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Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Moris said:
If it was a stalemate, why did the Empire accept terms that were intolerable enough to it to sacrifice so many lives?

If it was a stalemate, the Empire would have been able to dictate some of its own terms as well.

I never said the Dominion could EASILY destroy anything. Only that it was the victor, and was in the position to dictate the terms. The Empire did not get to dictate any of its own. A clear imbalance of power.
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Sometimes the price for peace is high, The empire was weak to begin with, it no longer held all the provinces. It lost morrowind, black marsh, valenwood & elsweyr. Hammerfell was having in fighting and wasn't stable. Only Cyrodiil, Highrock and Skyrim were doing well.

Banning a religion to save lives, a religion that is of a man, a great man people are told. But do they truly know? I mean he was a conqueror. A religion Nords hold dearly, not just nords but all over the empire. Was it worth it? To save lives yes.

If Talos is divine, then he would understand, I mean everyone still had their little shrine, they all still loved Talos.

Does it truly matter if the Empire surrendered? They fought against impossible odds, on the brink of defeat and they won, they showed the Aldmeri that the age of men isn't over yet. That they can stand their ground. They fought then accepted terms for peace, on their choosing. Not at the mere threats of some Aldmeri ambassador with a hundred heads in a cart, there wasn't a balance of power to begin with. The Aldmeri had the advantage with power, but the Empire took the fight and showed those elven bastards that every legion soldier they kill, several aldmeri will fall doing it.

A united empire is still strong, that is why they used Ulfric.
 
DrunkenMage said:
Does it truly matter if the Empire surrendered? They fought against impossible odds, on the brink of defeat and they won, they showed the Aldmeri that the age of men isn't over yet. That they can stand their ground. They fought then accepted terms for peace, on their choosing. Not at the mere threats of some Aldmeri ambassador with a hundred heads in a cart, there wasn't a balance of power to begin with. The Aldmeri had the advantage with power, but the Empire took the fight and showed those elven bastards that every legion soldier they kill, several aldmeri will fall doing it.
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You're saying that the Empire accepted the terms for peace, "on their choosing"?

The Empire was in the position of strength at the end of the war, but chose to outlaw worship of Talos and permit the Thalmor to enforce this ban?

This is the best argument for joining the Stormcloaks I've seen yet.
 
Moris said:
You're saying that the Empire accepted the terms for peace, "on their choosing"?

The Empire was in the position of strength at the end of the war, but chose to outlaw worship of Talos and permit the Thalmor to enforce this ban?

This is the best argument for joining the Stormcloaks I've seen yet.
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They were not in the position of strength, no where near it.
 
DrunkenMage said:
Sometimes the price for peace is high, The empire was weak to begin with, it no longer held all the provinces. It lost morrowind, black marsh, valenwood & elsweyr. Hammerfell was having in fighting and wasn't stable. Only Cyrodiil, Highrock and Skyrim were doing well.

Banning a religion to save lives, a religion that is of a man, a great man people are told. But do they truly know? I mean he was a conqueror. A religion Nords hold dearly, not just nords but all over the empire. Was it worth it? To save lives yes.

If Talos is divine, then he would understand, I mean everyone still had their little shrine, they all still loved Talos.

Does it truly matter if the Empire surrendered? They fought against impossible odds, on the brink of defeat and they won, they showed the Aldmeri that the age of men isn't over yet. That they can stand their ground. They fought then accepted terms for peace, on their choosing. Not at the mere threats of some Aldmeri ambassador with a hundred heads in a cart, there wasn't a balance of power to begin with. The Aldmeri had the advantage with power, but the Empire took the fight and showed those elven bastards that every legion soldier they kill, several aldmeri will fall doing it.

A united empire is still strong, that is why they used Ulfric.
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When the term "united Empire" is used... does this include the Redguard who were sacrificed in Hammerfell? The Argonian who took Morrowind? The Dunmer who've been neglected? The Nord who has been insulted?

To be frank, Khajiit does not think the Thalmor divide this Empire. The Colovian needs no help.
 
Moris said:
But strong enough to "stand their ground" as you said and accept terms of peace "on their choosing"?
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Yeah stand their ground in their little capital, you want a true reason to support stormcloaks?

Lets overview the stormcloaks.

Lets push out the empire, oh no there goes our trade and commerce, oh no we lost all non nord merchants.

We no longer get stuff from the east empire company.

We wrecked two cities.

Every city shall look like windhelm because we're now poor and don't like non nords.

Our Jarls can be challenged anytime, yay for nord politics, we can see some very interesting people ruling after Ulfric dies.

Perhaps we can get those strong orcs to join us...Oh no we can't because "They are an affront to my people"
 
DrunkenMage said:
Yeah stand their ground in their little capital, you want a true reason to support stormcloaks?

Lets overview the stormcloaks.

Lets push out the empire, oh no there goes our trade and commerce, oh no we lost all non nord merchants.

We no longer get stuff from the east empire company.

We wrecked two cities.

Every city shall look like windhelm because we're now poor and don't like non nords.

Our Jarls can be challenged anytime, yay for nord politics, we can see some very interesting people ruling after Ulfric dies.

Perhaps we can get those strong orcs to join us...Oh no we can't because "They are an affront to my people"
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No, no. We're not going there yet. We're still on the Empire surrendering issue. Until that's settled, that's where it stays.
 
Moris said:
No, no. We're not going there yet. We're still on the Empire surrenduring issue. Until that's settled, that's where it stays.
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What issue would that be? Considering lore wise it happened 30 years before the events in skyrim. Why are you stormcloaks bitching 30 years later.

That is like protesting the war in Vietnam 30 years after it ended.
 
Because you claim, as so many Imperials claim, that the Empire is not weak. That its military successes in the Great War prove that.

Stormcloaks claim that its diplomatic loss, its willingness to give in to the Dominion and sacrifice Hammerfell and Talos worship, prove that it is too weak to defend their interests.

The stronger you say the Empire was at the end of the Great War, and the more you play up the military success of Titus Mede, the worse the consequent diplomatic failure appears.
 
Wait! The Empire won? Have you listened to an Aldmeri soldier in Skyrim? Someone didn't give them that memo! Those elven basturds are everywhere...skinning and grinning.

This treaty has been around for 26 years, how long does this Empire need to rebuild its forces?
 
g33k5quadstud said:
Wait! The Empire won? Have you listened to an Aldmeri soldier in Skyrim? Someone didn't give them that memo! Those elven basturds are everywhere...skinning and grinning.

This treaty has been around for 26 years, how long does this Empire need to rebuild its forces?
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Well when a civil war pops up, that has to be handled.

Why now would the Thalmor stir up trouble, because men breed fast, Thalmor think in the long term. The Legion is tied up at the border with the Aldmeri. But you don't fight an external war while you fight an internal one.
 
If skyrim is lost then the Empire will be destroyed. You're talking about wiping out the legion in skyrim, that is a lot of men that would be wasted on the civil war.

The civil war is very very important, but the legions are spread thin and are at the borders staring at the aldmeri. They can't risk weakening that defensive line to send more into Skyrim.

But if you remove skyrim, you have effectively cut off the Empire, there would be no Nord reinforcements, nothing from High Rock since it has been separated.

Ulfric wouldn't make peace, it just isn't who he is. It would leave the heart of the empire, easy to take. It is only one province against three now. Cyrodiil would fall. Then Skyrim later on.

Skyrim needs the Empire, just as much as the Empire needs Skyrim.
 
DrunkenMage said:
If skyrim is lost then the Empire will be destroyed. You're talking about wiping out the legion in skyrim, that is a lot of men that would be wasted on the civil war.

The civil war is very very important, but the legions are spread thin and are at the borders staring at the aldmeri. They can't risk weakening that defensive line to send more into Skyrim.

But if you remove skyrim, you have effectively cut off the Empire, there would be no Nord reinforcements, nothing from High Rock since it has been separated.

Ulfric wouldn't make peace, it just isn't who he is. It would leave the heart of the empire, easy to take. It is only one province against three now. Cyrodiil would fall. Then Skyrim later on.

Skyrim needs the Empire, just as much as the Empire needs Skyrim.
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You're repeating platitudes. But they don't convince.

Why can't a free Skyrim ally with the Empire on equal terms? Why could they not maintain beneficial trade? Why could their soldiers not fight side by side against the Dominion?

Why is it assumed that the Empire must be in control?
 
DrunkenMage said:
If skyrim is lost then the Empire will be destroyed. You're talking about wiping out the legion in skyrim, that is a lot of men that would be wasted on the civil war.

The civil war is very very important, but the legions are spread thin and are at the borders staring at the aldmeri. They can't risk weakening that defensive line to send more into Skyrim.

But if you remove skyrim, you have effectively cut off the Empire, there would be no Nord reinforcements, nothing from High Rock since it has been separated.

Ulfric wouldn't make peace, it just isn't who he is. It would leave the heart of the empire, easy to take. It is only one province against three now. Cyrodiil would fall. Then Skyrim later on.

Skyrim needs the Empire, just as much as the Empire needs Skyrim.
Click to expand...

Khajiit considers this karma. The people sacrifice the Empire because it sacrifices the people.
 
Moris said:
You're repeating platitudes. But they don't convince.

Why can't a free Skyrim ally with the Empire on equal terms? Why could they not maintain beneficial trade? Why could their soldiers not fight side by side against the Dominion?

Why is it assumed that the Empire must be in control?
Click to expand...

Wiping out their legion and killing the General doesn't exactly boast a "So um you wanna trade some items"
 
Must we forget, Ulfric didn't kill Elisif. She's alive and kicking.

You assume he wouldn't just like you assume the Empire is "rebuilding" itself for another war.
 
Skyrim, its silver, its people, its religion, its soldiers are merely bargaining chips to be used by the Empire when its own Legions cannot manage a military victory decisive enough that it can dictate its OWN terms of peace to the Dominion.
 
Moris said:
Nor does killing a Jarl, whose cause is supported by half the population, suggest that the Empire cares anything at all for the people of Skyrim.
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I didn't realise Ulfric cared so greatly for his people.

He must be a true hero, I should join the stormcloaks. Ulfric is a great leader, he wants land instead of peace during peace talks. Such a hero who puts his people first, got to love him.

Only a true man who cares for his people, will only play ball if handed markarth, then will try for another hold.
 
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