Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

I am looking at what is there. He surrendered BECAUSE he knew he was going to lose. He was given the same options Torygg was, die fighting, or don't die fighting. Torygg chose to die fighting, Ulfric did not. plain and simple.

And yet you admit Cowardice is such a subjective word that no Imperial or Stormcloak could ever say? You, my friend, fall under one of those categories yourself in this thread. That is a contradiction to yourself, for one thing.

Second, since it is subjective (I will not deny that), it also means that under different circumstances and contexts there are different lines and definitions for what is cowardice and what is not. Torygg could have made either decision and not been cowardly. People could have seen him as cowardly, definitely, but that would not necessarily make him a coward.

And by that same token, what Ulfric did was NOT cowardly. There is a difference in honor and stupidity. And there is more to cowardice than whether you die fighting or not.

You seem to be rather rooted in your own personal philosophy, as well as quite a dose of hypocrisy. But aren't we all?

Maybe not to you or others, but to me, surrendering in the woods is a clear act of being a afraid of dying in the woods.

That's fine. You can have your own opinions. Just make sure they are well informed, and listen to reason to the opinions of others so you can better form your own, and accept new perspectives.

First of all, your opinion is NOT well informed as YOU WERE NOT IN THE WOODS WITH ULFRIC. Whether you believe it was a clear act of cowardice or not, YOU HAVE NO GROUNDS TO MARKET THAT OPINION AS FACT. Especially when taken into account that NO party involved indicated that cowardice was involved in the least. Quite the OPPOSITE in fact.

 

[Jeremius]

And yet you admit Cowardice is such a subjective word that no Imperial or Stormcloak could ever say? You, my friend, fall under one of those categories yourself in this thread. That is a contradiction to yourself, for one thing.

Second, since it is subjective (I will not deny that), it also means that under different circumstances and contexts there are different lines and definitions for what is cowardice and what is not. Torygg could have made either decision and not been cowardly. People could have seen him as cowardly, definitely, but that would not necessarily make him a coward.

And by that same token, what Ulfric did was NOT cowardly. There is a difference in honor and stupidity. And there is more to cowardice than whether you die fighting or not.

You seem to be rather rooted in your own personal philosophy, as well as quite a dose of hypocrisy. But aren't we all?

Maybe not to you or others, but to me, surrendering in the woods is a clear act of being a afraid of dying in the woods.

That's fine. You can have your own opinions. Just make sure they are well informed, and listen to reason to the opinions of others so you can better form your own, and accept new perspectives.

First of all, your opinion is NOT well informed as YOU WERE NOT IN THE WOODS WITH ULFRIC. Whether you believe it was a clear act of cowardice or not, YOU HAVE NO GROUNDS TO MARKET THAT OPINION AS FACT. Especially when taken into account that NO party involved indicated that cowardice was involved in the least. Quite the OPPOSITE in fact.

No one talks about that because no one cares. Simple as that.

IF you were a soldier, would you call your leader a coward for doing the "logical" thing? NO! IF on the other side, would you call the enemy leader a coward for doing the "right" thing? NO!

Cowardice is more than just a definition, it is an act. And what can be seen as cowardice differs from person to person. I will admit that my idea is not substantiated by being there, but I see the act itself as cowardly, no matter Ulfric's reason for it.

If the Imperials were ambushed and Tullius surrendered, I would say the same thing, as the act itself is the cowardice, not the man making the act.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

You're evolving! Wonderful! Brilliant! You're almost there now! Now tell me, WHY don't they care?

 

[Jeremius]

You're evolving! Wonderful! Brilliant! You're almost there now! Now tell me, WHY don't they care?

I just told you. Imperial believe Ulfric did the right thing when he surrendered. Stormcloaks think he did the smart thing by surrendering so his men did not die in the woods. Still does not change the fact that Ulfric, when presented with the same option he presented Torygg (to fight and die or not to fight), he chose the latter option, which I consider to be a coward's option.

Surrender is something I'd expect the Imperial politicians to do, not a "man of the people".

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

You're evolving! Wonderful! Brilliant! You're almost there now! Now tell me, WHY don't they care?

I just told you. Imperial believe Ulfric did the right thing when he surrendered. Stormcloaks think he did the smart thing by surrendering so his men did not die in the woods. Still does not change the fact that Ulfric, when presented with the same option he presented Torygg (to fight and die or not to fight), he chose the latter option, which I consider to be a coward's option.

Surrender is something I'd expect the Imperial politicians to do, not a "man of the people".

DANG IT MAN! You were so close!

You know the difference between the circumstances with Toryyg's decision and Ulfric's right? If so, tell me what they are, please.

 

[Jeremius]

You're evolving! Wonderful! Brilliant! You're almost there now! Now tell me, WHY don't they care?

I just told you. Imperial believe Ulfric did the right thing when he surrendered. Stormcloaks think he did the smart thing by surrendering so his men did not die in the woods. Still does not change the fact that Ulfric, when presented with the same option he presented Torygg (to fight and die or not to fight), he chose the latter option, which I consider to be a coward's option.

Surrender is something I'd expect the Imperial politicians to do, not a "man of the people".

DANG IT MAN! You were so close!

You know the difference between the circumstances with Toryyg's decision and Ulfric's right? If so, tell me what they are, please.

I know. Torygg was challenged to a duel in his own court, which is like slapping an Irish man in the face. Ulfric was ambushed in the woods. The choice was still the same, however, in fight or don't.

Ulfric may not be a coward in general, but in choosing the coward's option, he showed that he can be a coward at times.

Again with the school bully scenario. Others my see me walking away as the smart option. To me, however, I see myself as cowardly in that instance because I did not stand up for myself, yet I may have had good reason for not standing up for myself.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Bet they're not cheering anymore, not after the ethnic purges, the executions, assassinations and the 'reeducation' as the Thalmor call it.

Don't bet on that.

They overthrew the rightful Kings and Queens of the Altmer. I remember the revulsion and horror that took hold when word reached me - that this dementia had gripped my homeland. Once so proud and majestic, many of our great race actually embraced this insanity!

--Rising Threat, Vol. IV

Perhaps a few of the Bosmer who were practically "forced" under their rule don't cheer anymore, but the rest?
I guess the Altmer are quite flattered by the thought of being superior to everything in the world, and the Khajiit are everlastingly grateful for having their moons back.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

They were all supportive of Ulfric, so of course they would not say anything. Cowardice is not just a lack of courage in general. It is far more subjective than any Stormcloak OR imperial will ever say.

Hadvar was there, as well as the rest of the imperials. Not one of them called him out either.

And if that is the case, you are using a definition of cowardice of your own creation, and therefore not only do you forge and deny Elder Scrolls lore to suit your needs, but you also invent definitions of real life words to suit your slandering needs.

I am looking at what is there. He surrendered BECAUSE he knew he was going to lose. He was given the same options Torygg was, die fighting, or don't die fighting. Torygg chose to die fighting, Ulfric did not. plain and simple.

It would be like a bully trying to steal my lunch. IF I simply walked away, I have shown cowardice, whether I truly am a coward in general or not. I was coward in that instance.

And not necessarily. Many would tell you that walking away takes more courage. And if it is simply a bully trying to steal your lunch money, that situation is laughable at best. That situation hardly merits bravery or cowardice.

 

[Jeremius]

Hadvar was there, as well as the rest of the imperials. Not one of them called him out either.

And if that is the case, you are using a definition of cowardice of your own creation, and therefore not only do you forge and deny Elder Scrolls lore to suit your needs, but you also invent definitions of real life words to suit your slandering needs.

I am looking at what is there. He surrendered BECAUSE he knew he was going to lose. He was given the same options Torygg was, die fighting, or don't die fighting. Torygg chose to die fighting, Ulfric did not. plain and simple.

It would be like a bully trying to steal my lunch. IF I simply walked away, I have shown cowardice, whether I truly am a coward in general or not. I was coward in that instance.

And not necessarily. Many would tell you that walking away takes more courage. And if it is simply a bully trying to steal your lunch money, that situation is laughable at best. That situation hardly merits bravery or cowardice.

Yet, I refused to stand up for myself, which is what I consider to be lacking courage, aka cowardice. I lacked the courage to stand up for myself, but had enough to walk away. Same thing with Ulfric, he had the courage and dignity to face death, but not enough to go out fighting like Torygg did in his (Torygg's) situation.

Then again, this is all just my opinion based on what I know about that situation, which is simply that the Empire ambushed Ulfric and his men, and Ulfric chose surrender instead of death in battle. None of us were there when it happened, so none of us can really say anything but our opinions based on what happened, as it never really states why it happened. I consider Ulfric a coward in that situation BECAUSE of what he did, while others have a different opinion based on what he did.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

What he means is the need a man of the people, like Ulfric. Someone who's able to round up support through his anger and words. Really the Empire should hire him for recruitment, as long as they pledge to leave Skyrim.

Wouldn't be able to keep the Empire together. Men of the people end up dead when their crowd is swayed slightly. Ruling the Empire is deadly, as many Emperors have learned.

Tiber Septim was dishonorable, knew how to play politics. He had a great long reign. Next comes his grandson, second Emperor of the Third Empire. Emperor Pelagius, great man and glorious rule... assassinated within 3-4 years of being crowned.

Uriel VII greatly loved Emperor, besides members of his Legion plotting to assassinate him.

The Empire needs a devious Emperor, not a poster boy with words that inspire.

Though on the subject, men of the people make the best tyrants. You will hear Imperial supporters call Ulfric a would be tyrant, naturally you'll reject that and say "Ulfric does nothing that shows this" and that is true, Ulfric doesn't say anything incriminating.

Neither did the Thalmor, you do know how they came into power right? Oh they were loved, great with words, had massive support, people cheered them. Bet they're not cheering anymore, not after the ethnic purges, the executions, assassinations and the 'reeducation' as the Thalmor call it.

It won't be what Ulfric says that points to the tyranny, it is what his supporters say and do.

Tiber was and look how that turned out.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Ive effectively taken a break from this thread

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

I just told you. Imperial believe Ulfric did the right thing when he surrendered. Stormcloaks think he did the smart thing by surrendering so his men did not die in the woods. Still does not change the fact that Ulfric, when presented with the same option he presented Torygg (to fight and die or not to fight), he chose the latter option, which I consider to be a coward's option.

Surrender is something I'd expect the Imperial politicians to do, not a "man of the people".

DANG IT MAN! You were so close!

You know the difference between the circumstances with Toryyg's decision and Ulfric's right? If so, tell me what they are, please.

I know. Torygg was challenged to a duel in his own court, which is like slapping an Irish man in the face. Ulfric was ambushed in the woods. The choice was still the same, however, in fight or don't.

Ulfric may not be a coward in general, but in choosing the coward's option, he showed that he can be a coward at times.

Again with the school bully scenario. Others my see me walking away as the smart option. To me, however, I see myself as cowardly in that instance because I did not stand up for myself, yet I may have had good reason for not standing up for myself.

You are still missing the point. There weren't the same things at stake between the two instances. The contexts are vastly different except under the most basic of scales. First of all, Torygg's was the only life in danger with the duel. Second, Torygg wasn't going to die anyways if he refused. Those are the main points.

Anyways, this has been fun. But I'm going to find something else to do. Your opinions, to be blunt, are annoying as well as your insistence on standing by them, even if you forsake all sense of reason or continuity. You even change them and contradict yourself regularly in a blundering and foolish attempt to salvage them. It is not an admirable quality, it is not a cute quality. It is amusing when I'm trying to pass the time though, I will admit.

There's more to courage than fighting, you numb skull. And if you are attacking Ulfric, you are doing it in the wrong way. Of course, the right way has already been done. It was in his execution of Torygg that he was cowardly. Surrendering in the woods though? Pfft. It could be argued that the IMPERIALS were the cowards, as they used ambush tactics and outnumbered him greatly, and then decided to execute Ulfric and all his Stormcloaks without a fair trial. Ulfric may not have surrendered solely for the sake of his men, but there was more than just his life at stake there. It is more cowardly to throw away your life, than it is to choose life.

 

[Vatonage]

You are still missing the point. There weren't the same things at stake between the two instances. The contexts are vastly different except under the most basic of scales. First of all, Torygg's was the only life in danger with the duel. Second, Torygg wasn't going to die anyways if he refused. Those are the main points.

Anyways, this has been fun. But I'm going to find something else to do. Your opinions, to be blunt, are annoying as well as your insistence on standing by them, even if you forsake all sense of reason or continuity. You even change them and contradict yourself regularly in a blundering and foolish attempt to salvage them. It is not an admirable quality, it is not a cute quality. It is amusing when I'm trying to pass the time though, I will admit.

There's more to courage than fighting, you numb skull. And if you are attacking Ulfric, you are doing it in the wrong way. Of course, the right way has already been done. It was in his execution of Torygg that he was cowardly. Surrendering in the woods though? Pfft. It could be argued that the IMPERIALS were the cowards, as they used ambush tactics and outnumbered him greatly, and then decided to execute Ulfric and all his Stormcloaks without a fair trial. Ulfric may not have surrendered solely for the sake of his men, but there was more than just his life at stake there. It is more cowardly to throw away your life, than it is to choose life.

Does that make him Thalmor? THAALLMOAARR

 

[Jeremius]

DANG IT MAN! You were so close!

You know the difference between the circumstances with Toryyg's decision and Ulfric's right? If so, tell me what they are, please.

I know. Torygg was challenged to a duel in his own court, which is like slapping an Irish man in the face. Ulfric was ambushed in the woods. The choice was still the same, however, in fight or don't.

Ulfric may not be a coward in general, but in choosing the coward's option, he showed that he can be a coward at times.

Again with the school bully scenario. Others my see me walking away as the smart option. To me, however, I see myself as cowardly in that instance because I did not stand up for myself, yet I may have had good reason for not standing up for myself.

You are still missing the point. There weren't the same things at stake between the two instances. The contexts are vastly different except under the most basic of scales. First of all, Torygg's was the only life in danger with the duel. Second, Torygg wasn't going to die anyways if he refused. Those are the main points.

Anyways, this has been fun. But I'm going to find something else to do. Your opinions, to be blunt, are annoying as well as your insistence on standing by them, even if you forsake all sense of reason or continuity. You even change them and contradict yourself regularly in a blundering and foolish attempt to salvage them. It is not an admirable quality, it is not a cute quality. It is amusing when I'm trying to pass the time though, I will admit.

There's more to courage than fighting, you numb skull. And if you are attacking Ulfric, you are doing it in the wrong way. Of course, the right way has already been done. It was in his execution of Torygg that he was cowardly. Surrendering in the woods though? Pfft. It could be argued that the IMPERIALS were the cowards, as they used ambush tactics and outnumbered him greatly, and then decided to execute Ulfric and all his Stormcloaks without a fair trial. Ulfric may not have surrendered solely for the sake of his men, but there was more than just his life at stake there. It is more cowardly to throw away your life, than it is to choose life.

Anything can be argued as that is simply opinion based on little information. I think the Empire was being smart in the Ambush. I think Ulfric was simply a moron, not a coward in the duel. Ulfrc's life was at stake in the ambush. Torygg's reign as High King was at stake, as his refusal of the duel could have been seen as an act of cowardice, just like Ulfric's refusal to face death fighting alongside his men, and instead surrender, likely knowing that he and his men were all going to be killed anyways.

I am done arguing this Gidian, so please do not respond, as that is simply my opinion based on what little we know of the situation. I will not say Ulfric himself is a coward anymore, but in that instance, he took what I consider to be the coward's way out of the situation.

 

[Raijin]

Murder and treason are not the same. I could challenge the leader of Russia to a fight, and beat him up, but I would still get in trouble because I broke the law of Russia by fighting their leader.

Same here. Ulfric may not have "murdered" Torygg, but he broke imperial law by killing him, committing treason in the process.

You can go to Russia and ask to fight him under certain conditions, by having him sign a waver prior to the fight to prevent you from getting into legal trouble. Ulfric essentially did that when Torygg verbally agreed to fight Ulfric with a bunch of witnesses present.

 

[Jeremius]

Murder and treason are not the same. I could challenge the leader of Russia to a fight, and beat him up, but I would still get in trouble because I broke the law of Russia by fighting their leader.

Same here. Ulfric may not have "murdered" Torygg, but he broke imperial law by killing him, committing treason in the process.

You can go to Russia and ask to fight him under certain conditions, by having him sign a waver prior to the fight to prevent you from getting into legal trouble. Ulfric essentially did that when Torygg verbally agreed to fight Ulfric with a bunch of witnesses present.

Yet Torygg was a representative of the Empire, and what Ulfric did caused a Civil War, and is therefore treason.

 

[LegateFasendil]

You're evolving! Wonderful! Brilliant! You're almost there now! Now tell me, WHY don't they care?

I just told you. Imperial believe Ulfric did the right thing when he surrendered. Stormcloaks think he did the smart thing by surrendering so his men did not die in the woods. Still does not change the fact that Ulfric, when presented with the same option he presented Torygg (to fight and die or not to fight), he chose the latter option, which I consider to be a coward's option.

Surrender is something I'd expect the Imperial politicians to do, not a "man of the people".

Dammit Jeremius :{}

STOP MAKING SENSE!!! XD

It's... too... much truth... to process... all at one time... can't breath... can't stop laughing...

 

[LegateFasendil]

Murder and treason are not the same. I could challenge the leader of Russia to a fight, and beat him up, but I would still get in trouble because I broke the law of Russia by fighting their leader.

Same here. Ulfric may not have "murdered" Torygg, but he broke imperial law by killing him, committing treason in the process.

You can go to Russia and ask to fight him under certain conditions, by having him sign a waver prior to the fight to prevent you from getting into legal trouble. Ulfric essentially did that when Torygg verbally agreed to fight Ulfric with a bunch of witnesses present.

No he didn't. It was all about pride. There was no "parental consent form" or agreement drawn up. Ulfric just wanted him dead so he could look good. That's it. Ulfric couldn't have made any agreement with Torygg other than some bullpl*ps about honoring the old ways and all this nonsense... which I suppose is fine but you can't just wipe your arse with the law. Not all Nords are in bed with the "old ways". Ulfric killed Torygg in this manner to avoid the law.

THE LAW IS SACRED.

 

[LegateFasendil]

I know. Torygg was challenged to a duel in his own court, which is like slapping an Irish man in the face. Ulfric was ambushed in the woods. The choice was still the same, however, in fight or don't.

Ulfric may not be a coward in general, but in choosing the coward's option, he showed that he can be a coward at times.

Again with the school bully scenario. Others my see me walking away as the smart option. To me, however, I see myself as cowardly in that instance because I did not stand up for myself, yet I may have had good reason for not standing up for myself.

You are still missing the point. There weren't the same things at stake between the two instances. The contexts are vastly different except under the most basic of scales. First of all, Torygg's was the only life in danger with the duel. Second, Torygg wasn't going to die anyways if he refused. Those are the main points.

Anyways, this has been fun. But I'm going to find something else to do. Your opinions, to be blunt, are annoying as well as your insistence on standing by them, even if you forsake all sense of reason or continuity. You even change them and contradict yourself regularly in a blundering and foolish attempt to salvage them. It is not an admirable quality, it is not a cute quality. It is amusing when I'm trying to pass the time though, I will admit.

There's more to courage than fighting, you numb skull. And if you are attacking Ulfric, you are doing it in the wrong way. Of course, the right way has already been done. It was in his execution of Torygg that he was cowardly. Surrendering in the woods though? Pfft. It could be argued that the IMPERIALS were the cowards, as they used ambush tactics and outnumbered him greatly, and then decided to execute Ulfric and all his Stormcloaks without a fair trial. Ulfric may not have surrendered solely for the sake of his men, but there was more than just his life at stake there. It is more cowardly to throw away your life, than it is to choose life.

Anything can be argued as that is simply opinion based on little information. I think the Empire was being smart in the Ambush. I think Ulfric was simply a moron, not a coward in the duel. Ulfrc's life was at stake in the ambush. Torygg's reign as High King was at stake, as his refusal of the duel could have been seen as an act of cowardice, just like Ulfric's refusal to face death fighting alongside his men, and instead surrender, likely knowing that he and his men were all going to be killed anyways.

I am done arguing this Gidian, so please do not respond, as that is simply my opinion based on what little we know of the situation. I will not say Ulfric himself is a coward anymore, but in that instance, he took what I consider to be the coward's way out of the situation.

Jeremius is spot on here. It was ok for Torygg to be ahh "removed from existence" but Mr Braided Face wouldn't do the same. Torygg was just ripped to shreads in front of his wife and friends while Ulfric on at least TWO sep occasions BACKED DOWN. Do you understand what we're saying here? Forget Ysgramor, Ulfric subscribes to double standards. Huh imagine how much fun you guys would have with a King or a President who says one thing and does another.

Yes I think Ulfric is a coward. Any Nord who answers a personal challenge by another Jarl (chief of same rank) by hiding behind his army is a coward and is not honorable. Jarl B was in full Plate Armor expecting to meet Ulfric face to face, the Imperials were there as precaution. But instead of meeting Ulfric, he sends his army to answer this.

What if Torygg had done the same to Ulfric? What would you good clean Nords have said about that?


LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

 

[Jeremius]

You're evolving! Wonderful! Brilliant! You're almost there now! Now tell me, WHY don't they care?

I just told you. Imperial believe Ulfric did the right thing when he surrendered. Stormcloaks think he did the smart thing by surrendering so his men did not die in the woods. Still does not change the fact that Ulfric, when presented with the same option he presented Torygg (to fight and die or not to fight), he chose the latter option, which I consider to be a coward's option.

Surrender is something I'd expect the Imperial politicians to do, not a "man of the people".

Dammit Jeremius :{}

STOP MAKING SENSE!!! XD

It's... too... much truth... to process... all at one time... can't breath... can't stop laughing...

I decided to change my opinion. Ulfric is indeed not a coward, but there are moments where a brave and intelligent man can show cowardice (though these would few and far between, and can be overlooked because he is brave almost all other times).