Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Mr.Self Destruct]

If you really had Skyrim's best interest at heart, you would stop this rebellion and help take down the real threat.

When you think about it this really is irrefutable.

 

[Moris]

((

))

Dammit. I nearly soaked the seat of my chair whilst choking on my coffee.

So funny I almost had liquids coming out of both ends!

 

[Ozan]

Dammit. I nearly soaked the seat of my chair whilst choking on my coffee.

So funny I almost had liquids coming out of both ends!

((...kinky?))

 

[Ulfric Stormcloak]

And if I surrender?

The Empire I remember never surrendered.

This isn't a cause, this is a rebellion. I fight so the Empire doesn't need to waste resources on this side show rebellion. So we can refocus our efforts on on the Thalmor. Most of the Legion is tied down on the border of the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes. If you really had Skyrim's best interest at heart, you would stop this rebellion and help take down the real threat.

The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come, with so little. In the darkest days ahead, it will be us Nords who lead the fight against the elves. Skyrim breeds warriors. It's who we are. It's in our blood. It will be Skyrim that leads the charge, mark my words. That time around, mankind will either succeed once and for all, or die trying.

 

[Raijin]

Ulfric Stormcloak General Tullius

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

The Empire I remember never surrendered.

You seemed to when you were ambushed at the beginning of the game.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

Say wha?!?!??!?! And you don't think what the Thalmor are doing by inviting General Tullius and the other Jarls who supports the Empire not part of their political asset? Elenwen doesn't hosts these luxury parties for the wealthy people in Skyrim for nothing. It's all political motivated.

The difference being Ulfric was in contact on his own accord before the war even ended, he willingly resumed communication following his allowed escape from the Thalmor.

 

[Ozan]

You seemed to when you were ambushed at the beginning of the game.

Ulfric had men who were still alive at that point. He wished to save them, Khajiit is sure.

Tullius had none and sought his own safety.

 

[Raijin]

You seemed to when you were ambushed at the beginning of the game.

Ulfric surrendering to the Empire at the beginning of the game did not cost people their right to forfeit their freedom of religion over a treaty. While it did cost 1 Stormcloak Solider his life think of so many who became victims of the Thalmor over the WGC that the Emperor signed. Think of the Talos Worshipers that the Thalmor can now imprison and slaughter thanks to the Empire.

 

[Moris]

The difference being Ulfric was in contact on his own accord before the war even ended, he willingly resumed communication following his allowed escape from the Thalmor.

Can you point to the lore that tells us that Ulfric willingly resumed contact?

The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.
Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

Ulfric had men who were still alive at that point. He wished to save them, Khajiit is sure.

How is this any different from the Empire's situation at the end of the war?

Ulfric surrendering to the Empire at the beginning of the game did not cost people their right to forfeit their freedom of religion over a treaty.

It would've cost his own life and his men, seeing as how execution was certain. How is it okay for Ulfric to submit yet it isn't for the Empire?

While it did cost 1 Stormcloak Solider his life

It would've cost them all if Alduin didn't show up.

 

[Ozan]

Ozan just said Tullius had no men. Just the Legate, but no other soldiers to save.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

Can you point to the lore that tells us that Ulfric willingly resumed contact?

"After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset."
It states that Ulfric was in contact after the war, following his release from the Thalmor. He was in contact until the Markarth Incident, which happened after the war.

The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

This is where contact was broken off, yet it goes to show Ulfric was communicating with the Thalmor for some time after the war.

 

[Moris]

You seemed to when you were ambushed at the beginning of the game.

Not to jump in here, but I do believe Ralof explains this adequately. Ulfric is always deeply concerned about his soldiers. Ralof says, "The Imperials were waiting for us. As pretty an ambush as I ever saw. We were outnumbered five to one, at least. Ulfric ordered us to stop fighting. Didn't want us all to die for nothing, I guess. I thought they were taking us south to Cyrodiil. Parade us in front of the Emperor. But then we stopped in Helgen."

The summary execution of all of the soldiers was likely not something which Ulfric foresaw. Their deaths were uncertain. So he surrendered to give them a chance for life, when otherwise they would certainly have died, given the tremendous odds against them.

 

[Moris]

"After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset."
It states that Ulfric was in contact after the war, following his release from the Thalmor. He was in contact until the Markarth Incident, which happened after the war.


This is where contact was broken off, yet it goes to show Ulfric was communicating with the Thalmor for some time after the war.

It says, "Contact was established."

It does not say it was willing. Or not willing. Or that Ulfric even knew he was talking to Thalmor.

 

[Moris]

Ulfric had men who were still alive at that point. He wished to save them, Khajiit is sure.

Tullius had none and sought his own safety.

Ulfric even gave Rikke the opportunity to leave.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

Ozan just said Tullius had no men. Just the Legate, but no other soldiers to save.

Seeing as how Tulius is but a general and really has very little political power over his respected faction I consider comparing him to Ulfric unfair. Both Ulfric and the Emperor are the leaders of their factions both politically and militarily, and that is why I compare Ulfric and the Emperor rather than Ulfric and Tulius.

 

[Moris]

Seeing as how Tulius is but a general and really has very little political power over his respected faction I consider comparing him to Ulfric unfair. Both Ulfric and the Emperor are the leaders of their factions both politically and militarily, and that is why I compare Ulfric and the Emperor rather than Ulfric and Tulius.

Tullius is the military governor in Skyrim.

Ulfric is not on the same level as the Emperor. The Emperor does not pay taxes to Ulfric. Cyrodiil does not pay taxes to Ulfric. Cyrodiil is not subject to any Skyrim laws.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

It says, "Contact was established."

Yes, as in communication between the two.

It does not say it was willing. Or not willing.

Whether it was willing or not, it states Ulfric proved his worth as an asset and was of use to the Thalmor. And seeing as how contact was established after the war, when Ulfric had escaped, I hardly see how he could unwillingly communicate with them unless he was blackmailed. Likely over the fact he was led to believe the information he gave up was crucial in the taking of the Imperial City.

Or that Ulfric even knew he was talking to Thalmor.

I'm sure he knew who he was talking to seeing as how he broke off communication himself following the Markarth Incident.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

Tullius is the military governor in Skyrim.

Military governors are temporary rulers of territories in times of war. Temporary being the operative word.

Ulfric is not on the same level as the Emperor. The Emperor does not pay taxes to Ulfric. Cyrodiil does not pay taxes to Ulfric. Cyrodiil is not subject to any Skyrim laws.

Taxes or Imperial jurisdiction do not apply to Windhelm, Ulfric has forfeited any representation he has within the Empire and Windhelm is more or less a rogue state.