Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[LegateFasendil]

I just told you. Imperial believe Ulfric did the right thing when he surrendered. Stormcloaks think he did the smart thing by surrendering so his men did not die in the woods. Still does not change the fact that Ulfric, when presented with the same option he presented Torygg (to fight and die or not to fight), he chose the latter option, which I consider to be a coward's option.

Surrender is something I'd expect the Imperial politicians to do, not a "man of the people".

Dammit Jeremius :{}

STOP MAKING SENSE!!! XD

It's... too... much truth... to process... all at one time... can't breath... can't stop laughing...

I decided to change my opinion. Ulfric is indeed not a coward, but there are moments where a brave and intelligent man can show cowardice (though these would few and far between, and can be overlooked because he is brave almost all other times).

Don't change. Don't do it for anyone. You are RIGHT. There is nothing to apologize for. Don't be like them now. But you can do what you want. I think you're right. And he is a coward because Ulfric is doing this stuff intentionally, there was no accident, no circumstance, it's how he thinks. He comes at you sideways like a snake. Maybe it's not cowardice, it's malice. We observe it as cowardice but really it's how Ulfric operates.

I see the truth now for what it is and couldn't have done so unless you had been brutally honest. But that's what the Stormcloaks want, just go along with it, they're the victims, the honorable freedom fighters and the Empire can sit and sweat. Crap that. Empire has every right to Skyrim and there is no such thing as a 'True Nord'. No Nord is perfect and Imperial Nords care about Skyrim just as much as Stormcloaks.


LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

 

[Jeremius]

Dammit Jeremius :{}

STOP MAKING SENSE!!! XD

It's... too... much truth... to process... all at one time... can't breath... can't stop laughing...

I decided to change my opinion. Ulfric is indeed not a coward, but there are moments where a brave and intelligent man can show cowardice (though these would few and far between, and can be overlooked because he is brave almost all other times).

Don't change. Don't do it for anyone. You are RIGHT. There is nothing to apologize for. Don't be like them now. But you can do what you want. I think you're right. And he is a coward because Ulfric is doing this stuff intentionally.

I see the truth now for what it is and couldn't have done so unless you had been brutally honest. But that's what the Stormcloaks want, just go along with it, they're the victims, the honorable freedom fighters and the Empire can sit and sweat. Crap that.

I won't go along with it, I heard them out, listened intently, even took the Stormcloaks side in the matter on a couple things. But end of the day they're wrong and Ulfric is a coward and a liar. And anyone would be a fool to die for his cause.


LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

I was actually changing the wording, not the actual opinion. Ulfric is not a coward, as a man. He is a coward in some of the decision he makes however.

 

[LegateFasendil]

I decided to change my opinion. Ulfric is indeed not a coward, but there are moments where a brave and intelligent man can show cowardice (though these would few and far between, and can be overlooked because he is brave almost all other times).

Don't change. Don't do it for anyone. You are RIGHT. There is nothing to apologize for. Don't be like them now. But you can do what you want. I think you're right. And he is a coward because Ulfric is doing this stuff intentionally.

I see the truth now for what it is and couldn't have done so unless you had been brutally honest. But that's what the Stormcloaks want, just go along with it, they're the victims, the honorable freedom fighters and the Empire can sit and sweat. Crap that.

I won't go along with it, I heard them out, listened intently, even took the Stormcloaks side in the matter on a couple things. But end of the day they're wrong and Ulfric is a coward and a liar. And anyone would be a fool to die for his cause.


LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

I was actually changing the wording, not the actual opinion. Ulfric is not a coward, as a man. He is a coward in some of the decision he makes however.

Right. Like he has cowardly ways of doing business. Makes sense.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

I decided to change my opinion. Ulfric is indeed not a coward, but there are moments where a brave and intelligent man can show cowardice (though these would few and far between, and can be overlooked because he is brave almost all other times).

Don't change. Don't do it for anyone. You are RIGHT. There is nothing to apologize for. Don't be like them now. But you can do what you want. I think you're right. And he is a coward because Ulfric is doing this stuff intentionally.

I see the truth now for what it is and couldn't have done so unless you had been brutally honest. But that's what the Stormcloaks want, just go along with it, they're the victims, the honorable freedom fighters and the Empire can sit and sweat. Crap that.

I won't go along with it, I heard them out, listened intently, even took the Stormcloaks side in the matter on a couple things. But end of the day they're wrong and Ulfric is a coward and a liar. And anyone would be a fool to die for his cause.


LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

I was actually changing the wording, not the actual opinion. Ulfric is not a coward, as a man. He is a coward in some of the decision he makes however.

You were attacking him over the wrong act. His surrender in the woods was not cowardly. But many of his other decisions were.

 

[Jeremius]

Don't change. Don't do it for anyone. You are RIGHT. There is nothing to apologize for. Don't be like them now. But you can do what you want. I think you're right. And he is a coward because Ulfric is doing this stuff intentionally.

I see the truth now for what it is and couldn't have done so unless you had been brutally honest. But that's what the Stormcloaks want, just go along with it, they're the victims, the honorable freedom fighters and the Empire can sit and sweat. Crap that.

I won't go along with it, I heard them out, listened intently, even took the Stormcloaks side in the matter on a couple things. But end of the day they're wrong and Ulfric is a coward and a liar. And anyone would be a fool to die for his cause.


LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

I was actually changing the wording, not the actual opinion. Ulfric is not a coward, as a man. He is a coward in some of the decision he makes however.

You were attacking him over the wrong act. His surrender in the woods was not cowardly. But many of his other decisions were.

You have your opinion, I have mine. Mine is simply that Ulfric made what I consider the coward's choice by surrendering, and thus death on his knees, instead of dying like a warrior, which is on his feet in battle.

Not calling you wrong, but I would have considered Torygg a coward for refusing Ulfric's challenge, and I would consider any nord in Ulfric's position a coward if he/she made the same choice as Ulfric. Why? Because I see the act itself as cowardly, no matter the reason of the person whose making the choice.

 

[Vatonage]

You have your opinion, I have mine. Mine is simply that Ulfric made what I consider the coward's choice by surrendering, and thus death on his knees, instead of dying like a warrior, which is on his feet in battle.

Not calling you wrong, but I would have considered Torygg a coward for refusing Ulfric's challenge, and I would consider any nord in Ulfric's position a coward if he/she made the same choice as Ulfric. Why? Because I see the act itself as cowardly, no matter the reason of the person whose making the choice.

Then the whole True Nord debate was pointless.

 

[Jeremius]

You have your opinion, I have mine. Mine is simply that Ulfric made what I consider the coward's choice by surrendering, and thus death on his knees, instead of dying like a warrior, which is on his feet in battle.

Not calling you wrong, but I would have considered Torygg a coward for refusing Ulfric's challenge, and I would consider any nord in Ulfric's position a coward if he/she made the same choice as Ulfric. Why? Because I see the act itself as cowardly, no matter the reason of the person whose making the choice.

Then the whole True Nord debate was pointless.

perhaps it was. All it seems is that people what to attack my opinion because I see things differently.

Like I see Ulfric as a moron for challenging Torygg to a duel, because I see challenging the High King to a duel when the man was willing to listen to you speak more on independence as moronic.

He does redeem himself when he dies in the Imperial side of the war ending. The only way surrender is not cowardly is when it is the absolute only choice left.

 

[Daryl Dixon]

Ulfric surrendering was not cowardly, in fact I think it was braver than if he had kept fighting.

Ralof points out 'All of Skyrim would have seen the truth the' after mentioning how Ulfric would have died without a trial.

He thought he was going to die either way, and this way would have benefitted the war more than if he had died fighting. This way benefits his cause, the other doesn't.

Also, about the racism with the Dunmer, that guy wasn't even a Stormcloak. Like you said.

The imperials don't know who you are and then just decide to have you killed because they don't know what else to do with you, figure no one will miss you. The Stormcloaks, like imperials, accept every race into their army.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Ulfric surrendering was not cowardly, in fact I think it was braver than if he had kept fighting.

Ralof points out 'All of Skyrim would have seen the truth the' after mentioning how Ulfric would have died without a trial.

He thought he was going to die either way, and this way would have benefitted the war more than if he had died fighting. This way benefits his cause, the other doesn't.

Also, about the racism with the Dunmer, that guy wasn't even a Stormcloak. Like you said.

The imperials don't know who you are and then just decide to have you killed because they don't know what else to do with you, figure no one will miss you. The Stormcloaks, like imperials, accept every race into their army.

Ok so if Ulfric cared about Skyrim seeing the truth, why is he denying the Moot from meeting after killing Torygg? Even after Helgen he could allow the Moot and everyone just sit around a kitchen table to air their laundry. Alas, this never happened.

About the Dunmer, there was a former Stormcloak with Rolff. Rolff also happens to be Galmar's brother.

You can say what you want but apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

And Stormcloaks rank and file is almost all Nords, maybe they'll accept you but Galmar isn't happy about it.

 

[LegateFasendil]

You have your opinion, I have mine. Mine is simply that Ulfric made what I consider the coward's choice by surrendering, and thus death on his knees, instead of dying like a warrior, which is on his feet in battle.

Not calling you wrong, but I would have considered Torygg a coward for refusing Ulfric's challenge, and I would consider any nord in Ulfric's position a coward if he/she made the same choice as Ulfric. Why? Because I see the act itself as cowardly, no matter the reason of the person whose making the choice.

Then the whole True Nord debate was pointless.

Yes. There is no such thing as a true Nord. A perfect Nord doesn't exist, although Ulfric uses the phrase "True Nord" as a marketing tactic. To Ulfric a true Nord means x. To Rikke a true Nord means y. etc...

 

[Jeremius]

Ulfric surrendering was not cowardly, in fact I think it was braver than if he had kept fighting.

Ralof points out 'All of Skyrim would have seen the truth the' after mentioning how Ulfric would have died without a trial.

He thought he was going to die either way, and this way would have benefitted the war more than if he had died fighting. This way benefits his cause, the other doesn't.

You are misunderstanding. I stated quite clearly that I think that surrendering, no matter the reason, is an act of cowardice, as it shows that the person who is surrendering refuses to keep fighting, which would take a lot of courage to do if the enemy outnumbers or out-powers you.

It does not matter who it is that surrenders. Surrender in this scenario shows that the person surrendering fears dying in the woods, like an animal. I also consider the Empire to be cowards for the White-Gold Concordant, but I am sure you, DrunkenMage, and other imperial supporters will counter that with the why, saying that without the why, the act means nothing.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Bet they're not cheering anymore, not after the ethnic purges, the executions, assassinations and the 'reeducation' as the Thalmor call it.

Don't bet on that.

They overthrew the rightful Kings and Queens of the Altmer. I remember the revulsion and horror that took hold when word reached me - that this dementia had gripped my homeland. Once so proud and majestic, many of our great race actually embraced this insanity!

--Rising Threat, Vol. IV

Perhaps a few of the Bosmer who were practically "forced" under their rule don't cheer anymore, but the rest?
I guess the Altmer are quite flattered by the thought of being superior to everything in the world, and the Khajiit are everlastingly grateful for having their moons back.

You know, I actually forgot about that. And everyone calls me the lore nut? Pff, I'm starting to think you know more.

I better watch out, there is one who can pwn me.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Ulfric surrendering was not cowardly, in fact I think it was braver than if he had kept fighting.

Ralof points out 'All of Skyrim would have seen the truth the' after mentioning how Ulfric would have died without a trial.

He thought he was going to die either way, and this way would have benefitted the war more than if he had died fighting. This way benefits his cause, the other doesn't.

You are misunderstanding. I stated quite clearly that I think that surrendering, no matter the reason, is an act of cowardice, as it shows that the person who is surrendering refuses to keep fighting, which would take a lot of courage to do if the enemy outnumbers or out-powers you.

It does not matter who it is that surrenders. Surrender in this scenario shows that the person surrendering fears dying in the woods, like an animal. I also consider the Empire to be cowards for the White-Gold Concordant, but I am sure you, DrunkenMage, and other imperial supporters will counter that with the why, saying that without the why, the act means nothing.

Hmmm. This is a tough act to follow. From personal experience, one never truly surrenders, not if it's in your heart to fight. What happens though is you may want to fight back, but you're circumstance dictates you simply cannot do anything except try and stop the battle.

Now, I agree with your sentiment about Torygg, you know, why is it ok for him to go and fight an impossible battle however Ulfric on at least two sep occasions is excused for either being absent or sending his army in his place instead of facing the odds.

I probably shouldn't have said anything because now you seem to wanna shy away from the Empire, for whatever reason.

The thing is though, sometimes you can't fight back and there's nothing you can do except try and convince your enemy to stand down and meet said enemy face to face and try to leave as friends. There's no shame in that I think.

But it's a matter of honor to stand for one thing when it's convenient for you, holding people to impossible odds that you yourself could never meet.

It's complicated. So what can I say? Every day is a new day. There's stuff in Sun Tzu about this as well as in Klingon Proverbs... like "Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory..." for example.

 

[Jeremius]

Ulfric surrendering was not cowardly, in fact I think it was braver than if he had kept fighting.

Ralof points out 'All of Skyrim would have seen the truth the' after mentioning how Ulfric would have died without a trial.

He thought he was going to die either way, and this way would have benefitted the war more than if he had died fighting. This way benefits his cause, the other doesn't.

You are misunderstanding. I stated quite clearly that I think that surrendering, no matter the reason, is an act of cowardice, as it shows that the person who is surrendering refuses to keep fighting, which would take a lot of courage to do if the enemy outnumbers or out-powers you.

It does not matter who it is that surrenders. Surrender in this scenario shows that the person surrendering fears dying in the woods, like an animal. I also consider the Empire to be cowards for the White-Gold Concordant, but I am sure you, DrunkenMage, and other imperial supporters will counter that with the why, saying that without the why, the act means nothing.

Hmmm. This is a tough act to follow. From personal experience, one never truly surrenders, not if it's in your heart to fight. What happens though is you may want to fight back, but you're circumstance dictates you simply cannot do anything except try and stop the battle.

Now, I agree with your sentiment about Torygg, you know, why is it ok for him to go and fight an impossible battle however Ulfric on at least two sep occasions is excused for either being absent or sending his army in his place instead of facing the odds.

I probably shouldn't have said anything because now you seem to wanna shy away from the Empire, for whatever reason.

The thing is though, sometimes you can't fight back and there's nothing you can do except try and convince your enemy to stand down and meet said enemy face to face and try to leave as friends. There's no shame in that I think.

But it's a matter of honor to stand for one thing when it's convenient for you, holding people to impossible odds that you yourself could never meet.

It's complicated. So what can I say? Every day is a new day. There's stuff in Sun Tzu about this as well as in Klingon Proverbs... like "Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory..." for example.

That is how it is. Whatever the reason for it, Surrender is a form of cowardice, meaning you are afraid to keep going. Can't is in the mind, and a mental form of surrender.

 

[Vatonage]

That is how it is. Whatever the reason for it, Surrender is a form of cowardice, meaning you are afraid to keep going. Can't is in the mind, and a mental form of surrender.

Who are you? WHAT ARE YOU?
He's not Imperial nor Stormcloak....

THAALLMOORR

 

[Jeremius]

That is how it is. Whatever the reason for it, Surrender is a form of cowardice, meaning you are afraid to keep going. Can't is in the mind, and a mental form of surrender.

Who are you? WHAT ARE YOU?
He's not Imperial nor Stormcloak....

THAALLMOORR

Always saying that about me. IS that a Stormcloak battlecry now?

And it was my honest opinion.

 

[Vatonage]

Always saying that about me. IS that a Stormcloak battlecry now?

And it was my honest opinion.

You're not agreeing with the Imperials, but you call Ulfric, the true high king, a coward!

You're either Balgruuf, or a.... THAALLMOOAARR!

I have deduced Jeremius!

P.S. I have to ask Ulfric, soon it WILL be a Nordic Battlecry!

 

[Jeremius]

Always saying that about me. IS that a Stormcloak battlecry now?

And it was my honest opinion.

You're not agreeing with the Imperials, but you call Ulfric, the true high king, a coward!

You're either Balgruuf, or a.... THAALLMOOAARR!

I have deduced Jeremius!

P.S. I have to ask Ulfric, soon it WILL be a Nordic Battlecry!

For surrendering WHEN he knew he would lose, despite the fact that Torygg, who Ulfric does not consider a true Nord or a true High King, chose to face the odds and die on his feet.

In other words, for only fighting when he knows he can win the fight, aka a bully.

 

[Vatonage]

For surrendering WHEN he knew he would lose, despite the fact that Torygg, who Ulfric does not consider a true Nord or a true High King, chose to face the odds and die on his feet.

In other words, for only fighting when he knows he can win the fight, aka a bully.

If a man attacked you with a sword, and you pulled a gun and shot him, would you consider yourself dishonorable? Or would you be the one who survived? A dead man can't do anything, an alive one can, so who survived is the victor.

In this case, Ulfric is the victor.

Also, who doesn't fight when they know they can win? In combat its generally inadvisable to engage if you cannot win the engagement, so why fight when you know you will lose? You gain nothing from the fight, only a loss. So avoid the fights you'll lose and take the ones you'll win. Common knowledge battle strategy...

 

[Jeremius]

For surrendering WHEN he knew he would lose, despite the fact that Torygg, who Ulfric does not consider a true Nord or a true High King, chose to face the odds and die on his feet.

In other words, for only fighting when he knows he can win the fight, aka a bully.

Also, who doesn't fight when they know they can win? In combat its generally inadvisable to engage if you cannot win the engagement, so why fight when you know you will lose? You gain nothing from the fight, only a loss. So avoid the fights you'll lose and take the ones you'll win. Common knowledge battle strategy...

In this situation, I think Running would be the better strategy, or plain killing yourself. Personally because I think dying on your knees is basically the same as being a slave.