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Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Tullius had the power, with this kind of information regarding to the Thalmor setting this war up, to temporary stop this war, and to make temporary alliances with both parties to deal with the Dominion. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Tullius failed again.
Ulfric killed his king and wanted to break for the Empire. He makes it clear that nothing but his absolute victory or death would end things. Te fact is it's impossible to negotiate with him. Is that really the Nord way?
 
Actually, it's known that Nords can't handle pressure at all. Lokir (a Nord) tried to run. We also know that Imperials are all gentle priests (the Moth dude in Dawnguard), all Redguards are smarmy jerkholes (Nazeem), all Khajiit have cryptic words of wisdom (M'aiq), all High Elves would get along find living in Windhelm...

Lokir isn't a Stormcloak. Hes a damn horse thief. According to Imperial laws thief does not implement execution as a punishment.
Theft (sometimes called Larceny)

Any act of stealing, taking, or, without explicit written or verbal permission (or what a reasonable person would infer as implied permission) an item or items from a person, group of persons, or entity a reasonable person might assume to be sentient's place of residence, business, person, or other location a reasonable person would assume is secured from looting. The punishment for this crime may include a fine or incarceration, or a fine and incarceration.


These are the usual, day-to-day definitions used by legal experts (like myself), but both the definitions and punishments may fluctuate wildly according to location and situation. In the Imperial City, legal counsel is available by persons like myself, but the provinces have no such system in place. Perhaps that will change in time. We can all hope so.

So thank you for reminding us just how out of control the Legion is in Skyrim.
 
Lokir isn't a Stormcloak. Hes a damn horse thief. According to Imperial laws thief does not implement execution as a punishment.
Theft (sometimes called Larceny)

Any act of stealing, taking, or, without explicit written or verbal permission (or what a reasonable person would infer as implied permission) an item or items from a person, group of persons, or entity a reasonable person might assume to be sentient's place of residence, business, person, or other location a reasonable person would assume is secured from looting. The punishment for this crime may include a fine or incarceration, or a fine and incarceration.


These are the usual, day-to-day definitions used by legal experts (like myself), but both the definitions and punishments may fluctuate wildly according to location and situation. In the Imperial City, legal counsel is available by persons like myself, but the provinces have no such system in place. Perhaps that will change in time. We can all hope so.

So thank you for reminding us just how out of control the Legion is in Skyrim.
They wanted to execute him because they thought he was a Stormcloack. Maybe that's a hint that the Stormcloacks are out of control?
Also, did you notice every action Ulfric takes seems to be a bid for power? He reminds me of a certain Sith Lord from the Star Wars series.
 
They wanted to execute him because they thought he was a Stormcloack. Maybe that's a hint that the Stormcloacks are out of control?
Also, did you notice every action Ulfric takes seems to be a bid for power? He reminds me of a certain Sith Lord from the Star Wars series.

Why didn't they give him a chance to prove himself innocent? Why didn't they take him down to the prisons where they can later interrogate him on his suppose connections with the stormcloaks? The fact is he stole a horse to escape this war, and was capture by it anyways. He should've been in jail for his crime of stealing, not to be waiting in line awaiting to be executed.
 
But I don't understand why you feel it is so much better to cast aside something that is a fundamental part of these peoples identities for a false peace. If beliefs aren't worth fighting for then what do you suggest are worthy causes of war? So again I ask Why is honor not a valid reason?
You don't simply cast aside faith. Every Nord is perfectly capable of revering and praying to Talos. However, that's not good enough. They have to be vocal about it, and how they're not happy with the WGC one bit. They even started a war over it! Also, although it's a false peace, it's still peace. The Dominion isn't sending armies, and there seems to be nothing to stop the rest of Tamriel from recovering for round two except for this civil war. Guess who started that?
 
Why didn't they give him a chance to prove himself innocent? Why didn't they take him down to the prisons where they can later interrogate him on his suppose connections with the stormcloaks? The fact is he stole a horse to escape this war, and was capture by it anyways. He should've been in jail for his crime of stealing, not to be waiting in line awaiting to be executed.
Because he was running away. Before anyone could even try to be a voice of reason, he was all "You're not gonna catch me!". So lets say a criminal who is suspected of killing an unknowable number of people was trying to escape. What would you do?
 
They wanted to execute him because they thought he was a Stormcloack. Maybe that's a hint that the Stormcloacks are out of control?
Also, did you notice every action Ulfric takes seems to be a bid for power? He reminds me of a certain Sith Lord from the Star Wars series.

I know it is a little off topic but which Sith lord?

I still do not trust the legion all that much because of that captain. If they have one person like her, who else would execute me if given the chance? Will forgive, but not put heart into the faction.
 
I know it is a little off topic but which Sith lord?

I still do not trust the legion all that much because of that captain. If they have one person like her, who else would execute me if given the chance? Will forgive, but not put heart into the faction.
I mean Sidonus. Remember him? Nice guy. Good with a crowd. Eventually gained an evil empire that the people handed to him with thunderous applause.
 
You don't simply cast aside faith. Every Nord is perfectly capable of revering and praying to Talos. However, that's not good enough. They have to be vocal about it, and how they're not happy with the WGC one bit. They even started a war over it! Also, although it's a false peace, it's still peace. The Dominion isn't sending armies, and there seems to be nothing to stop the rest of Tamriel from recovering for round two except for this civil war. Guess who started that?

Why should the Nords have to keep their religion a secret? Why can't they be open? Why can't they sing about their love for Talos in an open settings without being hunted down like a deer from the Thalmor? The fact is the Empire sold not just their religion freedom to the Thalmor, but also their culture as well. What is wrong with fighting for your freedom?

I don't know about you but I cherish freedom to be able to worship whatever gods I want, but to also carry on my tradition and culture. If my Government came knocking on my door telling me that I can no longer celebrate Thanksgiving or Christmas I would simply laugh at them and shut the door, and continue on with my life. Sure I may go to prison for disobeying my government, but at least I'm standing up for what I truly believe in.
 
I mean Sidonus. Remember him? Nice guy. Good with a crowd. Eventually gained an evil empire that the people handed to him with thunderous applause.

Plus what About What Ralof says. He says they were caught outside Darkwater Crossing, but we had to be caught with them for us to be mistaken as with them. So either Ralof Lied about us crossing the border or we were caught when the Stormcloaks tried to escape, or something.
 
...The fact is that the segregation of the Dunmer in Windhelm isn't exactly the highest priority in Skyrim right now. It is to rid of all Thalmor and the imperial legion...
No the fact is that abolishing the segregation law isn't even on his list. Repealing the segregation law doesn't require taking any priority over his war campaign. As I keep telling you, all he has to do is issue an edict repealing the law. As Jarl of Eastmarch his word is law and it takes no more effort for him to dictate an edict than it does for him to order lunch. He chooses not to repeal the law because he supports the segregation of the Dunmer which is why your opinion that he's not racist is about as valid as an opinion that the Earth is flat. As others have pointed out it's by no means even close to the most oppressive forms of racism and by inference one is free to assume he's not an extreme racist, but to deny any element of racism to his character is to deny the existence of the content that the game presents to you.
... Ulfric wants Skyrims Independence, and not that I blame him for it either because Hammerfell wasn't going to put up with the Empires weakness when they forced the Emperor to release the country to them.
This is a false analogy. Hammerfell was essentially of one mind when the Redguard resistance carried on the fight agains the Aldmeri Dominion. Skyrim is not. The Redguard resistance was fighting against an occupying force. The Stormcloaks are largely fighting against their fellow Nords who don't want to break apart from the Empire. The tenacity of the Redguard resistance to continue their fight before the ink was even dry on the White-Gold Concordat isn't even remotely comparable to a portion of the Nords deciding to impose their will on the rest of the Nords who disagree with them after tolerating the situation for over a quarter of a century.
......When you speak with the Thalmor Justiciars they never once mention that their there because of Ulfric. They said that their there to make sure that the Empire wasn't lying to their elven masters...
Try and read what I actually wrote instead of respponding to what you would like to pretend that I wrote. I never said that the Thalmor Justiciars were there because of Ulfric. I said that the level and severity of their activity is because of Ulfric and that's backed up by NPC dialogue as early as the quest Before The Storm if you talk to Alvor as he states that the extremity of the steps that the Thalmor are taking to enforce the ban on worship of Talos are due to Ulfric's actions and it's reaffirmed when you find the book Flight from the Thalmor at Sky Haven Temple which illustrates the lengths one had to go to before attracting the scrutiny of the Justiciars prior to the Stormcloak rebellion.
...Perhaps if the Empire wasn't so damn lazy (According to the horse thief), and actually enforced the law then perhaps the Thalmor doesn't need to be there in the first place.
The Thalmor Justiciars would be there regardless. It's their right under the White-Gold Concordat and they would be foolish to think that the Empire would comply with the ban in good faith without their presence to at least monitor the situation. Further, the Empire's lukewarm enforcement of the ban is hardly a valid argument against it as it makes it more sympathetic by portraying an Empire that is trying to do what it can to tacitly allow the discrete worship of Talos even though it's in violation of the treaty.
...Shes not the High Queen of skyrim, but it doesn't stop her from acting like one.
She doesn't act like the High Queen of Skyrim. She acts like the Jarl of Haafingar because that's what she is.
...Ulfric doesn't have the blood of the victim of the Thalmor Justiciars either.
He clearly does even if you choose to ignore game content to pretend otherwise. But for his actions the Thalmor wouldn't be detaining and interrrogating so many people in Skyrim.
 
Why should the Nords have to keep their religion a secret? Why can't they be open? Why can't they sing about their love for Talos in an open settings without being hunted down like a deer from the Thalmor? The fact is the Empire sold not just their religion freedom to the Thalmor, but also their culture as well. What is wrong with fighting for your freedom?

I don't know about you but I cherish freedom to be able to worship whatever gods I want, but to also carry on my tradition and culture. If my Government came knocking on my door telling me that I can no longer celebrate Thanksgiving or Christmas I would simply laugh at them and shut the door, and continue on with my life. Sure I may go to prison for disobeying my government, but at least I'm standing up for what I truly believe in.
Everyone should have that right. However, please remember that the Talos ban was the Aldmeri Dominions idea. If the Empire did not agree to that, the war would have continued and more people would have died. Tell me, is the right to worship openly worth suffering and dying for? Talos loved his people, and they're killing each other over him. He must be so proud.
 
If the united nations (no, they do not deserve capital letters) were to "bring peace" to the United States today, would those who oppose them be 'abandoning their loyalty to the un' ? Or, would they simply be honoring their loyalty to the US?
This is not analagous. The United Nations has no sovereignty over any nation that is a member of it and no citizen of any member state owes any allegiance to it. What would be analagous is the statement "If the United States Federal Government enforced an applicable federal law on the citizens of New York would those who defied the law be breaking the law?" The answer of course is yes.
 
Maybe it would be constructive to admit something that's wrong about the side we support. For example, I think the Empire's too sure of itself. After the Septims died, they're not as great as they used to be.
 
Unfortunately, a great deal of the people arguing for the Stormcloaks don't know much about lore

Neither does my character, she woke up in a cart about to get beheaded by the Imperials and was saved by a dragon and a Stormcloak. However between playing the game when I have time to read up I'm playing catch up. What can I say I have a life outside of Skyrim and do this in my downtime, but I still have opinions.

You don't know what happened in the great war, you don't know that multiple races fought in it, not just Nords, you don't know that the WGC is what saved humanity from being enslaved

You could be helpful and provide us with information on the Great War, but yeah that was painful to do that search. I can see how ranting about it was much more satisfying.

you don't know that the WGC is what saved humanity from being enslaved

The WGC saving humanity from being enslaved is debatable. It seems to have only postponed it for awhile.

Ulfric Stormcloak's actions will sever any relationship with foreign nations

I've addressed this with you before, foreign politics being what they are there is no way to speculate what may or may not happen once Ulfric is High King or what his abilities or the abilities of his emissaries will be.

you don't know that 'honor' isn't a fair reason

And you still have not convinced me of why this is so. All you have said is cast your values aside for a temporary solution.

1. Fine, but it might benefit you to try to understand what you're talking about before you start telling people they're wrong.

2. Funny, because that's basically exactly what I've been doing this entire thread. But you, as well as others, choose to pretend not to see it and then start talking about how we've never told you. Need information? Go to the UESP. It isn't that hard. I'm sick of writing the same plops for people who refuse to listen.

3. This is ridiculous. So you're saying it's bad that the WGC postponed enslavement of humanity?? You're making up the most bizarre reasons to be against the Imperials. You're saying they're bad because they protected humanity for as much time as they could. Get real. Provide some valid reasons.

4. Saying "There's no way to speculate" further shows your lack of knowledge here. Yes there is. It's not rocket science. If you discriminate towards a specific race of people, they aren't going to come back and help you. The Aldmeri Dominion isn't nearly as big a threat to Argonia as it is to the humans.

5. That's not my fault. I've provided every fluffing reason imaginable, yet all you do is skeptically say "you haven't convinced me, you must be wrong." Honor =/= winning! Get that through your head! It's better to save humanity for as long as you can then cause the entire race to become enslaved because "i fight 4 honor lol."

You are so stubborn, you just refuse to accept anything. If something is laid right in front of you, you say it doesnt' convince you, so therefore it is wrong. If you refuse to learn about lore, (because people who do somehow don't have lives,) and you refuse to listen to the voice of reason, then I have no idea why you're even in this thread.
 
No the fact is that abolishing the segregation law isn't even on his list. Repealing the segregation law doesn't require taking any priority over his war campaign. As I keep telling you, all he has to do is issue an edict repealing the law. As Jarl of Eastmarch his word is law and it takes no more effort for him to dictate an edict than it does for him to order lunch. He chooses not to repeal the law because he supports the segregation of the Dunmer which is why your opinion that he's not racist is about as valid as an opinion that the Earth is flat. As others have pointed out it's by no means even close to the most oppressive forms of racism and by inference one is free to assume he's not an extreme racist, but to deny any element of racism to his character is to deny the existence of the content that the game presents to you.

It is not on his list because likely, he does not benefit from it. Doing something because it is your duty and it is the right thing to do, it won't work on people like Ulfric. I will point to your precious lore and "The Bear of Markarth". Ulfric was asked to help, and what did he do? He first demanded that Nords be allowed to worship Talos openly and freely in Markarth. He expected something in return so he helped a fellow Jarl. If he was just asked and said "Okay" I would agree he should rescind the segregation policy. But at this point, he needs something to expect from doing so.
 
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