FullmetalHeart20
Well-Known Member
And of course the Dunmer segregation is so much more challenging! I simply believe gaining equality in one city would be a start. Then one could try to change the minds of all nine Jarls in Skyrim.
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Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
- Start date
Dagmar
Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Why? First of all the arguments for the most part aren't being made to support segregation but to justify tolerating it's existence and Ulfric's enforcement of it. Second, this isn't 21st century United States, or even 19th century United States. There are certain conditions and events that are normative in Tamriel that aren't normative in our world so it's not insanity to roleplay a character that acts accordingly and it in no way casts that player's character as some kind of villain.
While it does seem that some players who are posting these kind of defenses appear to be doing so from their real world perspective rather than a separate character with distinct personality and value system that they've created in the game, I always find it baffling when other players take the stance that when it comes to racism, your character can't have a markedly different perspective and be considered an overall good person, but when it comes to more basic ethical tenets that I hope are core to the value systems for most if not all players, it doesn't bother players that their character murders people for money for the Dark Brotherhood, or lies cheats and steals for the Thieves Guild, or serves Daedra just so the character can get phat loot, especially when all of these are overtly unethical acts even by the normative standards of Tamriel while moderate acts of racism are not.
No it isn't because the only way you can fix it is by killing Ulfric, and whatever you may feel or believe about him and the Stormcloaks, they are the only route to the expulsion of the Thalmor from Skyrim in the game. Even by lore standards rather than game standards, as long as the Empire is bound by the White-Gold Concordat, and as long and Skyrim is part of the Empire, the Thalmor Justiciars will remain in Skyrim and the Empire is in all probability going to bound by the treaty for at least another generation and possibly much longer. While the Thalmor Justiciars may have stepped up the intensity of their enforcement of the ban on Talos because of the Stormcloak Rebellion, there's no guarantee that the level of intensity will lessen any time in the near future even if Ulfric is killed. I'm not asserting that it's an impossibly untenable solution to kill him to solve the segregation problem, especially if you believe that an independent Skyrim puts all provinces outside of the Aldmeri Dominion in greater jeopardy, but it's not nearly as simplistic as you're presenting it to be.
FullmetalHeart20
Well-Known Member
First, I meant it's easy because the segregation a relatively simple social/legal matter. Second, the Stormcloacks are not the only route to the Dominions expulsion. They're just chomping at the bit to fight them. The Legons of Cyrodiil are wetting themselves over the idea of fighting me right now. You can either view that as milk drinker weakness, or a sign of the threat the Dominion is. It's better to wait a century for a chance then a hopeless fight right now. Unless anyone can offer concrete information on how the Stormcloacks can beat the Dominion, please stop.
Dagmar
Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
They are the only route to expulsion of the Thalmor from Skyrim for the foreseeable future, i.e. decades. The Legions of Cyrodiil are not excited about fighting any invading force let alone launching an offensive. As recently as a dozen years ago they could't even maintain basic order in many parts of Cyrodiil. You can try and impart whatever suicidal self-destructive ambitions you want upon the Imperial Legion but they're simply not there.
No one has to offer you any such thing. There's a big difference between driving the Thalmor Justiciars out of Skyrim and defeating the Dominion. The latter isn't even remotely necessary to accomplish the former. Skyrim won't be in any danger of invasion from the Aldmeri Dominion any time in the near future if it becomes independent as a result of the Stormcloak rebellion. I and a few others have pointed out why this is so, but the bottom line is that there's no feasible way for the Dominion to move an invasion force into Skyrim by land without first conquering territory in either Hammerfell or Cyrodiil and none at all to do so by sea.
FullmetalHeart20
Well-Known Member
Skyrim would be the most prominent Talos worshiping human nation in existence. They'd always be under threat. They could offer a prayer before breakfast, have a private sermon in their heads. The Dominion doesn't want Talos worship. As long as they think they're winning, they're lazy. Lore fact. Humans breed much faster than elves. Who'll recover from the Great War first?
Squirrel_killer-
The blade in the dark and the hand at your throat
Many people claim this, but I yet to see a cited source, and I am yet to see any evidence in my own experience of such information being true.
FullmetalHeart20
Well-Known Member
A report on the first contact between elves and humans showed the Falmer's concer over this. Back in a jiffy!
Squirrel_killer-
The blade in the dark and the hand at your throat
About an hour into the game I'm wandering the woods. This isn't a linear game, you aren't forced to do it in any order so it is unlikely time approximations will be accurate past 15 minutes.
FullmetalHeart20
Well-Known Member
Sorry. I misunderstood, and I meant if you follow him.
Squirrel_killer-
The blade in the dark and the hand at your throat
I haven't seen this report yet. Where is it?
FullmetalHeart20
Well-Known Member
Not sure of it's name. It spoke of the theory that the elves were worried about being overtaken as the reason Saarthal was sacked.
J
Jeremius
Guest
Simple? I wonder where you were reading that, because I believe I read that the looming threat of a Civil War (The thalmor wanted this, so let it happen) The nords of Windhelm, Who are the majority (Lore or in-game) began to get suspicious of the Dunmer, and were xenophobic. Likely it was mainly to prevent any violent problems at first, but now, one can't be too sure if Ulfric even cares about Windhelm at all.
A little Help Dagmar?
Dagmar
Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Threat of what? Certainly not invasion by the Aldmeri Dominion. Cyrodiil, Hammerfell and even High Rock are in far greater danger of that.
Many people are wrong. This theory might have evolved prior to the release of Redguard and the Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition that came with it. The Pocket Guide debunked this theory though:
Pocket Guide to the Empire 1st Edition said:
FullmetalHeart20
Well-Known Member
Pocket Guide to the Empire 1st Edition said:
High elves consider themselves to be the only perfect race. Over hundreds of generations they have bred themselves into a racially pure line, and are now almost identical to one another in appearance. The theory that the High Elves do not reproduce as quickly or as often as humans is false. Rather, and to my horror, they kill nine out of ten babies born to them in their obsession for purity
:-& Well, horrifying as that is, it still means they'll replenish slower then the humans.
High elves consider themselves to be the only perfect race. Over hundreds of generations they have bred themselves into a racially pure line, and are now almost identical to one another in appearance. The theory that the High Elves do not reproduce as quickly or as often as humans is false. Rather, and to my horror, they kill nine out of ten babies born to them in their obsession for purity
:-& Well, horrifying as that is, it still means they'll replenish slower then the humans.
Dagmar
Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Yes, the practical effect is that they may as well be be genetically incapable of reproducing as often as humans if their philosophy of perfection of the race is so deeply ingrained that they're willing to do things that make the Spartans look like rabid pro-lifers but I wanted to make it clear why they reproduce so slowly. It's not that they can't reproduce faster, it's that they won't.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
I bet the ancestors of the ancient High elves are spinning from their graves knowing that their purified bloodline that they worked so hard to prefect is now being mixed of Nord (Breton) and other human races.
The wizard of Markarth is in love with a redguard who happens to be the housecarl for Jarl Igmund.
I bet that pisses the Thalmor off when they see stuffs like this
I like to see the face of Ondolemar during this shot
The wizard of Markarth is in love with a redguard who happens to be the housecarl for Jarl Igmund.
I bet that pisses the Thalmor off when they see stuffs like this
I like to see the face of Ondolemar during this shot
Benthos
Proud Mer
Today's society is very high strung with treating particular races with care in the real world however in the game, it's the exact opposite because this is far before any idea of segregation and equal rights were to exist. I'm glad you brought that up because people still have that barrier that separates them and the world within the game and some folks get all uncomfortable because they can't seem to realize the environment that Bethesda was trying to create and replicate.
123
Active Member
The problem isn't the morality of the segregation, it's the after-effects it's going to have on future alliances and prosperity within the nation. It's been demonstrated that there's a fair number of people in the game who do not hold such racial prejudices, and quite frankly those are the people who should be ruling.
My argument isn't 'segregation is wrong' it's that segregation won't get you anywhere good.
My argument isn't 'segregation is wrong' it's that segregation won't get you anywhere good.
Ritterkreuz
Active Member
Ah good, we're getting back to some basics here. The whole reason I can't bring myself to join the Stormcloaks no matter how hard I try to talk myself into it is this. Ulfric is really his own worst enemy, and should he win, his policies could quite possibly result in Skyrim being an isolated state, the North Korea of Tamriel if you will. Only the Dominion would truly benefit from this. Yes, yes, I know, the report says that neither side winning would be in their interest, but I honestly think that little bit was put in so as not to allow the main plot line to influence the players decision regarding the civil war. Also, as many before me have pointed out, the longer the war goes the more more casualties, the weaker both the Legion and the Stormcloaks will be. In the end, a swift Imperial victory is really the greatest way to defeat the interests of the Thalmor, and the Dominion.