Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Docta Corvina]

Docta Corvina

Racial epithets and insults? I play khajiit, Ulfric calls me "cat".. if I call you primate is that an insult? Rolff calls them dark-skins which again they are.. that's not much of a racial epithet, that's a term for generalizing their race, like us.. we have black, white, brown etc. ...

I suppose I could be wrong, but "Gray Skin" doesn't at all appear to be a term of endearment or even one employed neutrally to refer to the Dunmer. I've not heard the term used all that often in Skyrim, which is a credit to the Nords and other races I've encountered. But when it is used, it's not been in a pleasant or otherwise friendly fashion. And, just like in real life, if someone calls someone else a primate, it's dependent upon context whether it's neutral or not. I think you realize this and in any case, that's not what we're talking about here.

Sorry, but Janus' post and point resonate. The dialogue speaks for itself, especially in the case of a man who openly despises the Dunmer as a group. He makes no bones about that.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

Docta Corvina
Racial epithets and insults? I play khajiit, Ulfric calls me "cat".. if I call you primate is that an insult? Rolff calls them dark-skins which again they are.. that's not much of a racial epithet, that's a term for generalizing their race, like us.. we have black, white, brown etc. ...

Just because you don't see the terms as offensive, doesn't mean others don't find them offensive. It all depends on the individual.

 

[nogz]

Janus3003

Again you fail to see that dark-skins is used in general terms, you don't address an individual with black, white, brown or etc. but we still use them when we talk about the specific ethnic group.. this doesn't make it an racial epithet.. you are also sentient, that doesn't make you any less of a primate..

 

[Janus3003]

Janus3003

Again you fail to see that dark-skins is used in general terms, you don't address an individual with black, white, brown or etc. but we still use them when we talk about the specific ethnic group... you are also sentient, that doesn't make you any less of a primate..

You totally missed/ignored the comment about tone, didn't you?

 

[mast3rlinkx]

I hope this guy doesn't turn out to be the kind of guy to make up ridiculous stuff when backed to a wall.

 

[Docta Corvina]

The way he spits out the term "Gray Skins" is more than enough evidence for me. Again, I'm not even sure what there is to debate as the guy clearly has serious spite for the Dark Elves. There's not much to misinterpret.

He'd be more credible if he left the matter of race out of his grievances. By all means, complain about not taking sides, as hilarious as it is for him to want them to support Ulfric. But linking that in with his bitterness and suspicions for the race...yeah, Rolff's a real winner.

 

[nogz]

Janus3003

My point is, he might hate them as race or ethnic group, for whatever reason (probably cos they are not taking a side in the civil war), but he is not using racial slurs.. are we that far in the political correctness blackhole that now we can't use black, white, brown etc. when we talk about an ethnic group cos it's a racial slur?? When did this happened? I missed that..

 

[mast3rlinkx]

Janus3003

My point is, he might hate them as race or ethnic group, for whatever reason (probably cos they are not taking a side in the civil war), but he is not using racial slurs..

"Gray-skin" is a racial slur the way Rolff uses it, dude. It's all dependent on how you say it. The way he says it, Gray-skin is a racial slur. As Janus said, it's all in the tone.

 

[Uther Pundragon]

Seriously. Some people are racist in Skyrim while some are not. Don't like a comment one of them makes about your character or a certain race? Well, you are well within your rights to stick your blade deep into their gut. Dunmer can be just as racist as any Nord in Skyrim and anyone who has played Morrowind will know this.

Personally, I can't stand racist people. It just shows how ignorant and idiotic they are. But this is a game, one where you have some say and control over. If you can't stand the Nords in Windhelm then you have the choice to join the Imperial Legion and bring a boot down on their face. Or you can avoid the town completely. Or you can try to change it by eliminating those you find racist. Or whatever, you know?

I mean sure, it would have been nice if you could change peoples viewpoints about certain things in the game with a little speech craft but it is a game and not every logical choice is offered at all times. But that does not mean you do not have a choice. I try not to let my personal opinions interfere with a game like Skyrim. It is all about what my current character I'm role playing thinks. I've played a Dunmer before who could not stand Nords. Any of them. Which lead to his early death but that is the price you pay sometimes.

 

[Janus3003]

Janus3003
My point is, he might hate them as race or ethnic group, for whatever reason (probably cos they are not taking a side in the civil war), but he is not using racial slurs..

Of course. That makes him so much more respectable.
If it was only a case of them not choosing a side (and I really get the impression that the Dunmer have been oppressed since before the Civil War, anyway), I think he'd be more likely to say something like "Get out of Windhelm" than "Go back to Morrowind." The latter is much like me telling a black person to "go back to Africa," especially when there's a good chance s/he is not actually from there.
Whatever the man's excuse for racism is, it's not good enough. You can be against neutrality without applying it to the neutral force's race.

 

[Docta Corvina]

You can be against neutrality without applying it to the neutral force's race.

THIS! This is what I was trying to say, but you've managed it much more eloquently.

 

[nogz]

mast3rlinkx

Well, sure maybe. Point taken. If I talk about black, white, etc. people and I say it really mean that could be viewed as a racial slur, but still the word itself is not charged with racism. What would have helped is if there were one or two dark elves that supported and had interactions with the Stormcloaks, it would be interesting to see how they would have been addressed..

 

[mast3rlinkx]

mast3rlinkx

Well, sure maybe. Point taken. If I talk about black, white, etc. people and I say it really mean that could be viewed as a racial slur, but still the word itself is not charged with racism. What would have helped is if there was one or two dark elves that supported and had interactions with the Stormcloaks, it would be interesting to see how they would have been addressed..

We never said the word itself was racist. We said the way it was used was racist. Context and tone can make a neutral word extremely racist.

But considering that Dunmer are much more racist than Nords, I doubt much more than one or two would side with the Stormcloaks. Dunmer are much more likely to side with the Empire.

 

[nogz]

mast3rlinkx

Well, someone said he is using racial epithets.. in any case he is prejudice or racists whatever, the real point is WHY, is it cos their skin or race?? Or cos they don't help in the war effort?? Would he be a racist in peace time??

 

[mast3rlinkx]

mast3rlinkx

Well, someone said he is using racial epithets.. in any case he is prejudice or racists whatever, the real point is WHY, is it cos their skin or race?? Or cos they don't help in the war effort?? Would he be a racist in peace time??

Yes, he would. He was racist even before the civil war. I'm quite confident of that.

 

[Janus3003]

Would he still be that racist in peace time??

Good chance he would be. He's already let his hatred of them for their neutrality become racially charged. It's not like the Dunmer will magically change race after the civil war.

"Hooray, we won the war. No, stay in the Gray Quarter, gray-skin scum, you didn't help."
"Jarl Ulfric! This man is oppressing us!"
"Are you a Nord?"
"No."
"Then shut the **** up!" *fangirls swoon*

 

[Raijin]

If it weren't for the damn rebellion, the Empire would have regained its footing long ago. It's because of Ulfric that the Empire's gotten weaker than it should have. You make Ulfric look like a saint, but he's a racist, egotistical bastard who's responsible for the Empire's being almost dead. His war is taking up resources that would normally be put into recovery. That, my friend, is why I side with the Empire. Because Ulfric is a racist, egotistical bastard who doesn't think things completely through. If he truly hated the Thalmor, he'd never have started the war, unless he's just that foolish. There's a lot more evidence for Ulfric being the bad guy than the reverse. All you have for the Empire is that they tried to decapitate you.
And I said it's been a few years since I talked to the last Dwemer, who resides in Morrowind.

Now wait a min. How exactly is it Ulfrics fault for weakening an already weaken empire? Ulfric didn't make the empire sign the White-Gold Concordat treaty that ban the worship of Talos so how exactly is it his fault? To be open minded about the whole situation I can understand the empires decisions to do it because they were struggling, however every action comes with consequences. The ban the worship of Talos clearly favors the Thalmor/A.D but it didn't suit well with many people as they felt betrayed by their empire. It went as far as to have someone, Amaund Motierre of questionable background, go out and hire the Dark Brotherhood to assassinate the emperor. After you successfully kill the Emperer Amaund praises you and essentially tells you that you've done the Empire a greater service than you might realize. To say that Ulfric made the empire weak is ridiculous. If anything it was Emperer Titus Mede II that made the empire weak, not some rebel.

Ulfric once fought for the empire now fighting against it, and that goes for many of his Stormcloak soldiers who once were imperial legion soldiers themselves. Ulfric believes that Skyrim is better off without being in the shackles of the empire, and IMO if he thinks he can take full control over skyrim and run a decent military (which hes flawless over) then good for him.

 

[mast3rlinkx]

Now wait a min. How exactly is it Ulfrics fault for weakening an already weaken empire? Ulfric didn't make the empire sign the White-Gold Concordat treaty that ban the worship of Talos so how exactly is it his fault? To be open minded about the whole situation I can understand the empires decisions to do it because they were struggling, however every action comes with consequences. The ban the worship of Talos clearly favors the Thalmor/A.D but it didn't suit well with many people as they felt betrayed by their empire. It went as far as to have someone, Amaund Motierre of questionable background, go out and hire the Dark Brotherhood to assassinate the emperor. After you successfully kill the Emperer Amaund praises you and essentially tells you that you've done the Empire a greater service than you might realize. To say that Ulfric made the empire weak is ridiculous. If anything it was Emperer Titus Mede II that made the empire weak, not some rebel.

Ulfric once fought for the empire now fighting against it, and that goes for many of his Stormcloak soldiers who once were imperial legion soldiers themselves. Ulfric believes that Skyrim is better off without being in the shackles of the empire, and IMO if he thinks he can take full control over skyrim and run a decent military (which hes flawless over) then good for him.

The reason Ulfric is weakening it further is because his war is eating up what little resources the Empire has left after the Great War. War takes resources, and the Empire had very little at the start of his little war to begin with. I'll acknowledge that Mede is not as skilled an emperor as most of the Septims, but he had a tough decision to make. He made the harder choice, and it bought him the time the Empire would need to build up resources to completely destroy the Dominion. Had Ulfric not started a Civil War, the Empire would have already begun rebuilding its military.

 

[nogz]

mast3rlinkx

That might be true, I don't know.. is there any backstory on him??

 

[Janus3003]

Now wait a min. How exactly is it Ulfrics fault for weakening an already weaken empire?

Think of it this way-
Grandma's about to fall over. Instead of helping her stay up, you kick her in the back of the knee.
...why would you do that to Grandma, Raijin?

It went as far as to have someone, Amaund Motierre of questionable background, go out and hire the Dark Brotherhood to assassinate the emperor. After you successfully kill the Emperer Amaund praises you and essentially tells you that you've done the Empire a greater service than you might realize.

Am I the only one that got the impression Motierre was just doing that for his own political ends? I can't take the words a guy who hires the Dark Brotherhood at face value.