Spoiler Would you consider Ulfric evil?

[The Legendary Werebear]

This is something I've been thinking about lately, I love how in the beginning they make you think the Empire are the bad guys but when you dig some stuff up by playing for a while it feels like Ulfric is the one who is bad and the Empire is the one who is trying to keep peace. I know alot of people say the Empire is a puppet of the Thalmor but at the end of the Civil War General Tullius says something about betraying the Thalmor and wiping them out. What do you guys think of this? Is Skyrim better off with Stormcloak rule or under the Empire?

 

[Neriad13]

I have yet to come up with a solid answer to that one yet. With the Septims gone, I do believe that it is time for the Empire to let go of Skyrim, but I don't think that Ulfric is the right man for the job. It's such a heart-rending conundrum and so well-written - much like modern day wars.

 

[LiL KiNG]

Ulfric's speech he can be heard giving in his palace "I fight so..." sounds great, though his second in command is a bastard.
My biggest beef with Ulfric is his imprisoning the Jarl of Whiterun, messed up children or not I like the guy. Neither side is all the great honestly, and it's a hard call. It is written in such a way though that no matter who you side with, it will hurt the Thalmor in the end which is the important thing here because those snotty elves need to go.
I will say I have yet to see any stormcloaks escorting a prisoner through the wilderness yet. I've seen the Thalmor with their prisoners, and I've seen a lot of imperial guards with prisoners, but not so with the cloaks - maybe they just don't 'take' prisoners?
Some good stuff comes out of Markarth too, you find out Ulfric's militia was promised things for their help and later betrayed by the empire.

 

[JoeReese]

I have found good and bad in both sides. On one hand, Ulfric could be a hero for trying to keep his homeland under its own rule. On the other, he could be a criminal for going against Imperial rule. Even the idea of him murdering the high king, or simply challenging him to a perfectly legitimate duel, is written in such a way that you can never really be sure which was which. As Neriad says, it seems to mirror actual wars...where both sides believe they are right, and can show enough of the enemy's skeletons to make you think they may be.

In the end, I think the idea was to make it a difficult choice, with lingering self-doubt after the fact. "Did I do the right thing?" Did I just put everyone under the thumb of a megalomaniac, or did I just seal the fate of everyone in Skyrim to forever be the empire's fodder?

I wound up siding with the empire because I had to choose somebody, and Whiterun was my home...not to mention because I knew I could just reload from a save if I didn't like the outcome. I wonder, sometimes, whether I should have gone for the Stormcloaks. Maybe next build.

 

[Nuitari]

Ulfric is evil he's just stupid and arrogant. Yes the Empire is not what it once was, yes the Septims are gone but that doesn't mean that the only way to bring unity to Skyrim is for a long and pointless war. Ulfric Stormcloak is really fighting for one thing, and that is Ulfric Stormcloak. He preaches his loyalty to the so called "god" Talos yet does he forget that it is the Empire of Tiber Septim that he seeks to bring about. I mean at the very beginning of the game we find out that Ulfric murdered the High King of Skyrim in what was officially a fair fight but we all know that the boy king didn't stand a chance. And if we go to Solitude and question the late king's wife we find out that he was considering siding with Ulfric in this and was attempting to go about making Skyrim it's own country ruled not by the Empire but by its own people. Really Ulfric can not be considered evil only arrogant, stupid, angry, dull-witted, selfish and brutish and the future of any country should not be placed in the hands of one such as him.

 

[Crooksin]

Ulfric isn't evil, only greedy. He's doing the right thing but only so he can have the most power. He truly doesn't give a plops, I don't think, just trying to take an opportunity to rule.

Imo, he's stupid. The Imperial may be forcefully taking over his homeland but I say the much bigger threat is the Thalmor. At least the Empire bring stability and order with them, the Thalmor brings dictatorship and death. He should put away his silly rebellion, at least for a while, and try to stop the Thalmor. I bet if the Empire weren't so stretched thin dealing with the Stormcloaks, they wouldn't be so compelled to listen to the Thalmor.

(I'm going to say right now I'm not a lore expert so forgive me for being wrong, I know some of you get mad about lore mistakes =P)

 

[Carlos3lance]

Ulfric only cares about Ulfric. A lot of people around Skyrim are saying it, a lot of them being nords.

The answer to the question, do you consider Ulfric evil. I consider him to be a textbook politician operating like a thug. The banning of Talos worship is a cause that can rally people and support, and he effectively uses that to seize power, with no regard to honor, tolerance(the very core of what he fights for) and thus other races. There is nothing good or noble about his intentions.

I consider most politicians and political campaigns evil at the core, so yes. Ulfric needs to be run through and his naked looted corpse shouted at repeatedly in a mid-sized empty room with a vivacious fus do rah

 

[mamali]

skyrim will live under peace with imperials , biggest problem with stormcloacks is they are racists and skyrim is a land with many different races so under the rule of stormcloacks there will be war all time

 

[Raijin]

Ulfric is evil he's just stupid and arrogant. Yes the Empire is not what it once was, yes the Septims are gone but that doesn't mean that the only way to bring unity to Skyrim is for a long and pointless war. Ulfric Stormcloak is really fighting for one thing, and that is Ulfric Stormcloak. He preaches his loyalty to the so called "god" Talos yet does he forget that it is the Empire of Tiber Septim that he seeks to bring about. I mean at the very beginning of the game we find out that Ulfric murdered the High King of Skyrim in what was officially a fair fight but we all know that the boy king didn't stand a chance. And if we go to Solitude and question the late king's wife we find out that he was considering siding with Ulfric in this and was attempting to go about making Skyrim it's own country ruled not by the Empire but by its own people. Really Ulfric can not be considered evil only arrogant, stupid, angry, dull-witted, selfish and brutish and the future of any country should not be placed in the hands of one such as him.

Aye! Do you even know what you're talking about here? So tell me ask you something was it arrogant, stupid, angry, dull-witted, selfish and brutish for Hammerfell to force the empire to give them Independence after the empire surrendered to their elven masters? Let me show you the lore aspects of what happen: Lore:Hammerfell - UESPWiki

After the Oblivion Crisis, Hammerfell remained a part of the Empire during the Stormcrown Interregnum, which ended when Titus Mede seized the Imperial City and was proclaimed Emperor. During the Great War against the Thalmor-led Aldmeri Dominion, Hammerfell fought with the rest of the Empire, and was invaded by the Thalmor forces. When the war ended, Emperor Titus Mede II ceded a portion of southern Hammerfell to the Dominion and outlawed worship of Talos throughout the Empire. The Redguards, outraged, continued to defy the White-Gold Concordat, forcing Titus Mede II to release Hammerfell as its own, independent state.

The Redguards eventually forced a stalemate with the Dominion, leading to Aldmeri forces withdrawing completely from Hammerfell.

Yes Ulfric is fighting to restore the freedom to worship Talos without having his people be imprisoned by the Thalmor authority to which the Empire gave permission to since the treaty was signed. I guess Titus Mede forgot that Tiber Septim founded the empire, and now he agrees with the elves.Hes a disgrace to the empire, and because of it Titus Mede is losing provinces.

Ulfric did not murdered the high king. He challenge him to a duel , and Torygg accepted the match. Please don't even try to picture Torygg as this 12 years old boy when in fact he was a MAN. Didn't you see him in Sovngarde when you faced Alduin? Did he look like a boy to you?

Another thing to re-considerate is if High King Torygg sided with Ulfric, which he would've never do in the first place, he would then be guilty of high treason against the empire therefor he could be forcefully removed by imperial law, and later be sentenced to death for his crimes. I'm not sure he was willing to take that risk. In the eyes of imperial law Ulfric is guilty of high treason and insurrection. Not entirely sure Torygg wants to be hanging out with a high criminal.

 

[Docta Corvina]

I know I may shock a lot of Stormcloak-siders who have seen me around, but I have to admit that I personally wouldn't truly consider Ulfric "evil". At least not yet. I think he's egomaniacal, as evidenced by his own dialogue throughout the game, as well as his actions. I'm not prepared to say that makes him evil - just human. I personally found his actions against Torygg repugnant in the sense that they smacked of political calculation and self-gain. It really was all about the optics.

At the end of the day, he's a Great War veteran with a bone to pick. I can understand his attitude toward many things, not least of all because some of my own characters in my ongoing story have similar grievances. His experience with the Thalmor should tell him that engagement with the Empire is bad for everyone really, as it's all part of a proxy war waged by the Dominion and its agents. And when it all boils down, the true enemy is indeed the Dominion. But it's evident to me that he's motivated by ends perhaps partly patriotic but most certainly selfish as well. He's got the proverbial blinders on, consciously or unconsciously. And that's one reason why I'll likely never be able to side with him in this game.

 

[Malignanttoe]

Not evil, just misguided.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Good and Evil is a point of view. True evil is those who do terrible things which they think are good. Is Ulfric evil? No. Do I support him and the Stormcloaks? No.

Ulfric's cause is a good one but misguided, how would Skyrim rule itself if one man can kill another and claim their title, the strong and arrogant will rule over the smart and weak, if a Bandit chief can simply walk into a Jarl's longhouse and challenge them to a duel in the old way they'd have to accept and the title will be passed onto the victor. How many Jarls and Kings will change hands during Ulfrics reign and after his reign, that anyone with a sword can simply challenge the ruler of Skyrim and claim the throne. With Imperial rule that cannot happen.

Yes the Empire surrendered and that so shocked the nords saying "When the Empire surrendered they shamed us all" The Empire didn't simply roll over they took the Thalmor head on and took the war to a stand still, their capital in flames they could not continue the war without protecting those within their border from bandits and beasts, you do not fight a war if you can't maintain the supply lines due to having to leave men behind to guard cities and roads, they wouldn't have much of an army for the front lines, the Empire signed a PEACE TREATY they didn't simply lay down their weapons, the Thalmor are more talk than bite with "The Empire lives because we allow it" they got heavy losses in the war same with the Empire.

Hammerfell fought off the Thalmor why can't the Empire? Hammerfell fought off the Thalmor in their home land, terrain they have fought and lived in for hundreds of years, The Thalmor would still need supplies to maintain it's hold in Hammerfell and Redguards are tough mofo's, but you fight even harder when you're defending/retaking your home. The Empire would have to take the fight TO THE THALMOR they'd have to march onwards and take the fight to their homeland, well that is a little hard to do with less than half strength, the Empire isn't as weak anymore they have had quite sometime to rebuild their Military, the Civil War in skyrim is only being handled by the IV Legion under the command of General Tullius and he isn't being given reinforcements so I'd say he's doing one hell of a job considering he CAPTURED Ulfric the great man who is fighting the Empire because they "Surrendered" to the Thalmor, well he surrendered to the Empire when he was captured, only lived because of a Dragon popped up.

And that Talos thing being such a big deal, the Nords use to hate Tiber Septim and fought against him it wasn't until he defeated them that they betrayed the Bretons and joined Tiber Septim.

I think what the Emperor did was smart, what would you do if you had less than half your strength, your capital burning and to keep fighting you'd have to march out of your own lands into the heart of the enemy. The Empire didn't even enforce the Talos ban they didn't even care about it, they sent gold to the Jarls of Skyrim to keep it quiet for awhile, but smart Ulfric decided he'd stir up trouble MAKING the Thalmor step in, The Empire couldn't simply attack the Thalmor with Ulfric messing around, he killed the High King of Skyrim then ran like a bat out of hell out of Solitude.

 

[Jeremius]

A crazed warmonger angry at the empire for tossing him aside, maybe, but not evil. Do not consider the empire Evil either. Both are neutral and as such, not worthy of attention.

 

[Dagmar]

Aye! Do you even know what you're talking about here? So tell me ask you something was it arrogant, stupid, angry, dull-witted, selfish and brutish for Hammerfell to force the empire to give them Independence after the empire surrendered to their elven masters? Let me show you the lore aspects of what happen: Lore:Hammerfell - UESPWiki

Hammerfell didn't fight for independence from the Empire. The Empire disowned Hammerfell. Most importanly, Hammerfell was of one mind when it decided to to defy the White-Gold Concordat while Skyrim is absolutely not. When people make the comparison between Hammerfell and Skyrim they simply don't realize how unanalogous the comparison is. The Redguard resistance was fighting against an invading occupying force with overwhelming support from the native population. The Stormcloaks are fighting against the government of Skyrim and the Empire that has been in place for over half a millenium which includes an Imperial Legion that is constituted largely from the native Nords of Skyrim and the Stormcloaks lack even a majprity of the native populations support. It's comparing apples with oranges and any argument advocating for support of the Stormcloaks by comparing them to the Redguard resistance is a losing one.

Ulfric is clearly motivated by self-interest when he instigates the civil war. His actions are colored by his biases against the Empire which are understandable based on his personal experience and interaction with the Empire but that doesn't make them any less self-interested. He may sincerely believe he is the only man for the role to gain independence for Skyrim and that it's in the realms best interest but that's often the case with leaders of a movement. Narcissism and egomania are all too common traits among military leaders be it Ulfric or Napoleon Bonaparte. He has the blood of thousands of innocents on his hands, a fact which doesn't escape him when he has no words to answer Legate Rikke's words challenging the wisdom of his actions before her death (if you choose to pursue the Stormcloak quest line). That doesn't make him an evil man, but it undeniably makes him a porously flawed one.

What brands him as evil though are the unrefuted allegations of his conduct after retaking Markarth from the Forsworn. The killing of unarmed non-combatants including adolescents is absolutley inexcusable and vile. The developers had an opportunity to portray Ulfric more sympathetically by giving a different side to the story where the actions could have happened without his authorization and with his remorse over the fact that it happened under his command but they elected not to do so. Still if a player wants to perceive him as less repugnant they're always free to RP some non-existent content to that effect so their character can regard him as less than evil. That's what I did the one time I allied with the Stormcloaks.

 

[Raijin]

I'm going to pull a Docta Corvina by saying that this may also shock a lot of the imperial supporters here, but I do not think that the empire is evil as a staunch Stormcloak supporter. Both parties are actually on the good side. It's truly unfortunate that both sides have to fight against each other, but I guess it's necessary when it comes down to ruling Skyrim and knowing whats best for the country.

Lets get down to the transcript of Battle to solitude and battle to windhelm

Transcript was taken off of Skyrim:Ulfric Stormcloak - UESPWiki

Lets first start by reading Battle for solitude:

Ulfric: "Secure the door."
Galmar: "Already done."
Rikke: "Ulfric. Stop."
Ulfric: "Stop what? Taking Skyrim back from those who'd leave her to rot?"
Rikke: "You're wrong. Ulfric. We need the Empire. Without it Skyrim will assuredly fall to the Dominion."
Galmar: "You were there with us. You saw it. The day the Empire signed that damn treaty was the day the Empire died."
Ulfric: "The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion."
'Rikke: "You're a damn fool."
Galmar: "Stand aside woman. We've come for the General."
Rikke: "He has given up. But I have not." (Why does the Empire give up so easy under pressure?)
Ulfric: "Rikke. Go. You're free to leave."
Rikke: "I'm also free to stay and fight for what I believe in." (Why didn't the empire promote her as General???)
Ulfric: "You're also free to die for it."
Rikke: "This is what you wanted? Shield brothers and sisters killing each other? Families torn apart? This is the Skyrim you want?!"
Galmar: "Damnit woman, stand aside."
Rikke: "That's not the Skyrim I want to live in."
Ulfric: "Rikke. You don't have to do this."
Rikke: "You've left me no choice... Talos preserve us."

Both Rikke and Tullius will engage in combat. Once Rikke is defeated, Tullius will surrender himself:

Ulfric: "This is it for you. Any last words before I send you to Oblivion?"
Tullius: "You realize this is exactly what they wanted."
Galmar: "What who wanted?"
Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."
Ulfric: "It's a little more than a rebellion, don't you think?"
Galmar: "Heh."
Tullius: "We aren't the bad guys you know." (Hes right, the empire nor the Stormcloaks are the bad guys)
Ulfric: "Maybe not, but you certainly aren't the good guys."
Tullius: "Perhaps you're right. But then what does that make you?"
Ulfric: "You just said it yourself."
Galmar: "It makes us right."
Tullius: "And if I surrender?" (Just like your emperor surrendered to the A.D how pathetic!)
Ulfric: "The Empire I remember never surrendered."
Galmar: "That Empire is dead. And so are you."
Tullius: "So be it."
Galmar: "Just kill him and let's be done with it already."
Ulfric: "Come, Galmar. Where's your sense of the dramatic moment?"
Galmar: "By the gods! If it's a good ending to some damn story you're after - perhaps the Dragonborn should be the one to do it."
Ulfric: "Good point."

Now lets head on over to Battle for windhelm:

Tullius

: "Secure the door.

Rikke: "Already done, sir."
Tullius: "Ulfric Stormcloak! You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, the assassination of King Torygg, and high treason against the Empire. It's over."
Galmar: "Not while I'm still breathing, it's not."
Rikke: "Step aside Galmar. We're here to accept Ulfric's surrender."
Ulfric: "I'll never surrender Skyrim into the hands of a corrupt and dying Empire."
Rikke: "Skyrim doesn't belong to you, Ulfric."
Ulfric: "No... But I belong to her."
Tullius: "Enough! You are traitors and will die traitors' deaths. Stand down and face public execution, or advance and face summary execution by my hands. It matters little to me. Either way I'll be sending your heads back to Cyrodiil."
Galmar: "Well? What are we waiting for?"
The three of them will then draw their weapons and engage in combat, with Rikke and Tullius going after Ulfric while Galmar goes after you. When Galmar is dead and Ulfric is kneeling on the floor, Tullius will sheathe his sword and once again prove how little he knows about Nord traditions:
Tullius: "Well Ulfric, you can't escape from me this time. Any last requests before I send you to... to wherever you people go when you die."
Rikke: "Sovngarde... sir."
Tullius: "Right. Well?"
Ulfric: "Let the Dragonborn be the one to do it. It'll make for a better song."
Tullius: "Song or not, I just want it done."

Skyrim needs a ruler that is will to fight and die for his country. She needs a tough High king. Although I do not agree with Ulfric on everything he makes a fine High king.

The empire is weak and easy to surrender. Even the people in Hammerfell recognizes it, and wanted Independence.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The empire is weak and easy to surrender. Even the people in Hammerfell recognizes it, and wanted Independence.

The General isn't an idiot all about death and glory and he ends up fighting you he doesn't sit there and take it.

Why does the Empire give up so easily under pressure? 2 Imperial Officers? against a city over run by Stormcloaks? Well what are they going to do? take on the entire Stormcloak militia?

 

[Raijin]

The General isn't an idiot all about death and glory and he ends up fighting you he doesn't sit there and take it.

Why does the Empire give up so easily under pressure? 2 Imperial Officers? against a city over run by Stormcloaks? Well what are they going to do? take on the entire Stormcloak militia?

If you read the transcript nowhere did Ulfric mention surrendering to the imperial legion after his city was swarming with legionaries in battle for Windhelm. He was going to fight to the death for what he believes in. While on the other hand Rikke said it herself that the General has given up. What do you have to say about that? Sure he fought, but again he mention about surrendering rather then saying something worth wild.

The empire is a coward.

 

[DrunkenMage]

If you read the transcript nowhere did Ulfric mention surrendering to the imperial legion after his city was swarming with legionaries in battle for Windhelm. He was going to fight to the death for what he believes in. While on the other hand Rikke said it herself that the General has given up. What do you have to say about that? Sure he fought, but again he mention about surrendering rather then saying something worth wild.

The empire is a coward.

The General is there under orders, he does not believe in the Nord way of "Death and Glory" Ulfric is fighting to the end because he won't enter Sovngarde if he doesn't, the Hall of Valor is reserved by those who face death without remorse. I met the Emperor he was in no way a Coward nor is the Empire they all fought to the end in the Stormcloak victory, not one is taken alive, they fought to the death to protect their General.

The General saw his defeat and accepted it, just means he's not an idiot to rush blindly to his death.

 

[Jeremius]

What brands him as evil though are the unrefuted allegations of his conduct after retaking Markarth from the Forsworn. The killing of unarmed non-combatants including adolescents is absolutley inexcusable and vile. The developers had an opportunity to portray Ulfric more sympathetically by giving a different side to the story where the actions could have happened without his authorization and with his remorse over the fact that it happened under his command but they elected not to do so. Still if a player wants to perceive him as less repugnant they're always free to RP some non-existent content to that effect so their character can regard him as less than evil. That's what I did the one time I allied with the Stormcloaks.

This paragraph is what gets me. IS there any evidence besides that one author/book that may have been biased by the Author spending time with the forsworn? IF not, I suggest not mentioning the Markarth Incident again Dagmar.

 

[samgurl775]

Ulfric's "why I fight" speech is one of the most overrated moments in the game. "I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing" is like when in the middle of an argument you realize you're wrong, but keep arguing anyway so you don't look like an idiot.

And no, I don't think Ulfric is "evil". I think he's a selfish, power hungry, misguided, egotistical moron, but not evil.