Ysgramor, Hero or Murderous Savage?

[Ivory]

If you are expecting some stone tablet saying what exactly hapened it aint gonna happen.
It is left, like everything else to personal interpretation

Interpretation is fine, but claiming something is lore (Ysgramor and Elves having an Alliance) does not sit well with me. You're turning your interpretation (which is what the Ysgramor/Elven alliance you think happened)into a false lore and claiming it as legitimate. Don't be upset when I call you out on it.

 

[Mookie]

Interpretation is fine, but claiming something is lore (Ysgramor and Elves having an Alliance) does not sit well with me. You're turning your interpretation (which is what the Ysgramor/Elven alliance you think happened)into a false lore and claiming it as legitimate. Don't be upset when I call you out on it.

In nordic terms friendship and alliance are always the same

 

[Ivory]

In nordic terms friendship and alliance are always the same

 

[Daelon DuLac]

He basicaly prevented any further conflicts between men and falmer

Really? So what are the falmer raids and their murderous behaviour if you should happen to wander in to their domains? A tea party? I'd say there is still plenty of conflict.

 

[Mookie]

Really? So what are the falmer raids and their murderous behaviour if you should happen to wander in to their domains? A tea party? I'd say there is still plenty of conflict.

Organized conflict. An ocasional raid cant be considered an equal to war.
Especialy not to a 4000 year war

 

[Daelon DuLac]

Not in todays terms. But 4000 years ago in our world it would be acceptable. And would stop war

I don't think that, even 4000 years ago, genocide was acceptable. There are plenty of examples in our own history of such behaviour being frowned upon. Examples: Egypt, any of the Mesopetamiun cultures, India, Central Asia. Of course, we also have to be careful in making moral and political judgments based on modern standards. You are right. It was 4000 years ago. People had different societies, needs and moral values.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

Organized conflict. An ocasional raid cant be considered an equal to war.
Especialy not to a 4000 year war

True, but you statement wasn't war, it was conflict. That's what I was commenting on. Of course it wouldn't be pretty if the falmer did get organized enough to sweep out from the underground and attack. I am sure the surface dwellers could repulse them, but, then again, we really have no idea about their numbers, do we? Plus they could bring chaurus and frostbites with them.

 

[Mookie]

I don't think that, even 4000 years ago, genocide was acceptable. There are plenty of examples in our own history of such behaviour being frowned upon. Examples: Egypt, any of the Mesopetamiun cultures, India, Central Asia. Of course, we also have to be careful in making moral and political judgments based on modern standards. You are right. It was 4000 years ago. People had different societies, needs and moral values.

We have it seen as completely acceptable. Alexander comited genocide on numerous ocasions, Gengis Khan and Atila did too.
Egypt as well...

 

[Daelon DuLac]

We have it seen as completely acceptable. Alexander comited genocide on numerous ocasions, Gengis Khan and Atila did too.
Egypt as well...

Very true, but, historically, there are also many incidences of genocide (even amongst those that you mention) that have, historically and, at the time been considered unacceptable. I think we are also muddying the definition of genocide. Genocide generally refers to the elimination of a particular group of people found unacceptable by the commiter (modernish example: Nazi's & Jews; Bosnia Herzegovina; Ethiopia - Hutus and Tutsies, etc...). In most of the mentioned, it was about conquest and subjegation rather than genocide. Do you agree?

 

[Mookie]

Very true, but, historically, there are also many incidences of genocide (even amongst those that you mention) that have, historically and, at the time been considered unacceptable. I think we are also muddying the definition of genocide. Genocide generally refers to the elimination of a particular group of people found unacceptable by the commiter (modernish example: Nazi's & Jews; Bosnia Herzegovina; Ethiopia - Hutus and Tutsies, etc...). In most of the mentioned, it was about conquest and subjegation rather than genocide. Do you agree?

Agree with what?
And those are late examples.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

Agree with what?
And those are late examples.

1) Yes, modern examples of genocide by our definition. We wouldn't call many of the wars throughout human history genocide (although there are some cases, genocide was involved). Most are about conflict and subjegation as opposed to ethnic cleansing or genocide.
2) Whether you agreed with my assessment of the definition and usage of the term genocide.

Just askin' not trying to be confrontational. I just love the philosophical and intellectual bent that these conversations take.

 

[Mookie]

1) Yes, modern examples of genocide by our definition. We wouldn't call many of the wars throughout human history genocide (although there are some cases, genocide was involved). Most are about conflict and subjegation as opposed to ethnic cleansing or genocide.
2) Whether you agreed with my assessment of the definition and usage of the term genocide.

Just askin' not trying to be confrontational. I just love the philosophical and intellectual bent that these conversations take.

I see. Well a lot o genocides hapened during the migration of nations/people.
Slavs comited genocide over native thracian, dacian and illyrian populace for most part.
Genocide is generaly used in ancient time as a means of last resort, usualy reserved for constantly rebeling towns/nations.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I guess I should add, that Ysgramor isn't exactly to blame for the hate between men and elves. Since Atmora was taken over by Elves in mythic times and they oppressed man there, until they rose up, defeating the oppressing elves and overthrowing them.

 

[Pretty Vampires]

As long as it benefits me, my family, and my ancestors, genocide is acceptable and even honorable.

 

[Ivory]

I guess I should add, that Ysgramor isn't exactly to blame for the hate between men and elves. Since Atmora was taken over by Elves in mythic times and they oppressed man there, until they rose up, defeating the oppressing elves and overthrowing them.

Finally someone back on topic. Thank you. I'm interested in reading on that information, got a link?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Finally someone back on topic. Thank you. I'm interested in reading on that information, got a link?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Atmora

You'll see every now and then reference to Altmora which is what the Elves called it, 'Elder Wood'

 

[ThaDataSage]

He kind of reminds me of Andrew Jackson, the President who cause the trail of tears(hmm...seems familiar). To his people he is a hero who avenged the lives of their comrades and established a new homeland. Of course in hindsight we see the error in his ways and the cruelty of his methods.

 

[Pretty Vampires]

As long as it benefits me, my family, and my ancestors, genocide is acceptable and even honorable.

Sarcasm, btw.

 

[Joker]

All hail the Priestess of Dibella!

 

[High King of Skyrim]

He was at heart an explorer, with the heart of a lion. I admire his passion. He did what he needed to do to assure the Nords could live in peace in a new land. He wasn't a murderess savage, merely a savage warrior. Ancient Rome was full of such extraordinary people. They founded the western world as we know it but believe me, it wasn't done with kisses and cuddles. Ysgramor was only retaliating too don't forget. In essence, he was fighting for his people's very survival. The elves declared war and it was war they got. No point berating Ysgramor just because he 'did' war better.