Elder Scrolls Skyrim Forum Fan Site

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Welcome to Skyrim Forums! Register now to participate using the 'Sign Up' button on the right. You may now register with your Facebook or Steam account!

Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Not an excuse :) We all know how sloppy Bethesda can be. Look at the companion sage for a prime example. A total disaster :)

Grasping at straws once again. Forgetting to include Non-Nords into the Stormcloak is deliberate, not a mistake. Including Non-Nords in the ranks of the Stormcloaks completely changes their dynamic and certainly wasn't just overlooked. You can like them as much as you want but you have to acknowledge that they are racist.

Do you have a magical crystal ball that can tell you what will happen in the future of a fictional war? How do you know for sure that the Stormcloaks will be slaughtered against a full -on invasion by the Thalmor? Skyrim don't need the Empire.. it's the other way around.

Logical conclusions. Believing that the Stormcloaks, who's force is dwindling against 2-4 of the "dying Empire's" legions, have a chance against the Thalmor is hilarious ..... but stupid to say the least.

It's safe to say that we don't understand each other at all. I will make this nice and short. The Thalmor forced the emperor to sign a treaty to ban the worship of Talos and he accepted. He acknowledges that Tiber Septim did not descended to godhood and therefor he should not be worship. According to the horse thief the empire was lazy. It is the Empires fault for not regulating their own laws which resulted of having the Thalmor step in and start enforcing it themselves.

>"I hate the ban"
Few pages later in that same thread
>"I hate that the Empire doesn't enforce the ban"
Raijin logic.

I'd say its better that the Thalmor have to step in and enforce it themselves. Okay, sure, people die and its definitely not a good thing but only those who are open about it die, instead of triple that number rotting in jails.

So tell me what was my heinous crime? Ulfric can sympathize with you because the Empire was too quick to send people to the chopping block without a trial. You as the prisoner was picked up by the Imperials, and without having a conviction of your crimes you were sentenced to death. You don't become a criminal until after you been tried and convicted of a crime.


Legal Dictionary | Law.com


criminal
1) n. a popular term for anyone who has committed a crime, whether convicted of the offense or not. More properly it should apply only to those actually convicted of a crime. Repeat offenders are sometimes called habitual criminals. 2) adj. describing certain acts or people involved in or relating to a crime. Examples of uses include "criminal taking," "criminal conspiracy," a "criminal gang."
See also: convict felon habitual criminal

So in law terms your logical about Ulfric recruiting criminals is a fallacy, but nice try thought.

I'll just answer this with your own quote, buddy, saves me some time.

I suppose it's neither of our fault because Bethesda is known to confuse us with lack of storyline in Skyrim.

You love to contradict yourself, don't you?

Whether or not you truly are a criminal, the point still stands. Can Ulfric read minds? Can he see the past? Does he know exactly what's going on with the Dragonborn the moment he ends up in front of him on that prisoner convey? He didn't know anything about you other than the fact that you are in the same position he is in ... on a prisoner convey presumably for committing a terrible crime, doesn't matter if you did or not. You can copy and paste a dictionary definition as much as you want but its not going to change or help your argument.

The fact that you continue to defend Ulfric's logic as opposed to the Empire's ways (which is the EXACT same logic the Empire used to recruit that lovely Captain you hate) is a fallacy, itself. But like I said, its not relevant even if you like to bring it up so much.
 
Just one leigon actually. 5000 soldiers at the most. Which makes the Stormcloaks chances of defeating the Thalmor even lower...
With proper tactics the Stormcloaks could defeat a legion or even an army, but those tactics would be rather dishonorable and a man like Ulfric would never swallow his ego enough to fight smarter rather than harder.
 
Just one leigon actually. 5000 soldiers at the most....
Source? I'm not aware of any source that gives the actual number or even an approximation for the number of Legionnaires that comprise a Legion. I've read speculations based on the fact that they're modeled in part on the Roman Legions but that's not a very persuasive basis for positing what the actual numbers are, approximate or otherwise.
 
Source? I'm not aware of any source that gives the actual number or even an approximation for the number of Legionnaires that comprise a Legion. I've read speculations based on the fact that they're modeled in part on the Roman Legions but that's not a very persuasive basis for positing what the actual numbers are, approximate or otherwise.

Yeah, it's just an approximation based on the the number a leigon reprsented in real life. I don't think the number is ever stated in the lore. At best we know that there are about 18-20+ leigons total but not how many are in each one.
 
Source? I'm not aware of any source that gives the actual number or even an approximation for the number of Legionnaires that comprise a Legion. I've read speculations based on the fact that they're modeled in part on the Roman Legions but that's not a very persuasive basis for positing what the actual numbers are, approximate or otherwise.
Yeah, it's just an approximation based on the the number a leigon reprsented in real life. I don't think the number is ever stated in the lore. At best we know that there are about 18-20+ leigons total but not how many are in each one.
I would say for all intents and purposes that we might as well use the Roman legion as a rough number to base it on until a more canon source is provided, so we can say that there are most likely, if not less, ~5000 imperial legionnaires in Skyrim at the time of the Civil War at the most. I don't think there are more than that.
 
I never liked either side. When I first started playing Skyrim, I was genuinely disappointed there wasn't a "Screw You Both" option.

I got even more annoyed with both leaders when I was trying to arrange the peace conference. When I approached Ulfric he was initially: "You've come to join my side? Yippee!" despite the fact when I'd approached him as a noob he was all "It takes courage to approach a Jarl uninvited" even though we were nearly chopping block buddies. At least he gave me the option of saying no though, and took it gracefully. When I went to Tullius he was so convinced I was here to join his Legion he didn't even give me that option initially, just told me to speak to Rikke and walked off. I had to chase him down and talk again before he grudgingly let me talk about the peace conference.

I started a new character later and picked the Imperials because she was a Dark Elf, but only because I wanted to play the Civil War quests to see what they were like. I don't think I'll ever play them again, or see what they are like from the Stormcloak's perspective. I just can't bring myself to like either side. They can just stay gridlocked in Skyrim forever without my intervention until they all die of old age. Screw them both.
 
Just one leigon actually. 5000 soldiers at the most. Which makes the Stormcloaks chances of defeating the Thalmor even lower...

Completely speculation, obviously, but I think it would be a little bit more than one legion. Lets say they do have 12-20 legions, I would think that 1-2 legion(s) would be the normal amount of troops in Skyrim to simply occupy it. With a rebellion the size of the Stormcloaks they would at least put 1 or 2 more legions in the mix to crush it as fast as possible without over-stretching their forces too much which is why I came to my 2-4 estimation. But how Raijin put it, that "dying" Empire can't possibly have more then that .. ;)

It's probably better that they don't reveal the number for Raijin's sake and he and his Stormcloaks can save a little dignity :p
 
Completely speculation, obviously, but I think it would be a little bit more than one legion.
As far as I'm concerned we have no idea how many Legions are in Skyrim but it's not really relevant to the overall point, which is that the Imperial Legion forces in Skyrim only comprise a part of the whole, that the Imperial Legions as a whole significantly outnumbers the Stormcloak armies, and therefore any argument that the Stormcloaks would fare as well as, let alone better than the Imperial Legion against an Aldmeri Dominion army as large as the one that invaded the Empire in the Great War is laughably stupid.

What is a valid counterpoint, although almost never made by anyone trying to advocate on behalf of the Stormcloaks in these threads (other than myself I can only think of one other person) is that the Empire and Hammerfell are in far more danger of an invasion than an independent Skyrim as there are no paths to Skyrim that wouldn't either require the movement of large Aldmeri Dominion armies through Cyrodiil or Hammerfell (which realistically isn't something either province would allow for their own security if for no other reason) or attempting a landing under unfavorable conditions on the treacherous rock lined northern shores of Skyrim while exposing itself to attack from the capital city of Solitude and whatever navy the Stormcloaks could muster to bottleneck the way.

Strategically it makes no sense to do this as it could also leave the Aldmeri Dominion itself susceptible to attacks from both the Empire and Hammerfell by moving that many armed forces far away from its borders and shorelines. The sensible strategy would be to invade either or both the Empire and Hammerfell so it could both simultaneously defend its territory while extending it as it did during The Great War which is why all the talk of Skyrim being invaded by the Aldmeri Dominion is rather unpersuasive.
 
You're disregarding historical precident in your conclusion. Hammerfell, refusing to agree to the terms of the peace, was expunged from the empire and repeatedly devistated by the Aldmeri. Hammerfell isn't in danger of being invaded. Half of it is occupied. Game lore states that the redguards managed to fight the dominion "to a stalemate" - that doesn't remotely suggest that they were able to kick the elves out of their nation or reclaim any of their lost territories.

Invading Skyrim from the north would involve storming beachheads, sure, but in all the north, only Solitude is in any position to offer up any resistance, Dawnstar and Winterhold being virtually defenseless in their current state, even before the civil war. Any incoming army could pretty much unload their troops and have free roam all through the Pale until they hit Windhelm or Whiterun.

That said, there's really no reason to assume that the elves would stick with a one sided-assault. Morrowind is in complete shambles by all accounts, and is in no position to even slow down a determined army passing through a sliver of territory before assaulting Skyrim from the East, while Hammerfell has been occupied since the great war.

Hammerfell, as broken in its own way as Morrowind, offers Skyrim little protection in the West either. All the texts I've seen on the subject seem to indicate that most of southern Hammerfell is occupied by the dominion. It doesn't seem like a huge leap of faith to imagine that the elves could get troops through Hammerfell into Skyrim in the west.

You said that strategically it makes no sense to move troops so far away from home, but I'll point out to you that historically empires have sprung up right here on Earth by doing that very thing. We might have to assume that Summerset has an at least adequate navy for this, but then again it *is* an island nation that launched a successful invasion of cyrodiil, so that's not really a stretch.

England ruled an empire of disconnected nations successfully by right of water superiority for a good long time. What makes it so unlikely on Nirn?
 
During the current time period, the Empire consists of only Cyrodiil, High Rock, Skyrim, and Morrowind.

Hamerfall went independant (and paid for it), while Elsweyr actually joined the dominion.

-Edited- Had an incorrect bit in there.
 
Oh, that's interesting.

So what is the problem with the Dominion exactly? I understand the whole Elven supremacy outlook, but will they act upon it again? I don't support the Empire but I'd prefer the Dominion so long as they don't enslave anyone.
 
I think the problem is twofold between the nords and the dominion. First and foremost, Nords have been fighting elves for as long as Skyrim has been a nation. High elves, Dark elves, snow elves, the dwarves. Orcs, that have taken up holds in the wilderness from High Rock to Black Marsh. Nords and elves of any flavor have a long and well documented history of mutual antagonism.

The dominion in particular, however, feel that no mere human could possibly have ascended to godhood when they themselves (according to popular altmer beliefs) are fallen decendants of the gods. The whole idea of Talos offends them to the core.

The empire held them leashed for centuries, but this tension was always brewing under the surface. One of the news topics that citizens would discuss in passing in the game Oblivion was specifically about the unrest that was gaining strength in the Summerset Isles, strongly hinting that the high elves would feature prominently in the next chapter of the game.

Anyhow, weakening Skyrim and invading what's left allows the elves to kill two birds with one stone - they can beat down their ancient enemies (the ones that drove out the dark elves and exterminated the snow elves entirely), and crush the remaining center of Talos worship in the process. Considering that the dominion has 4 nations from which to draw their resources, it's really a win/win scenario for them once the Empire is no longer involved.

Bottom line is that the elves *want* to fight and conquer Skyrim. It might not be entirely rational - it's like an itch that they just need to scratch. I don't think it would be unfair to compare it to the Christian need to conquer Jerusalem during the crusades.
 
During the current time period, the Empire consists of only Cyrodiil, High Rock, Skyrim, and Morrowind.

Hamerfall went independant (and paid for it), while Elsweyr and Black Marsh actually joined the dominion.
Black Marsh is actually independent from both the Dominion and Empire, and is a friend to neither. Elsweyr is, for all intents and purposes, dissolved and separated into the Kingdoms of Anequina and Pelletine, which were then manipulated into being absorbed by the Dominion.

These are the sources I used to double check this, in case you are curious.

Lore:Black Marsh - UESPWiki
Lore:Aldmeri Dominion - UESPWiki
Lore:Elsweyr - UESPWiki
 
So Elsweyr is pulling a Prince? The kingdom *formerly known as Elsweyr* is part of the Dominion.

Not sure now where I got my info on the argonian lands. Maybe I misread Anequina as Argonia while making an earlier point (which, ironically, had nothing to do with either of these lands). Unless I can find anything else on that subject, I'm going to proceed under the idea that I did exactly that.

My bad.
 
So Elsweyr is pulling a Prince? The kingdom *formerly known as Elsweyr* is part of the Dominion.

Not sure now where I got my info on the argonian lands. Maybe I misread Anequina as Argonia while making an earlier point (which, ironically, had nothing to do with either of these lands). Unless I can find anything else on that subject, I'm going to proceed under the idea that I did exactly that.

My bad.
To save a lot of head ache, Anequina and Pelletine joined to be Elsweyr way back who the hell cares when then the Thalmor, who are masters of political manipulation, split them back up and absorbed the two weakened states into the Dominion. Or something like that.
 
You're disregarding historical precident in your conclusion. Hammerfell, refusing to agree to the terms of the peace, was expunged from the empire and repeatedly devistated by the Aldmeri. Hammerfell isn't in danger of being invaded. Half of it is occupied...
No I'm not. You simply lack a firm grasp of the relevant lore. None of Hammerfell is occupied. The Aldmeri Dominion sued for peace and withdrew all of its forces pursuant to the terms of the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai over 20 years ago. I also never said Hammerfell was in danger of being invaded. I implied the exact opposite in that the Aldmeri Dominion could be leaving it's borders underdefended by taking a circuitous invasion route to Skyrim with such a large portion of its armies. Hammerfell has had over two decades, almost as much time as the Empire, to rebuild its infrastructure and armies and the threat of Hammerfell and/or the Empire taking advantage of the absence of such a large portion of the Aldmeri armies is plausible enough that the Aldmeri Dominion would have to factor it into any invasion plans.
Invading Skyrim from the north would involve storming beachheads, sure, but in all the north, only Solitude is in any position to offer up any resistance, Dawnstar and Winterhold being virtually defenseless in their current state, even before the civil war.
First of all, if you understand the geography of Tamriel, you would realize that all fleets must pass Solitude and it's lighthouse and would easily be spotted for miles from the vantage point of the capital city. They would be open to attack from the Skyrim navy before even making landfall and in general their presence would be known long before they could make landfall further along the coastline. There's no chance of an element of suprise that favors the Aldmeri Dominion as it did when it made landfall in Hammerfell during the Great War

Second once one passes Solitude one enters the Sea of Ghosts which are noted in the lore as "ice choked", i.e filled with hazards such as icebergs further out from the shoreline, while the shorelines themselves are largely rock lined and dangerous to navigate (observable first hand in the game). Winterhold in particular is insulated by shoreline conditions precipitated by the Great Collapse.

Third, there's no reliable basis to assume that Dawnstar is virtually defenseless and even less so to speculate that it would remain so. The meager number of guards and population in general is a function of scaling to make the game playable and to scale the cities relative to one another. One shouldn't read into it that there are literally only a handful of guards garrisoned there unless one is also going to assume that an invading fleet is only going to be constituted of a half dozen ships. If it were that easy then the Empire would have assaulted it from the sea during the civil war. At one point it was a garrison city with walls and a fort and it's not unreasonable to assume that it would be refortified by the Stormcloaks.

One final note, the distance by sea from Lillandril, the closest port city on Summerset Isle to Skyrim's northern shores is over 1,000 miles by sea from Solitude, but that's straight line distance and staying close to the coastline. Conventional navigation by sailing doesn't allow for a straight line path. While it would be extremely generous to attribute the speed of a fully loaded 15th century carrack to an Aldmeri Dominion warship, even if we did that it would still take an Aldmeri Dominion naval fleet approximately 2 weeks to reach Solitude under optimal conditions assuming they never set anchor along the way, and a few more days to reach Dawnstar.

The allocation of soldiers to each ship would therefore be relatively small for such a long trip as it would require the ships to stock more provisions to sustain the crew and soldiers for such a long duration as well as for the initial days if not weeks of an invasion. There is nothing in the lore to support the notion that the Aldmeri Dominion has ever possessed a sufficient number of ships to accomplish such a feat. Contrary to that, the use of the Aldmeri Dominion navy for amphibious landings during the Great War was minimal compared to the number of soldiers that made the assault over land. Even if it did, there's still an additional problem created by the large distance which is a supply line or, more specifically, the lack thereof.
That said, there's really no reason to assume that the elves would stick with a one sided-assault. Morrowind is in complete shambles by all accounts, and is in no position to even slow down a determined army passing through a sliver of territory before assaulting Skyrim from the East, while Hammerfell has been occupied since the great war.
Neither is a viable option. Hammerfell is not occupied. Morrowind is under the dominion of Argonia. "All the texts" you have read are wrong. There is only one narrative from the lore regarding Hammerfell and the Aldmeri Dominion after the Great War which is the book The Great War by Legate Justianus Quintius. It is the definitive lore on the subject matter and categorically states that the Aldmeri Dominion withdrew its forces from Hammerfell. It's beyond a great leap of faith to think that the Aldmeri Dominion could march through Hammerfell unopposed. It's delusional.
You said that strategically it makes no sense to move troops so far away from home, but I'll point out to you that historically empires have sprung up right here on Earth by doing that very thing.
No they haven't. If you can think of one example from history of a realm that sent the bulk of its armed forces on a long naval route to faraway shores while under the potential shadow of assault by realms on its borders then go ahead and cite it. The British Empire certainly never did this which is why your comparison isn't even remotely analagous.
 
i choose stormcloaks mainly becuse it was more of a rebel choice for me.Imperials just seemed to be like the goverment that liked to control evreything. To classy for me.Thats really the only reason why i went down that path and well im glad i did the quests were very fun. I havent done the imperials though.But they took me hostage at first so they pissed me off why would i want to be on a team were they tied me up..Meh not my style lol
 
During the current time period, the Empire consists of only Cyrodiil, High Rock, Skyrim, and Morrowind.
Morrowind is not part of the Empire. It was conquered by Argonia after the Oblivion Crisis at the beginning of the Fourth Era.
Hamerfall went independant (and paid for it)...
By securing unconditional freedom from the Aldmeri Dominion for all of Hammerfell including the freedom to worship whoever they want. Yep the really paid for it. :rolleyes:
 
Back
Top