Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Raijin]

The Empire's zombification Jarls ass kissing to their rightful rulers of Tamriel, The Thalmor..

Photos belongs to Addai67 from the bioware forums.

Does Skyrim really need Jarls who does an outstanding job of ass kissing the Thalmor ass like this man does?

The future High queen of Skyrim.... the bimbo Jarl of Solitude....

Ulfric knows whats best for Skyrim

Ulfric: "And damn the Moot! We should risk letting those milkdrinkers put Thorryg [sic]'s woman on the throne? She'll hand Skyrim over to the elves on a silver plate."


and one last thing

Ulfric was right Torygg was more interested in entertaining his queen rather than ruling his country. Ulfric did right by killing the traitor of Skyrim.

 

[feliciano182]

Okay, legitimate question here. Sovenguard exists, the faithful go there. That means everything the Dominion does is utterly meaningless. At the end of the day, Talos worshippers are chilling with all the Nord Heroes in a mead hall. So, keeping in mind that the final destination of Dominion prisoners is heaven, why are the Stormcloacks in such a hurry? Just put up with it until your standing military rebuilds. Every time they hear about a Thalmor arrest, just go 'another one for Sovenguard!'.

Unless I misunderstood, it's the nord warriors that go to Sovngarde, not regular nords.

 

[Raijin]

Unless I misunderstood, it's the nord warriors that go to Sovngarde, not regular nords.

What I want to know is where does all of the non- warrior nords goes after they die. Do they go to Oblivion?

 

[Moris]

The Empire didn't surrender, it was a Peace Treaty, to rebuild for the next war.

Hmmm. If it's a matter of lore, then some pages at UESP need to reflect that because they are giving the wrong impression. However, if it's up for debate, then...

To wit: On Galmar's page:

"Despite his efforts during the Great War, things changed when Emperor Titus Mede II surrendered to the Aldmeri Dominion and the worship of Talos was banned in Skyrim, Galmar began to look down on both the Empire and the Thalmor with white-hot hatred."

 

[Moris]

Hmmm. If it's a matter of lore, then some pages at UESP need to reflect that because they are giving the wrong impression. However, if it's up for debate, then...

To wit: On Galmar's page:

"Despite his efforts during the Great War, things changed when Emperor Titus Mede II surrendered to the Aldmeri Dominion and the worship of Talos was banned in Skyrim, Galmar began to look down on both the Empire and the Thalmor with white-hot hatred."

Replying to myself here, rather than adding in an edit.

When you are asked to surrender and given the specific terms under which you are to do so, and then after you fight a war, you agree to those terms anyway...

It's hard to see how that could be called anything but a surrender.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Hmmm. If it's a matter of lore, then some pages at UESP need to reflect that because they are giving the wrong impression. However, if it's up for debate, then...

To wit: On Galmar's page:

"Despite his efforts during the Great War, things changed when Emperor Titus Mede II surrendered to the Aldmeri Dominion and the worship of Talos was banned in Skyrim, Galmar began to look down on both the Empire and the Thalmor with white-hot hatred."

The Empire fought a bloody and desperate war, they did not just surrender, they fought and completely DESTROYED the Aldmeri forces in all of Cyrodiil. They could not continue the war, having to fight forces in Hammerfell, Valenwood, Elsweyr & Summerset Isles.

If they surrendered to the Aldmeri Forces, the Legion would of been disbanded, they wouldn't be prepping for another war. They be under complete Thalmor control, the Emperor would be replaced by the Thalmor and a complete change of flags, if you surrender you hand over everything to the Thalmor, so if they did keep the legion they'd be merged into the Aldmeri Dominion. You'd see Aldmeri Officers and Soldiers instead of Legates and Legionnaires.

They wouldn't be trying to destroy the Empire if they controlled the Empire, that doesn't make sense. If the Emperor surrendered, then there wouldn't be an Empire it would be the Aldmeri Dominion, since if you surrender you hand it over to them.

It would be Stormcloaks vs Aldmeri soldiers.

A cease fire isn't surrendering your forces. That's like saying the Redguards surrendered to the Aldmeri when they formed a treaty.

 

[Jei El]

White-Gold Concordat. Nuff' Said.

Edit: In yo face Drunk!

 

[DrunkenMage]

Gold-White Concordat. Nuff' Said.

White-Gold Concordat.

You seem to be fighting against a treaty that doesn't exist.

 

[Moris]

The Empire fought a bloody and desperate war, they did not just surrender, they fought and completely DESTROYED the Aldmeri forces in all of Cyrodiil. They could not continue the war, having to fight forces in Hammerfell, Valenwood, Elsweyr & Summerset Isles.

If they surrendered to the Aldmeri Forces, the Legion would of been disbanded, they wouldn't be prepping for another war. They be under complete Thalmor control, the Emperor would be replaced by the Thalmor and a complete change of flags, if you surrender you hand over everything to the Thalmor, so if they did keep the legion they'd be merged into the Aldmeri Dominion. You'd see Aldmeri Officers and Soldiers instead of Legates and Legionnaires.

They wouldn't be trying to destroy the Empire if they controlled the Empire, that doesn't make sense. If the Emperor surrendered, then there wouldn't be an Empire it would be the Aldmeri Dominion, since if you surrender you hand it over to them.

It would be Stormcloaks vs Aldmeri soldiers.

A cease fire isn't surrendering your forces. That's like saying the Redguards surrendered to the Aldmeri when they formed a treaty.

Victory = Victors dictate their own terms to the Defeated.
Surrender = Defeated accept terms dictated by the Victors.
Ceasefire = Both sides agree to end hostilities on relatively equal terms.

ETA: Surrender does not have to include all out occupation.

You really feel that the Empire accepted the terms of the WGC because it was on relatively equal terms? Because if that is what you're saying, it makes it much, much, much worse.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Victory = Victors dictate their own terms to the Defeated.
Surrender = Defeated accept terms dictated by the Victors.
Ceasefire = Both sides agree to end hostilities on relatively equal terms.

You really feel that the Empire accepted the terms of the WGC because it was on relatively equal terms? Because if that is what you're saying, it makes it much, much, much worse.

They never enforced the terms.

"We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down." - Alvor

I'm saying that the Empire accepted terms because they couldn't continue fighting. The empire is so bad and evil because they didn't destroy themselves, they fought for every province in the empire, they lost so much. Hammerfell was already occupied and the Legions couldn't go and continue the war for several more years, risking another invasion from the South, they would be able to hold Cyrodiil if they kept all their forces there.

Nords didn't give a crap about the banning of Talos, they ignored it. They all had shrines still. But Ulfric stirred plops up.

 

[Moris]

They never enforced the terms.

"We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down." - Alvor

I'm saying that the Empire accepted terms because they couldn't continue fighting. The empire is so bad and evil because they didn't destroy themselves, they fought for every province in the empire, they lost so much. Hammerfell was already occupied and the Legions couldn't go and continue the war for several more years, risking another invasion from the South, they would be able to hold Cyrodiil if they kept all their forces there.

Nords didn't give a crap about the banning of Talos, they ignored it. They all had shrines still. But Ulfric stirred pl*** up.

That the Thalmor are given free reign in the Empire as a matter of right tells me that those terms are indeed valid and fully and completely enforceable. That the Thalmor didn't bother to take advantage of the rights that had been granted to them until recently isn't relevant at all.

At the moment, I'm not debating WHY the Empire accepted the agreement. Only that it DID.

ETA: And that its acceptance of the agreement constitutes surrender.

---

Cops: Drop your weapon, surrender, and get down on the ground!
Bad guy: No!

<shootout>

Cops: Drop your weapon, and get down on the ground!
Bad guy <drops weapon, gets down on the ground>: Okay. But I'm not surrendering, 'kay?

 

[DrunkenMage]

That the Thalmor are given free reign in the Empire as a matter of right tells me that those terms are indeed valid and fully and completely enforceable. That the Thalmor didn't bother to take advantage of the rights that had been granted to them until recently isn't relevant at all.

At the moment, I'm not debating WHY the Empire accepted the agreement. Only that it DID.

---

Cops: Drop your weapon, surrender, and get down on the ground!
Bad guy: No!

<shootout>

Cops: Drop your weapon, and get down on the ground!
Bad guy <gets down on the ground>: Okay. But I'm not surrendering, 'kay?

That isn't even close to it.

 

[Moris]

That isn't even close to it.

Okay. I'll try again.

Dominion: Look at the heads of your Blades. Sign this agreement!
Empire: No!

<long war in which Empire's cities are sacked, while Dominion's cities remain happily free of Imperial forces>

Dominion: Sign the agreement!
Empire <signs agreement>: But we're not surrendering, 'kay?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Skyrim wouldn't do well under Ulfric's rule. It will just simply revert back to in fighting and power struggles.

He brought back the old ways, the ways where anyone can challenge a Jarl or King and fight them for their position.

Going to see a plops load of Jarls and High Kings over the years.

Just allows bandits to kill a Jarl in single combat and they rule the hold. Until they get killed and so on.

"That's what started this whole war. The Empire couldn't ignore that. Once the jarls start killing each other, we're back to the bad old days"

 

[DrunkenMage]

Okay. I'll try again.

Dominion: Look at the heads of your Blades. Sign this agreement!
Empire: No!

<long war in which Empire's cities are sacked, while Dominion's cities remain happily free of Imperial forces>

Dominion: Sign the agreement!
Empire <signs agreement>: But we're not surrendering, 'kay?

So you think they should of attacked the Aldmeri? in Summerset Isles?

Okay, so they need to sail to Summerset Isles, invade. But also invade valenwood, elsweyr, due to the Aldmeri presence in those locations which were used to invade the Empire.

You have Hammerfell that is mostly occupied.

Good luck with that, not even a single Legion has half of its men.

Your great warriors the Nords, who are some of the finest in the Legion, are battered and nearly wiped out.

You going to invade the Aldmeri with 100 men?

It would take so many years, for the war to end. With what? Where you going to get reinforcements from? Supplies from. All your soldiers are fighting in 4 provinces, better hope the Argonians will be like "Oh hey Cyrodiil is empty of all soldiers, nah we won't take it because they cool"

 

[Moris]

Skyrim wouldn't do well under Ulfric's rule. It will just simply revert back to in fighting and power struggles.

He brought back the old ways, the ways where anyone can challenge a Jarl or King and fight them for their position.

Going to see a pl*** load of Jarls and High Kings over the years.

Just allows bandits to kill a Jarl in single combat and they rule the hold. Until they get killed and so on.

"That's what started this whole war. The Empire couldn't ignore that. Once the jarls start killing each other, we're back to the bad old days"

What does that have to do with the Empire surrendering to the Aldmeri Dominion?

 

[Moris]

So you think they should of attacked the Aldmeri? in Summerset Isles?

Okay, so they need to sail to Summerset Isles, invade. But also invade valenwood, elsweyr, due to the Aldmeri presence in those locations which were used to invade the Empire.

You have Hammerfell that is mostly occupied.

Good luck with that, not even a single Legion has half of its men.

Your great warriors the Nords, who are some of the finest in the Legion, are battered and nearly wiped out.

You going to invade the Aldmeri with 100 men?

I never said they should or shouldn't. Don't make out that I'm saying anything other than what I'm saying, please.

I am merely challenging your assertion that the Empire did not surrender to the Dominion.

 

[Moris]

I never said they should or shouldn't. Don't make out that I'm saying anything other than what I'm saying, please.

I am merely challenging your assertion that the Empire did not surrender to the Dominion.

Moreover, your pointing out that the Empire was far too weak to invade the Dominion the way it had invaded Cyrodiil is hardly evidence in your favor.

If the Empire was too weak to repay the damage done to its own cities, this only adds to my reasons to call its agreeing with the WGC a surrender. A surrender, which is what happens when one side is clearly outmatched.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Moreover, your pointing out that the Empire was far too weak to invade the Dominion the way it had invaded Cyrodiil is hardly evidence in your favor.

If the Empire was too weak to repay the damage done to its own cities, this only adds to my reasons to call its agreeing with the WGC a surrender. A surrender, which is what happens when one side is clearly outmatched.

They could hold Cyrodiil, but not invade. The Aldmeri couldn't invade but could hold their provinces.

If the Aldmeri could destroy the Empire after Red Ring, then they would have, they wouldn't take terms not after having one of their Generals hung from the white-gold tower, they would simply just smash the empire if it was an out matched.

Neither side could invade the other again.


You don't accept peace terms off something you can easily destroy.

And what the Empire did making this peace is good, because the rest of the empire wanted peace.

I don't see what the problem is with the Empire agreeing to a short term peace.

 

[Moris]

They could hold Cyrodiil, but not invade. The Aldmeri couldn't invade but could hold their provinces.

If the Aldmeri could destroy the Empire after Red Ring, then they would have, they wouldn't take terms not after having one of their Generals hung from the white-gold tower, they would simply just smash the empire if it was an out matched.

Neither side could invade the other again.


You don't accept peace terms off something you can easily destroy.

The Dominion DID invade, and did a huge amount of damage. What they couldn't do is OCCUPY completely and without resistance. Big difference.

If it was a stalemate, why did the Empire accept terms that were intolerable enough to it to sacrifice so many lives?

If it was a stalemate, the Empire would have been able to dictate some of its own terms as well.

I never said the Dominion could EASILY destroy anything. Only that it was the victor, and was in the position to dictate the terms. The Empire did not get to dictate any of its own (Everyone agrees that both treaties were almost identical). A clear imbalance of power.