Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Rimfaxe96]

I see your signature...

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Talos_Mistake

May we find centuries of peace and prosperity with our new Thalmor friends

This line always makes me laugh the most.


http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Thalmor_Mistake

There, fixed it right up.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Back onto the topic at hand.

Galmar: "When we've reclaimed our homeland from the Imperials, we'll take the fight to the Thalmor. They are the true enemy. Make no mistake."

Galmar and Ulfric are going to get many Nords killed in their suicide mission of taking their army to the Dominion.

"But you're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambitions." - General Tullius

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Back onto the topic at hand.

Galmar: "When we've reclaimed our homeland from the Imperials, we'll take the fight to the Thalmor. They are the true enemy. Make no mistake."

Galmar and Ulfric are going to get many Nords killed in their suicide mission of taking their army to the Dominion.

"But you're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambitions." - General Tullius

Yush.

They could do some damage to the Dominion if Ulfrics' Stormcloak army would attack along with the Legion, but alone? They'd merely decrease the Dominion's army a bit, little more. And they'd never even reach Alinor or get close to it, so I assume the Dominion would merely loose a few footsoldiers. Their most powerful battlemages are probably in Alinor though, or at least Runil made me think so.
In the meantime Ulfric would sacrifice a good part of the Empire's strength with so many Nord lives wasted. After all the people who stopped the Aldmeri Army to escape at the Battle of the Red Ring were Nords, being described as "unbreakable" if I remember correctly.
The Empire needs the Nords with their meat-shield abilities.

 

[The Laoch]

Hey if the Stormcloaks attack the AD, that leaves Valenwood and Elsweyr for easy pickings, since the Thalmor will fall back to the Isles to defend their homeland. Or least I hope.

And didn't the Knights of the Nine DLC in Oblivion pretty much prove that Talos is a God? He gives you the blessing to pretty much beat the DLC.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Hey if the Stormcloaks attack the AD, that leaves Valenwood and Elsweyr for easy pickings, since the Thalmor will fall back to the Isles to defend their homeland. Or least I hope.

And didn't the Knights of the Nine DLC in Oblivion pretty much prove that Talos is a God? He gives you the blessing to pretty much beat the DLC.

There's no need for them to fall back for Alinor's protection. The greatest protection Summerset Isle has is the sea that surrounds it. If I remember the lore correctly Altmer are pretty advanced when it comes to Naval Warfare and even more so when fighting on their own shores. Plus, the main road for their army runs through Valenwood, so they'll sooner let go of Elsweyr than that. Elsweyr too has naturally harsh climate, and is therefore harder to take; I think the Khajiit won't need much direct support of the Altmer to keep it safe.
Moving an army into Valenwood's hard enough, most of it is, well, wood, and the Bosmer have clear advantages since they know their territory and can move more swiftly through the landscape.
These 3 provinces are really hard to get, which make Tiber Septim's union of them all even more impressive. Though, for Summerset Isles even he used the Numidium.
But since most of the Legion is waiting at the border of the Aldmeri Dominion, I'm pretty sure most of the coming war will play around Northern Valenwood/Southern Cyrodiil.

Talos is a God, but the Thalmor are either bitter about his victory because it shook the Altmers' self-confidence of being the best etc to its very foundation and caused some trouble (similar to Skyrim in TES:V). Or, if the Insect-Jar-Theory should turn out to be true, they need to get him removed in order to loosen his Divine power and therefore connection to humanity.

 

[The Laoch]

The Empire could always burn Valenwood Down.

Of course that would hurt the Empire's relationship with the Bosmer for about Forever.

And I thought in the Elder Scrolls Novel they said Elsweyr is Desert and grasslands like the great plains of America. So i find attacking not to be that hard. The grassland can be done by normal legions and get some Redguards for the desert part.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

Rimfaxe96 said: They could do some damage to the Dominion if Ulfrics' Stormcloak army would attack along with the Legion, but alone? They'd merely decrease the Dominion's army a bit, little more.

Agreed. That would likely be the outcome of the first attack. The Stormcloak invading army would be slaughtered you would think. However, despite the Stormcloak's outcast status back in Skyrim, the Dominion are not the Empire, who has done a lot for the citizens of Skyrim. I honestly believe that once word reached Skyrim of the Stormcloak's slaughter in Summerset Isle, it would light a fire in the Nord people not seen since the days of the legendary Ysgramor. Nords who previously remained neutral wouldn't be able to resist the call to war. It's simply not in a Nord's genes to remain indifferent when his/her countrymen lay broken and bleeding in a foreign land. Even Nords loyal to the Empire would feel a pull or urge if you will, to finally lay waste to the Elven hordes that have threatened their society since the beginning of recorded history. I don't like Ulfric Stormcloak, he isn't very smart in my opinion but can you imagine the political implications if he did invade and become a martyr? It would be the masterstroke he's been looking for his whole life. Remembering the bitterness between the Nord people and Elves runs thickest in the province of Skyrim, I believe his death would be welcomed by some but even so, he is still a brother, with all his flaws, he is still a Nord. Skyrim might very well go to war. Don't forget the story of the 300 Spartans, the Persians awoke a sleeping giant, I believe Ulfric has the power to do the same. Although, I fear he is far too cowardly. If Skyrim wanted war that much, the Empire would surely heed the call, after all, they are waiting only for the right opportunity, what better opportunity than thousands of angry Nords full of hatred of the Thalmor, what soldiers they would make.

 

[Dagmar]

Don't forget the story of the 300 Spartans, the Persians awoke a sleeping giant

All joking aside, the story of the 300 was exactly that, a story. The Athenians had already been preparing for a second Persian invasions by Xerxes after his father's previous attempt to conquer Greece. They built a large navy and formed an alliance of the city-states to create an army to defend against Xerxes forces long before the Battle of Thermopylae. The fact of the matter is that, after the battle, the Persian armies went on to invade and occupy most of Greece during the first year of the war. It was the foresight of the Athenians in building the Greek Navy and the incontestable superiority of Greek hoplite warfare strategy on high ground and narrow passes which defeated the second Persian invasion of Greece. While historically inspirational, the Battle of Thermopylae was of minor consequence to the outcome of the war. If that's all that the Stormcloaks can aspire to in terms of contributing to a war against the Aldmeri Dominion that's setting the bar pretty low. At the end of the day a battle that "makes for a great song" doesn't win wars. Preparation and superior strategy does.

 

[Lilpack]

It aint right what the Imperial folk be doing young, I mean I understand that war is war but those terms weren't just. Y'all can't expect them Nords to just lay down an take it. I mean I aint even like that Ulfic guy I mean he done some scheista stuff nah mean but I think we gotta move into an age of independence once them Thalmor gone. Nah mean.

 

[Raijin]

Back onto the topic at hand.

Galmar and Ulfric are going to get many Nords killed in their suicide mission of taking their army to the Dominion.

"But you're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambitions." - General Tullius

Ulfric and Emperor Titus Mede II seems to have something in common. I guess both parties are just as guilty for willing to sacrifice thousands for their own selfish ambition according to Tullius

Wasn't it Mede II undoing when he essentially told the Thalmor to piss off when they offered him an ultimatum? You know ban Talos worshiping and the detachments of the Blades? Of course Mede II had to show just how macho he truly is, and rejected the ultimatum while his Generals pleaded him to reconsider because the Empire was not healthy enough to sustain a war at the time. The Thalmor was insulted by Titus and raided the city. While he did captured the Thalmor General at the end it accomplished nothing. The Thalmor still got what they wanted... White-Gold Concordat.

If Ulfric has blood on his hands, as General Tullius suggested, then he also has blood on his... since he is an Empire Representative.

 

[Lilpack]

Wasn't it Mede II undoing when he essentially told the Thalmor to piss off when they offered him an ultimatum? You know ban Talos worshiping and the detachments of the Blades? Of course Mede II had to show just how macho he truly is, and rejected the ultimatum while his Generals pleaded him to reconsider because the Empire was not healthy enough to sustain a war at the time. The Thalmor was insulted by Titus and raided the city. While he did captured the Thalmor General at the end it accomplished nothing. The Thalmor still got what they wanted... White-Gold Concordat.

I don't understand you bruh, say he agreed to the terms before the actual war and now you had the Dominion all up in the Empire with their full strength with full authority to crack down on worshipping Talos. Sometimes you gotta understand sacrifice for the greater good nah mean, you dont sacrifice knowing you'l lwin and errything will come out breezy. You sacrifice to give someone a chance bruh. Yeah a lot of people died before the end but aint no honor to be had surrendering before the fight.

Meanwhile ulfric is getting killed for his glory mission, his entire campaign is about getting that throne. even the player character himself who was supposedly innocent was about to get executed and Ulfric and his boys were about to let you die for them. Thats scheista bruh.

~Lilpack

 

[Raijin]

Wasn't it Mede II undoing when he essentially told the Thalmor to piss off when they offered him an ultimatum? You know ban Talos worshiping and the detachments of the Blades? Of course Mede II had to show just how macho he truly is, and rejected the ultimatum while his Generals pleaded him to reconsider because the Empire was not healthy enough to sustain a war at the time. The Thalmor was insulted by Titus and raided the city. While he did captured the Thalmor General at the end it accomplished nothing. The Thalmor still got what they wanted... White-Gold Concordat.

I don't understand you bruh, say he agreed to the terms before the actual war and now you had the Dominion all up in the Empire with their full strength with full authority to crack down on worshipping Talos. Sometimes you gotta understand sacrifice for the greater good nah mean, you dont sacrifice knowing you'l lwin and errything will come out breezy. You sacrifice to give someone a chance bruh. Yeah a lot of people died before the end but aint no honor to be had surrendering before the fight.

Meanwhile ulfric is getting killed for his glory mission, his entire campaign is about getting that throne. even the player character himself who was supposedly innocent was about to get executed and Ulfric and his boys were about to let you die for them. Thats scheista bruh.

~Lilpack

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Great_War_(book)

When Titus Mede II ascended the throne in 4E 168, he inherited a weakened empire. The glory days of the Septims were a distant memory. Valenwood and Elsweyr were gone, ceded to the Thalmor enemy. Black Marsh had been lost to Imperial rule since the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis. Morrowind had never recovered fully from the eruption of Mount Vvardenfell. Hammerfell was plagued by infighting between Crowns and Forebears. Only High Rock, Cyrodiil and Skyrim remained prosperous and peaceful.

Emperor Titus Mede had only a few short years to consolidate his rule before his leadership was put to the ultimate test.

The War Begins

On the 30th of Frostfall, 4E 171, the Aldmeri Dominion sent an ambassador to the Imperial City with a gift in a covered cart and an ultimatum for the new Emperor. The long list of demands included staggering tributes, disbandment of the Blades, outlawing the worship of Talos, and ceding large sections of Hammerfell to the Dominion. Despite the warnings of his generals of the Empire's military weakness, Emperor Titus Mede II rejected the ultimatum. The Thalmor ambassador upended the cart, spilling over a hundred heads on the floor: every Blades agent in Summerset and Valenwood. And so began the Great War which would consume the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion for the next five years.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:White-Gold_Concordat

The White-Gold Concordat was a treaty signed in 4E 175 between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion that ended the Great War. The conditions of the treaty outlawed the worship of Talos in the Empire, formally disbanded the Blades, and delivered a large portion of southern Hammerfell into the control of the Aldmeri Dominion. Emperor Titus Mede II made these concessions to the Thalmor hierarchy in order to give the Imperial Legion time to recover its strength, as it had been decimated in the Battle of the Red Ring.

Do you understand it now? When General Tullius quotes "But you're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambitions." to reference Ulfric Stormcloak is outrageously pathetic knowing full well that his Empire is far more guilty for causing the deaths of thousands than the Stormcloaks.

Emperor Titus Mede II is a blood thirsty warmongering fool. At least Ulfric has a valid reason for his cause. What was Titus excuse when he essentially gave the Thalmor his middle finger that prompted the Great War to erupted?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Back onto the topic at hand.

Galmar and Ulfric are going to get many Nords killed in their suicide mission of taking their army to the Dominion.

"But you're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambitions." - General Tullius

Ulfric and Emperor Titus Mede II seems to have something in common. I guess both parties are just as guilty for willing to sacrifice thousands for their own selfish ambition according to Tullius

Wasn't it Mede II undoing when he essentially told the Thalmor to piss off when they offered him an ultimatum? You know ban Talos worshiping and the detachments of the Blades? Of course Mede II had to show just how macho he truly is, and rejected the ultimatum while his Generals pleaded him to reconsider because the Empire was not healthy enough to sustain a war at the time. The Thalmor was insulted by Titus and raided the city. While he did captured the Thalmor General at the end it accomplished nothing. The Thalmor still got what they wanted... White-Gold Concordat.

If Ulfric has blood on his hands, as General Tullius suggested, then he also has blood on his... since he is an Empire Representative.

Titus Mede II wasn't being selfish, his actions throughout the war and the fact he went for peace instead of taking the remnants of the Legions on a suicide death run into the heart of Elsweyr and Valenwood and then onto Summertset Isles.

Titus II wasn't showing off how "macho" he was, he fought because the Empire would be destroyed. The Emperor's Generals never pleaded anything, you're adding head canon.

Despite the warnings of his generals of the Empire's military weakness, Emperor Titus Mede II rejected the ultimatum.

Also there was a reason the Ultimatum was rejected.

No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price.

Though this is an interesting stance for you, condemn the Empire for fighting the Aldmeri Dominion instead of laying down to them. Like you would of been an Empire supporter then? If they had just laid down and let the Thalmor in without a fight. I'm completely sure you would be picking up the banner of the Empire then...

The Thalmor were insulted and "raided the city" ? I would hardly call four years of warfare as being raided.

Also for twenty six years the White-Gold Concordat has been in effect without much incident. Only until Ulfric Stormcloak which is a Thalmor asset allowed them to enforce the treaty to extreme. No one paid attention to the Talos Ban, they all still worshiped Talos without problems, people secretly worshiping were quite safe under the Empire. Since the Thalmor can't touch an Imperial citizen without evidence.

"We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down." - Alvor

"Ulfric founded the Stormcloaks years ago, as a sort of private army to advance his ambitions. He's always used the ban on the worship of Talos to stir people up against the Empire. He never succeeded in getting much support..." - Hadvar

They do most of the other stuff in secret away from the Empire. Take a look at the head of the Thalmor Justiciars, he can't even arrest one Nord in Markarth because the Jarl won't call for his arrest without evidence.

The difference between Titus Mede II and Ulfric Stormcloak. Titus has more honor, Titus fought for his people, not just himself or for the throne. If the Emperor cared so much about his throne he would of agreed to the ultimatum. Titus II accepted the treaty just like High Rock did and Skyrim did. Skyrim's great respected High King accepted it and Ulfric did not even dare make a move against him. Not until after his death did Ulfric finally challenge the man's son.

So tell me, who is the true coward? The one who kills innocents to force the Empire to allow Ulfric and his men worship during the Markarth Incident. The one who doesn't dare face an aging High King but instead fights his son who has barely any fighting skills. Not that it mattered since Ulfric used the Thu'um.

Before going on about how Tullius surrendered, you had to win the Civil War to get Tullius to surrender. Ulfric surrendered without a fight to Tullius or are you forgetting this...

"Ulfric rode right into our ambush with only a few bodyguards. He surrendered pretty meekly, too. So much for his death-or-glory reputation." - Hadvar

 

[Raijin]

Before going on about how Tullius surrendered, you had to win the Civil War to get Tullius to surrender. Ulfric surrendered without a fight to Tullius or are you forgetting this...

"Ulfric rode right into our ambush with only a few bodyguards. He surrendered pretty meekly, too. So much for his death-or-glory reputation." - Hadvar

I could never truly understand what was the big deal of Ulfric surrendering to the Imperial Legion. What is Ulfric suppose to do as he was surrounded by Imperial soldiers with very few of his own men standing by his side? Suicide by Imperial legion? I find it quite honorable for a man to acknowledge his defeat, and knowing his limitations.

It takes a real man to admit to defeat.

Ulfric Stormcloak (15+) rep points from me.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Before going on about how Tullius surrendered, you had to win the Civil War to get Tullius to surrender. Ulfric surrendered without a fight to Tullius or are you forgetting this...

"Ulfric rode right into our ambush with only a few bodyguards. He surrendered pretty meekly, too. So much for his death-or-glory reputation." - Hadvar

I could never truly understand what was the big deal of Ulfric surrendering to the Imperial Legion. What is Ulfric suppose to do as he was surrounded by Imperial soldiers with very few of his own men standing by his side? Suicide by Imperial legion? I find it quite honorable for a man to acknowledge his defeat, and knowing his limitations.

It takes a real man to admit to defeat.

Ulfric Stormcloak (15+) rep points from me.

You condemn Tullius when he admits defeat but absolve Ulfric? You have serious contradictions.

 

[The Laoch]

Something i always seem to forget is the disbanding of the Blades. It's funny, I liked the Blades in Oblivion but in Skyrim i just abhor Esbern and Delphine. I felt like losing the blades wasn't a big deal for me, since if Esbern and Delphine were in it the blades must of been bad.

 

[Raijin]

You condemn Tullius when he admits defeat but absolve Ulfric? You have serious contradictions.

So do you Besides Tullius showed no mercy for Ulfric back there in Helgan so why should Ulfric give him mercy in Castle Dour? In fact the Imperial Legion refuse to give Ulfric a fair trail... to allow him to prove his innocence. (Guilty until proven innocence, right?) They were wanting to "silence him" at all cost.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You condemn Tullius when he admits defeat but absolve Ulfric? You have serious contradictions.

So do you Besides Tullius showed no mercy for Ulfric back there in Helgan so why should Ulfric give him mercy in Castle Dour? In fact the Imperial Legion refuse to give Ulfric a fair trail... to allow him to prove his innocence. (Guilty until proven innocence, right?) They were wanting to "silence him" at all cost.

Skyrim has been a part of the Empire for a very long time. Yet they have not accepted trials. Violence is standard and accepted in Nordic culture. Had Ulfric even been given a trial, Stormcloaks would hardly call it fair.

 

[Raijin]

You condemn Tullius when he admits defeat but absolve Ulfric? You have serious contradictions.

So do you Besides Tullius showed no mercy for Ulfric back there in Helgan so why should Ulfric give him mercy in Castle Dour? In fact the Imperial Legion refuse to give Ulfric a fair trail... to allow him to prove his innocence. (Guilty until proven innocence, right?) They were wanting to "silence him" at all cost.

Skyrim has been a part of the Empire for a very long time. Yet they have not accepted trials. Violence is standard and accepted in Nordic culture. Had Ulfric even been given a trial, Stormcloaks would hardly call it fair.

The fact is the Empire refused to give Ulfric a fair trial... to allow himself to prove himself to be innocent. It shows just how brutal the Empire truly is... and how they should no longer have control over Skyrim.

 

[DrunkenMage]

So do you Besides Tullius showed no mercy for Ulfric back there in Helgan so why should Ulfric give him mercy in Castle Dour? In fact the Imperial Legion refuse to give Ulfric a fair trail... to allow him to prove his innocence. (Guilty until proven innocence, right?) They were wanting to "silence him" at all cost.

Skyrim has been a part of the Empire for a very long time. Yet they have not accepted trials. Violence is standard and accepted in Nordic culture. Had Ulfric even been given a trial, Stormcloaks would hardly call it fair.

The fact is the Empire refused to give Ulfric a fair trial... to allow himself to prove himself to be innocent. It shows just how brutal the Empire truly is... and how they should no longer have control over Skyrim.

You think Ulfric gave the people of Markarth a "Fair trial" before executing them for not fighting with him to force the Empire to agree to Ulfric's terms before allowing them entry.