Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Docta Corvina]

Should be easy victory for the Empire, I guess Legate Atilius will show.

Haha, well, I think we want to keep it more or less "balanced" though. Like, we don't want to have an overabundance of Legionnaires versus Stormcloaks. We ideally want to moderate so that at any given time we have, say, two Legionnaires debating with two Stormcloaks. The OOC thread will be a place to help manage that.

 

[Stephen Daidalus]

Should be easy victory for the Empire, I guess Legate Atilius will show.

Well, if it's just going to be a beat down on Stormcloak supporters, I don't think that would be all that interesting. We already have that here and in every other thread on the subject that I've read.

My fear for the RP is that we will be unable to recruit enough Stormcloaks, or at last enough of those who can RP their cause with sufficient passion.

It may be that the Stormcloak side is not a cause that can be argued very well. That's what this thread concludes, after all. And if that's the case, despite my initial sense that it could be fun to RP it, I'm not sure it would be.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Well, if it's just going to be a beat down on Stormcloak supporters, I don't think that would be all that interesting. We already have that here and in every other thread on the subject that I've read.

My fear for the RP is that we will be unable to recruit enough Stormcloaks, or at last enough of those who can RP their cause with sufficient passion.

It may be that the Stormcloak side is not a cause that can be argued very well. That's what this thread concludes, after all. And if that's the case, despite my initial sense that it could be fun to RP it, I'm not sure it would be.

I didn't mean it like that, I meant since many people create characters who are about 20 years old... They don't know plops about what was before the Great War, all they would know was the treaty, considering the Thalmor have been in Skyrim longer than they've been alive. So the White-Gold Concordat is what they grew up with.

 

[Docta Corvina]

I agree. We want to avoid outright "easy victories" with this RP. Because it's not really about that as much as it's a way for us to give voice to our characters and deal with the nuances of the war at the same time. I don't know if we want to require being able to RP on both sides, but I think people who can do that would be most desirable in the interests of keeping it more balanced.

We really need Ozan back here - he's a fantastic model for this. He and Stephen Daidalus had some of the most interesting posts and exchanges going back in the day, because they were strictly IC. That was terribly cool, and we want to reproduce that context.

 

[Stephen Daidalus]

I agree. We want to avoid outright "easy victories" with this RP. Because it's not really about that as much as it's a way for us to give voice to our characters and deal with the nuances of the war at the same time. I don't know if we want to require being able to RP on both sides, but I think people who can do that would be most desirable in the interests of keeping it more balanced.

We really need Ozan back here - he's a fantastic model for this. He and Stephen Daidalus had some of the most interesting posts and exchanges going back in the day, because they were strictly IC. That was terribly cool, and we want to reproduce that context.

I'm flattered. Regrettably, thanks to this account being frapped, my RP exchanges have mostly been erased. I do have copies of many of my posts because -- believe it or not -- I actually refined rough drafts of some of them before I posted. (I know. How lame!)

 

[DrunkenMage]

I agree. We want to avoid outright "easy victories" with this RP. Because it's not really about that as much as it's a way for us to give voice to our characters and deal with the nuances of the war at the same time. I don't know if we want to require being able to RP on both sides, but I think people who can do that would be most desirable in the interests of keeping it more balanced.

We really need Ozan back here - he's a fantastic model for this. He and Stephen Daidalus had some of the most interesting posts and exchanges going back in the day, because they were strictly IC. That was terribly cool, and we want to reproduce that context.

All I'm saying is, since everyone always does a character who is young. The Thalmor have been in Skyrim for around 26 years, it's not like they suddenly appeared. So from a character's point of view, all they grew up with was the WGC and the Thalmor within Skyrim. Many people sometimes forget that, they're rebelling against everything they've ever known, save a few old grumpy men.

 

[Stephen Daidalus]

All I'm saying is, since everyone always does a character who is young. The Thalmor have been in Skyrim for around 26 years, it's not like they suddenly appeared. So from a character's point of view, all they grew up with was the WGC and the Thalmor within Skyrim. Many people sometimes forget that, they're rebelling against everything they've ever known, save a few old grumpy men.

I'm not sure I see the relevance. When women protested to get the vote, and when African Americans protested against racial segregation, they were also rebelling against everything they'd ever known.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I'm not sure I see the relevance. When women protested to get the vote, and when African Americans protested against racial segregation, they were also rebelling against everything they'd ever known.

This is a rebellion with the idea of going back to how things were without the Empire, that was during the reign of the First Empire. This rebellion is for the worship of Talos which since it's ban not many would know too much about Talos, if they were young. Unless you're one of the Stormcloak NPC's asking why they fight, "I'm a true Nord, simple as is."

 

[Docta Corvina]

I'm flattered. Regrettably, thanks to this account being frapped, my RP exchanges have mostly been erased. I do have copies of many of my posts because -- believe it or not -- I actually refined rough drafts of some of them before I posted. (I know. How lame!)

Well, I still think you could likely get them restored here too, via Rayven's awesomeness. But if you have the drafts, then that is excellent to hear! (And it's not lame! I'm relieved, because it's great stuff! )

 

[DrunkenMage]

I guess what I'm getting at, you would need a reason for fighting with the Stormcloaks, unless in the RP thing you're accepting what many Stormcloak supporters use which is "I like being a rebel" or "I like rebellions"

 

[Stephen Daidalus]

This is a rebellion with the idea of going back to how things were without the Empire, that was during the reign of the First Empire. This rebellion is for the worship of Talos which since it's ban not many would know too much about Talos, if they were young. Unless you're one of the Stormcloak NPC's asking why they fight, "I'm a true Nord, simple as is."

Are you saying that the WGC has been so successful in dampening the worship of Talos that not many young people know about him?

I thought you always maintained that Talos worship was usually not prosecuted and that only happened recently thanks to Ulfric bringing Thalmor attention to the practice. Now you're suggesting that the ban actually had much more far reaching effects, such that young people don't even know very much about Talos.

This is a very compelling argument against the Empire. I'm surprised to hear you making it.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Are you saying that the WGC has been so successful in dampening the worship of Talos that not many young people know about him?

I thought you always maintained that Talos worship was usually not prosecuted and that only happened recently thanks to Ulfric bringing Thalmor attention to the practice. Now you're suggesting that the ban actually had much more far reaching effects, such that young people don't even know very much about Talos.

This is a very compelling argument against the Empire. I'm surprised to hear you making it.

Well since the Thalmor started putting pressure when the WGC was breached during the Markarth Incident, things were getting heated. Ulfric's been using the rally for Talos for quite sometime since he was released from Imperial prison, before Torygg's father died. So things haven't always been good but Ulfric's actions cause the Empire to have to uphold it's end of the treaty. The Markarth Incident was just the stepping stone into allowing a Thalmor Talos inquisition to occur. Empire even printed the Talos Mistake which was sent to the provinces. Propaganda encouraging acceptance of the ban on the worship of Talos. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Talos_Mistake

 

[Stephen Daidalus]

Well since the Thalmor started putting pressure when the WGC was breached during the Markarth Incident, things were getting heated. Ulfric's been using the rally for Talos for quite sometime since he was released from Imperial prison, before Torygg's father died. So things haven't always been good but Ulfric's actions cause the Empire to have to uphold it's end of the treaty. The Markarth Incident was just the stepping stone into allowing a Thalmor Talos inquisition to occur. Empire even printed the Talos Mistake which was sent to the provinces. Propaganda encouraging acceptance of the ban on the worship of Talos. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Talos_Mistake

I've read it.

In your other post, you seem worried that a Stormcloak RP would amount to little more than "I"m a true Nord" or "I like rebellions." Well, I agree. It would be okay for a character to use that. But it would get old if everyone did. I suppose it depends on who you choose to participate in the RP. But if you really think that the WGC has had an actual and demonstrable effect on the minds of young people and the gods they choose to worship, surely that, all by itself, is a reason to support the Stormcloaks?

 

[DrunkenMage]

I've read it.

In your other post, you seem worried that a Stormcloak RP would amount to little more than "I"m a true Nord" or "I like rebellions." Well, I agree. I suppose it depends on who you choose to participate in the RP. But if you really think that the WGC has had an actual and demonstrable effect on the minds of young people and the gods they choose to worship, surely that, all by itself, is a reason to support the Stormcloaks?

There are plenty of reasons to support the Stormcloaks, plenty of reasons why the Empire is bad and the Legions even worse. Though I don't want to give them a good defense

 

[Stephen Daidalus]

There are plenty of reasons to support the Stormcloaks, plenty of reasons why the Empire is bad and the Legions even worse. Though I don't want to give them a good defense

Why not?

 

[Docta Corvina]

I actually think the Stormcloak stance is defensible based on what one's priorities are. Rather, what one's character's priorities are. It might not impress Legionnaires who view the situation in a more macro fashion (as opposed to the Stormcloak's arguably micro), but it's clear, at least to me, that Bethesda set out to make the choices with differing sets of considerations and nuances.

If someone's RPing a Nord who's fighting with the primary intent of driving the Thalmor out of Skyrim (ie. the Ralof model), I think it's a tenable position. That character is not necessarily going to be swayed by threats of a resurgent Dominion in coming years. He's concerned about his home, his family, his neighbors, his way of life, in the present. That immediate threat has to be addressed and he doesn't necessarily see the Empire doing anything to counter the affronts. Because the character's line of sight extends to a limited point, a realistic one. He knows what he knows, he sees what he sees around him. And even as it is presented in the game, the readiest way to expel the Thalmor from Skyrim is to support the Stormcloak effort and lead it to victory. A Stormcloak doesn't have to support or look kindly upon the racist policies of Windhelm, and he can even prefer to see someone else take the reins of power when the war is over.

I don't think this is at all inconsistent with even what we witness in certain characters like Ralof. I think it's workable, if done with consideration, reasoning, and passion.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Why not?

Because even the Empire admits Legion garrisons and occupation of certain provinces are a waste of money.Take when Morrowind and Black Marsh were a part of the Empire.

Indeed, a few beneficiaries of Imperial monopolies in the provinces do profit from exploitation of their wealth and resources. But does the Empire as a whole benefit? Hardly. The vast machineries of the Imperial bureaucracies cost far more to maintain than can be recovered in duties and taxes. And the cost of establishing and maintaining the garrisons of the Imperial legion in the far-flung wilderness posts of these provinces would be cost-effective only if there were evidence of a military threat

In fact, a greater threat to Imperial security lies in the idle legions that the taxpayer spends thousands of drakes to support. The generals of these legions, facing no enemies or opposition within the borders of their provinces, may look with ambition to the West. With their loyal veteran troops and coffers fattened by friendly monopolists, they become unpredictable political factors in the uncertainties surrounding the Imperial succession.

Instead of using our Imperial legions to free the wretched Khajiit and Argonian slaves from their Dark Elf masters, we pay our troopers to PROTECT the indefensible institution of slavery.

Consider the colossal arrogance of our proposition to bring Peace and Enlightenment to the East, when in fact, we have only brought our armies into lands who have never threatened us, and when we have only exploited the most shameful and evil practices we have found in Morrowind and Black Marsh simply to enrich the friends and flatterers of the Imperial family.
Impartially considered, our occupation of the Eastern provinces is morally corrupt, militarily indefensible, and economically ruinous. The only conclusion is that we should disband the Eastern legions, withdraw the Imperial bureaucracies and monopolists from the East, and give these ancient lands and peoples their freedom.

 

[Stephen Daidalus]

I actually think the Stormcloak stance is defensible based on what one's priorities are. Rather, what one's character's priorities are. It might not impress Legionnaires who view the situation in a more macro fashion (as opposed to the Stormcloak's arguably micro), but it's clear, at least to me, that Bethesda set out to make the choices with differing sets of considerations and nuances.

If someone's RPing a Nord who's fighting with the primary intent of driving the Thalmor out of Skyrim (ie. the Ralof model), I think it's a tenable position. That character is not necessarily going to be swayed by threats of a resurgent Dominion in coming years. He's concerned about his home, his family, his neighbors, his way of life. That immediate threat has to be addressed and he doesn't necessarily see the Empire doing anything to counter the affronts. Because the character's line of sight extends to a limited point, a realistic one. He knows what he knows, he sees what he sees around him. And even as it is presented in the game, the readiest way to expel the Thalmor from Skyrim is to support the Stormcloak effort and lead it to victory. A Stormcloak doesn't have to support or look kindly upon the racist policies of Windhelm, and he can even prefer to see someone else take the reins of power when the war is over.

I don't think this is at all inconsistent with even what we witness in certain characters like Ralof. I think it's workable, if done with consideration, reasoning, and passion.

I have seen Empire supporters argue with equal fervency that the Thalmor are an awesome terrible threat, hence breaking up the Empire is bad, and also that they are a very distant threat, that it will take years, if not decades before they can do anything remotely dangerous, which is why it's okay for the Empire to take as much time as it needs to build up its defences.

I'm not sure, in this context, that the long term consequences view really matters, since even Imperial supporters don't seem to be clear in their minds just exactly how much of a threat the Dominion really represents, much less -- given the geography -- how much of a threat it represents to Skyrim.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I have seen Empire supporters argue with equal fervency that the Thalmor are an awesome terrible threat, hence breaking up the Empire is bad, and also that they are a very distant threat, that it will take years, if not decades before they can do anything remotely dangerous, which is why it's okay for the Empire to take as much time as it needs to build up its defences.

I'm not sure, in this context, that the long term consequences view really matters, since even Imperial supporters don't seem to be clear in their minds just exactly how much of a threat the Dominion really represents, much less -- given the geography -- how much of a threat it represents to Skyrim.

They pose a very large threat. Very few armies on Nirn have capability to wipe out entire Legions.

 

[Stephen Daidalus]

Because even the Empire admits Legion garrisons and occupation of certain provinces are a waste of money.Take when Morrowind and Black Marsh were a part of the Empire.

Indeed, a few beneficiaries of Imperial monopolies in the provinces do profit from exploitation of their wealth and resources. But does the Empire as a whole benefit? Hardly. The vast machineries of the Imperial bureaucracies cost far more to maintain than can be recovered in duties and taxes. And the cost of establishing and maintaining the garrisons of the Imperial legion in the far-flung wilderness posts of these provinces would be cost-effective only if there were evidence of a military threat

In fact, a greater threat to Imperial security lies in the idle legions that the taxpayer spends thousands of drakes to support. The generals of these legions, facing no enemies or opposition within the borders of their provinces, may look with ambition to the West. With their loyal veteran troops and coffers fattened by friendly monopolists, they become unpredictable political factors in the uncertainties surrounding the Imperial succession.

Instead of using our Imperial legions to free the wretched Khajiit and Argonian slaves from their Dark Elf masters, we pay our troopers to PROTECT the indefensible institution of slavery.

Consider the colossal arrogance of our proposition to bring Peace and Enlightenment to the East, when in fact, we have only brought our armies into lands who have never threatened us, and when we have only exploited the most shameful and evil practices we have found in Morrowind and Black Marsh simply to enrich the friends and flatterers of the Imperial family.
Impartially considered, our occupation of the Eastern provinces is morally corrupt, militarily indefensible, and economically ruinous. The only conclusion is that we should disband the Eastern legions, withdraw the Imperial bureaucracies and monopolists from the East, and give these ancient lands and peoples their freedom.

Hah. You think fast and type fast.

My 'Why not?' was actually directed at why you didn't want to give Stormcloaks a good defense.