Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

Sybille Stentor says: "If Ulfric had asked Torygg directly to stand up, to declare independence, Torygg might have done it."

"Might" is very different from "more than likely" and "very keen".

Stentor admits that Ulfric didn't know how much Torygg respected his calls for independence. If Ulfric didn't even know that, it's unlikely that Torygg was leaning heavily toward independence, or it would have been more widely known in the court.

Where else do you get the idea that Torygg "would of [sic] more than likely gone independent" or was "very keen on becoming independent with Ulfric"?

I was mistaken on the wording, thank you for correcting that. Been awhile since I actually picked up Skyrim, I only remember that Sybille Stentor mentioned something on those lines.

My mind is slipping, that is meant to be 'Would have more than likely gone independent.'

 

[Epic Keith]

I was mistaken on the wording, thank you for correcting that. Been awhile since I actually picked up Skyrim, I only remember that Sybille Stentor mentioned something on those lines.

My mind is slipping, that is meant to be 'Would have more than likely gone independent.'

Sybil Stentor says that Torryg thought of independence but he realized Skyrim could not survive on it's own without the support of the empire. We would have food shortages and that the Dominion is a "sleeping beast" Skyrim can't slay alone. She also went on about how he couldn't worship Talos but they could stop tearing up Talos's empire.

Oh here it is

"Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the Imperial army even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Because even if we can't openly worship him, Talos the god was once Tiber Septim the man, and this is his Empire. And Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart."

 

[Jackanapes]

I was mistaken on the wording, thank you for correcting that. Been awhile since I actually picked up Skyrim, I only remember that Sybille Stentor mentioned something on those lines.

My mind is slipping, that is meant to be 'Would have more than likely gone independent.'

Sybil Stentor says that Torryg thought of independence but he realized Skyrim could not survive on it's own without the support of the empire. We would have food shortages and that the Dominion is a "sleeping beast" Skyrim can't slay alone. She also went on about how he couldn't worship Talos but they could stop tearing up Talos's empire.

Oh here it is

"Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the Imperial army even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Because even if we can't openly worship him, Talos the god was once Tiber Septim the man, and this is his Empire. And Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart."

So which is it?

1. Torygg was likely to want independence because he believed it was best for Skyrim to leave the Empire as Ulfric wanted?
2. Torygg was unlikely to want independence because he believed that Skyrim was best off staying part of the Empire?

 

[Epic Keith]

So which is it?

1. Torygg was likely to want independence because he believed it was best for Skyrim?
2. Torygg was unlikely to want independence because he believed that Skyrim was best off staying part of the Empire?

At first he was on to the idea of independence but he realized Skyrim could not survive. So there you have it

 

[DrunkenMage]

So which is it?

1. Torygg was likely to want independence because he believed it was best for Skyrim?
2. Torygg was unlikely to want independence because he believed that Skyrim was best off staying part of the Empire?

Toss of a coin really. He never got a chance to make the decision, everyone thought Ulfric was going to ask him to declare independence when he came to Solitude requesting an audience.

 

[Epic Keith]

Toss of a coin really. He never got a chance to make the decision, everyone thought Ulfric was going to ask him to declare independence when he came to Solitude requesting an audience.

And then he used unrelenting force and split the man into pieces. I found his penis behind Elisif's throne

 

[DrunkenMage]

And then he used unrelenting force and split the man into pieces. I found his penis behind Elisif's throne

Well the only person who claims Ulfric killed the High King with his sword is Ulfric himself, had he simply used the voice it would be murder. Nothing else in the game really backs up Ulfric's claim.

"When Ulfric Stormcloak, with savage Shout, sent me here, my sole regret was fair Elisif, left forlorn and weeping."
"I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?"

- High King Torygg.

You also have a Skyrim loading screen,

The High King of Skyrim, Torygg, was recently killed by Ulfric Stormcloak, who used the ancient power of the Thu'um to nearly shout Torygg to pieces. - Loading Screen

Ulfric says his sword killed the High King, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Ulfric Stormcloak carry an axe?

 

[Jackanapes]

At first he was on to the idea of independence but he realized Skyrim could not survive. So there you have it

So you disagree with DrunkenMage's assertion that Torygg was very likely to want to help Ulfric with Skyrim's independence?

Toss of a coin really. He never got a chance to make the decision, everyone thought Ulfric was going to ask him to declare independence when he came to Solitude requesting an audience.

So it's not really "very likely" any more, but more of a 50-50 sort of proposition? And Stentor even says herself Ulfric probably didn't even know how Torygg felt, so the odds must have seemed even worse to him.

 

[Epic Keith]

So you disagree with DrunkenMage's assertion that Torygg was very likely to want to help Ulfric with Skyrim's independence?


So it's not really "very likely" any more, but more of a 50-50 sort of proposition? And Stentor even says herself Ulfric probably didn't even know how Torygg felt, so the odds must have seemed even worse to him.

DrunkenMage simply made a mistake. I was simply correcting it. It is all very simple. You need more simple explaining?

 

[Jackanapes]

DrunkenMage simply made a mistake. I was simply correcting it. It is all very simple. You need more simple explaining?

Yes, I do. Thank you for offering. When I note what looks like a logical contradiction, I like to look into it to and get to the bottom of things until everything is much clearer, and, yes, even much simpler, if you like to put it that way.

 

[DrunkenMage]

So it's not really "very likely" any more, but more of a 50-50 sort of proposition? And Stentor even says herself Ulfric probably didn't even know how Torygg felt, so the odds must have seemed even worse to him.

I was mistaken on the wording Sybille had used, you already corrected me on that? Unless we're going in circles.

 

[Jackanapes]

I was mistaken on the wording Sybille had used, you already corrected me on that? Unless we're going in circles.

I am just trying to get you to be precise in your wording, something which is important in serious debate.

You agree that you were mistaken on Stentor's wording, but you still maintain that:

My mind is slipping, that is meant to be 'Would have more than likely gone independent.'

But I am not sure yet where you get the impression that Torygg would have "more than likely gone independent". Epic Keith says that Torygg recognized the error, and that he knew it was better for Skyrim to remain part of the Empire, yet you do not say this, and I would like to know exactly why.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I am just trying to get you to be precise in your wording, something which is important in serious debate.

You agree that you were mistaken on Stentor's wording, but you still maintain that:



But I am not sure yet where you get the impression that Torygg would "more than likely gone independent". Epic Keith says that Torygg recognized the error, and that he knew it was better for Skyrim to remain part of the Empire, yet you do not say this, and I would like to know exactly why.

That was to do with the spelling error I had made in the quoted text.

 

[KingNLD]

Reinforcements have arrived!!!



Time to get things straight!

you know this is the true empire a empire of lies!
Ulfric challenge him in to combat he accept he dies that's it.
and so Ulfric is free to go. so that men let him go and get the axe on his head silly.

 

[Epic Keith]

you know this is the true empire a empire of lies!
Ulfric challenge him in to combat he accept he dies that's it.
and so Ulfric is free to go. so that men let him go and get the axe on his head silly.

He is the gate keeper, at the other end of Solitude. He is the only person who claims Ulfric did a duel. How did he know when he was at the other end of Solitude?

 

[Jackanapes]

That was to do with the spelling error I had made in the quoted text.

I was not correcting your spelling. I was asking about the probability of Torygg supporting Ulfric. So far I have seen you say that it was "more than likely", that it was "very likely", and that it was like a "toss of a coin". I would like to ask you which of these propositions you actually believe, and what is your basis for that belief, since Stentor's statement does not support the view that this probability was anything more than some possibility, depending on how you interpret the word "might".

 

[DrunkenMage]

I was not correcting your spelling. I was asking about the probability of Torygg supporting Ulfric. So far I have seen you say that it was "more than likely", that it was "very likely", and that it was like a "toss of a coin". I would like to ask you which of these propositions you actually believe, and what is your basis for that belief, since Stentor's statement does not support the view that this probability was anything more than some possibility, depending on how you interpret the word "might".

Well toss of a coin now I would say, you corrected me on what Stentor had really said. I was mistaken before hand and admit that, so far you have seen me say "Toss of a coin" after correction. So I guess that would provide some basis on this belief, as for the interpretation I guess the dictionary version would be fine. may - can - be able

 

[Jackanapes]

Well toss of a coin now I would say, you corrected me on what Stentor had really said. I was mistaken before hand and admit that, so far you have seen me say "Toss of a coin" after correction. So I guess that would provide some basis on this belief, as for the interpretation I guess the dictionary version would be fine. may - can - be able

So it is a 50-50 proposition at best. And if we accept Stentor's assertion that she didn't think Ulfric knew how much Torygg respected him, this lowers the odds even further in Ulfric's eyes. Therefore, I wish to challenge your statement that:

Tell me, how does killing the man who was very keen on becoming independent with Ulfric, become good intentions? Ulfric wanted war and he wanted blood. Had he truly cared about being independent why not let Torygg do it? He was very interested and had Ulfric simply asked him it's strongly suggested he would have. But Ulfric wouldn't be High King, so don't give us the whole good intentions. If Ulfric had good intentions he wouldn't have started a bloody Civil War.

Because it is not clear to me that Ulfric would have any reason to believe that Torygg would have supported him (Epic Keith gives good reasons to believe he absolutely would not have).

 

[DrunkenMage]

So it is a 50-50 proposition at best. And if we accept Stentor's assertion that she didn't think Ulfric knew how much Torygg respected him, this lowers the odds even further in Ulfric's eyes. Therefore, I wish to challenge your statement that:



Because it is not clear to me that Ulfric would have any reason to believe that Torygg would have supported him (Epic Keith gives good reasons to believe he absolutely would not have).

Did Ulfric have reason to believe Torygg would not support him?

 

[Jackanapes]

Did Ulfric have reason to believe Torygg would not support him?

Torygg was loyal to the Empire and always had been. Also his counselors, including Stentor herself, clearly feel that remaining part of the Empire is the wisest choice. One could suppose they would not hesitate to voice that belief.

Edited

Also a leader who is known for giving long, boring speeches in which he "always talks about Empire this and Empire that" is unlikely to be seriously considering supporting a move against the Empire, unless his heart really is secretly very seditious, a claim which I have never seen advanced against him by anyone.