? He was captured by Tullius. Tullius also just lost an entire garrison to Alduin in the opening scene. Not to mention Ulfric himself is being aided by the Thalmor.

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

You should be thanking the Thalmor for their support in your fight.

I was speaking about modern day nords. Elves, Oblivion crisis, great colapse etc.. doesn make them love it.


Well Bosnia can deploy its entire army on the borders of Croatia or Serbia, sounds mighty doesnt it, saying there is an entire army lining the border
Well there is only 10 000 men in that army -_-
Same with imperial army. They have just enough men to line the borders and barelly anything to spare in Skyrim.


"Deploying the entire army isn't preparing for war, lining up your borders isn't preparing you say, it's defending but poorly defending? I didn't know the entire Imperial Army were simply out for a stroll to see some sights. Thalmor can't raid the Empire if the Legions are on their border?"

Lining up isnt the war they promised it isnt preparing or anything. Just defending, meaning after 25 years there are still no plans to take fight to the thalmor, just empty talk.
With Legions lined on the border they cant move from those borders in case of war. There is no way to attack. Nor hope of leaving. They can go anywhere and raid, and if empire is to do anything it will weaken their front.



"Ulfric's competence as a war leader? He was captured by Tullius. Tullius also just lost an entire garrison to Alduin in the opening scene. Not to mention Ulfric himself is being aided by the Thalmor."


Yes, ulfric competence. He captured Ulfric and turned the tables by Espionage warfare. He captured no forts, no cities no holds, all he did is pay the bribe and capture Ulfric on the road. And you call Ulfric a murdered for a duel challenge, what do you call Tulius then?

He lost the garison but the city is destroyed, so no one is garisoning it after that either, meaning the front wasnt damaged since no one weakened other forts to send men to garison Helgen.


The war in undeecisive fashion is an asset to the Thalmor. That is all that documents say. They dont want Stormcloak victory. Just war to continue and will aid underdog to keep the war going, wether it is the Legion they are suporting or Ulfric.

 

[Ozan]

((Good lord, responses are getting too damn long. Here is a direct copy and paste from uesp lore:Wars page under Hammerfell resistance.

" Hammerfell's Resistance
4E 175
- 4E 180
[62]

Hammerfell refused to accept the terms of the White-Gold Concordat and, having been renounced as an Imperial province by Titus II, continues to fight against the Aldmeri Dominion alone. After five years, the war ends in a stalemate with the signing of the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai
. The Aldmeri Dominion withdraws from Hammerfell entirely. Hammerfell remains bitter with the Empire for abandoning it."

I'll still poke at this. Forever.))

 

[Dagmar]

Taking Bear of markarth as not propaganda also means that Nords arise is lore and truth so here it is:

It's lore. It is not truth. All you've show by claiming so is a deficit in understanding the difference between an expression of fact and an expression of pure opinion which doesn't even attempt to assert that there is anything factual in it. I'd say it's also selective memory on your part except that this was also addressed and soundly rebutted in the very posts you quoted but completely ignored so it's nothing more than an epic failure on your part.

It is imperial propaganda, created to be a book equivalent of "Nords arrise!" to mantain the discussion as a gray area.

It takes a truly distorted perspective to draw that kind of conclusion. It's not even remotely equivalent to Nords Arise! That book purports on its face to be a Stormcloak recruitment essay, i.e. a self-professed opinion piece, and not a historical accounting.

On top of that the few facts it observes are accurate, i.e. that High King Torygg accepted the terms of the White-Gold Concordat during his brief reign, the Aldmeri Dominion waged war with the races of men, Saarthal was sacked by the Falmer, and Ysgramor and his army of Companions returned to wage war on them and cast them out of Skyrim. Nothing in the book is libelous (for your edification slander is the term for oral defamation, libel is the term for written defamation) either so even if one were to accept your completely incorrect statement that the two books are in anyway similar in nature it still doesn't support the notion that the contents of The Bear of Markarth are in any way untrue.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I was speaking about modern day nords. Elves, Oblivion crisis, great colapse etc.. doesn make them love it.


Well Bosnia can deploy its entire army on the borders of Croatia or Serbia, sounds mighty doesnt it, saying there is an entire army lining the border
Well there is only 10 000 men in that army -_-
Same with imperial army. They have just enough men to line the borders and barelly anything to spare in Skyrim.


"Deploying the entire army isn't preparing for war, lining up your borders isn't preparing you say, it's defending but poorly defending? I didn't know the entire Imperial Army were simply out for a stroll to see some sights. Thalmor can't raid the Empire if the Legions are on their border?"

Lining up isnt the war they promised it isnt preparing or anything. Just defending, meaning after 25 years there are still no plans to take fight to the thalmor, just empty talk.
With Legions lined on the border they cant move from those borders in case of war. There is no way to attack. Nor hope of leaving. They can go anywhere and raid, and if empire is to do anything it will weaken their front.



"Ulfric's competence as a war leader? He was captured by Tullius. Tullius also just lost an entire garrison to Alduin in the opening scene. Not to mention Ulfric himself is being aided by the Thalmor."


Yes, ulfric competence. He captured Ulfric and turned the tables by Espionage warfare. He captured no forts, no cities no holds, all he did is pay the bribe and capture Ulfric on the road. And you call Ulfric a murdered for a duel challenge, what do you call Tulius then?

He lost the garison but the city is destroyed, so no one is garisoning it after that either, meaning the front wasnt damaged since no one weakened other forts to send men to garison Helgen.


The war in undeecisive fashion is an asset to the Thalmor. That is all that documents say. They dont want Stormcloak victory. Just war to continue and will aid underdog to keep the war going, wether it is the Legion they are suporting or Ulfric.

Well Bosnia can deploy its entire army on the borders of Croatia or Serbia, sounds mighty doesnt it, saying there is an entire army lining the border
Well there is only 10 000 men in that army -_-
Same with imperial army. They have just enough men to line the borders and barelly anything to spare in Skyrim.

The Legions are busy staring down the Aldmeri Dominion, the Legions stationed on their borders keeps the Dominion contained for the time being. As many Legion soldiers remind you "The Empire is the only thing keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim."

Lining up isnt the war they promised it isnt preparing or anything. Just defending, meaning after 25 years there are still no plans to take fight to the thalmor, just empty talk.
With Legions lined on the border they cant move from those borders in case of war. There is no way to attack. Nor hope of leaving. They can go anywhere and raid, and if empire is to do anything it will weaken their front.

The Empire never promised anything, they are preparing for war and it takes longer than twenty five years to prepare for the type of war it would take to end the Aldmeri Dominion. Also don't give me the "Hitler did this with Germany in this amount of time.." Tamriel doesn't have mass production factories, everything is made by hand, armor, weapons, equipment.

The Legions can't move from the borders in case of war... No way to attack or leaving, unable to go anywhere? Have you seen a map of Tamriel?

As you can see the Aldmeri Dominion is the provinces of Summerset Isles, Valenwood and Elsweyr. So if the Legions are stationed on Dominions border, you're telling me they can't fight there? Where is the war going to be if not on the border. The "front" is where the fighting will be, I don't know what you're trying to get at. Because what I got from what you're saying; The Empire can't fight because they have their army where the fighting will occur? If the Legions were no where near the Aldmeri Dominion would that somehow make sense in your mind? Debating tactics is one thing, common sense is another. I'm fairly certain common sense would say "Where there will be fighting, placing your soldiers there would be smart."

Should the Legions be on the Morrowind border instead? Send the Aldmeri Dominion a post card "Bet you didn't expect us to have our army no where near you, come at me. My tactics rule"

Yes, ulfric competence. He captured Ulfric and turned the tables by Espionage warfare. He captured no forts, no cities no holds, all he did is pay the bribe and capture Ulfric on the road. And you call Ulfric a murdered for a duel challenge, what do you call Tulius then?

He lost the garison but the city is destroyed, so no one is garisoning it after that either, meaning the front wasnt damaged since no one weakened other forts to send men to garison Helgen.

I have no idea how to even respond to this one, "He lost an entire garrison, but it was okay since they don't need to guard it anymore."?

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Yes, ulfric competence. He captured Ulfric and turned the tables by Espionage warfare. He captured no forts, no cities no holds, all he did is pay the bribe and capture Ulfric on the road. And you call Ulfric a murdered for a duel challenge, what do you call Tulius then?

He lost the garison but the city is destroyed, so no one is garisoning it after that either, meaning the front wasnt damaged since no one weakened other forts to send men to garison Helgen.

I have no idea how to even respond to this one, "He lost an entire garrison, but it was okay since they don't need to guard it anymore."?

Well uhm, I think I'll give it a shot.

I think that when the garison is destroyed, it won't need to be guarded anymore by the Imperials, so the front of... the Stormcloaks (?) was never weakened.
If that's what it means, then that's pretty obvious because Ulfric was captured with only a few bodyguards, not his entire "army".

Don't quote me on that though, still not sure.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Yes, ulfric competence. He captured Ulfric and turned the tables by Espionage warfare. He captured no forts, no cities no holds, all he did is pay the bribe and capture Ulfric on the road. And you call Ulfric a murdered for a duel challenge, what do you call Tulius then?

He lost the garison but the city is destroyed, so no one is garisoning it after that either, meaning the front wasnt damaged since no one weakened other forts to send men to garison Helgen.

I have no idea how to even respond to this one, "He lost an entire garrison, but it was okay since they don't need to guard it anymore."?

Well uhm, I think I'll give it a shot.

I think that when the garison is destroyed, it won't need to be guarded anymore by the Imperials, so the front of... the Stormcloaks (?) was never weakened.
If that's what it means, then that's pretty obvious because Ulfric was captured with only a few bodyguards, not his entire "army".

Don't quote me on that though, still not sure.

Didn't losing Helgan cut the Legion off from good communication with Cyrodiil, losing the pass. I seem to remember Tullius wanting Riften in Season Unending because it would threaten Ulfric's southern flank and solidify communications with Cyrodiil. Though losing an entire garrison is still going to set them back, in terms of man power.

Helgan appeared to be the main Imperial garrison, judging by all the banners and that it was a fortified town, "Imperial walls and towers" as Ralof puts it. Though that could be due to Reman building forts to ward off any more Akaviri.

I could be wrong about Helgan though, but it did seem like an Imperial stronghold.

 

[Mookie]

Yes, ulfric competence. He captured Ulfric and turned the tables by Espionage warfare. He captured no forts, no cities no holds, all he did is pay the bribe and capture Ulfric on the road. And you call Ulfric a murdered for a duel challenge, what do you call Tulius then?

He lost the garison but the city is destroyed, so no one is garisoning it after that either, meaning the front wasnt damaged since no one weakened other forts to send men to garison Helgen.

I have no idea how to even respond to this one, "He lost an entire garrison, but it was okay since they don't need to guard it anymore."?

Well uhm, I think I'll give it a shot.

I think that when the garison is destroyed, it won't need to be guarded anymore by the Imperials, so the front of... the Stormcloaks (?) was never weakened.
If that's what it means, then that's pretty obvious because Ulfric was captured with only a few bodyguards, not his entire "army".

Don't quote me on that though, still not sure.

Good try only few erors and that is:
I think that when the garison is destroyed, it won't need to be guarded anymore by the Imperials, so the front of the Imperials was never weakened since they didnt have to replace the lost men by taking men from other forts of fighting units. Status quo basicaly.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

Good try only few erors and that is:
I think that when the garison is destroyed, it won't need to be guarded anymore by the Imperials, so the front of the Imperials was never weakened since they didnt have to replace the lost men by taking men from other forts of fighting units. Status quo basicaly.

How you manage to equate the loss of a stronghold and an entire garrison as a good thing is beyond me.

 

[Mookie]

Good try only few erors and that is:
I think that when the garison is destroyed, it won't need to be guarded anymore by the Imperials, so the front of the Imperials was never weakened since they didnt have to replace the lost men by taking men from other forts of fighting units. Status quo basicaly.

How you manage to equate the loss of a stronghold and an entire garrison as a good thing is beyond me.

It is not a good thing, its a status quo thing. It would be bad if they had to reinforce garison helgen, and thus weaken other fronts. But Helgen is unusable to either side so there is no need for garison

 

[Mookie]

Good try only few erors and that is:
I think that when the garison is destroyed, it won't need to be guarded anymore by the Imperials, so the front of the Imperials was never weakened since they didnt have to replace the lost men by taking men from other forts of fighting units. Status quo basicaly.

How you manage to equate the loss of a stronghold and an entire garrison as a good thing is beyond me.

It is not a good thing, its a status quo thing. It would be bad if they had to reinforce garison helgen, and thus weaken other fronts. But Helgen is unusable to either side so there is no need for garison