Redguard Discussion (was DLC discussion)

[Dagmar]

Just because the Thalmor left doesn't mean everyone who sided with them did. Perhaps the resistance still exists and is taking measures to stop them from spreading the belief that they should return to Hammerfell.

First that requires the fabrication of a non-existent desire to be oppressed by Thalmor rule by any measurable amount of the Redguard population which is contradicted by the widespread resistance to the Aldmeri Dominion occupation once the Empire ceded the lands to the Dominion. Second you don't need a resistance to ferret out any remnants of Thalmor colluders. You're completely missing the point that a resistance exists largely by virtue of the fact that the people of a territory are being governed by an occupying force. In unoccupied sovereign Hammerfell or any other province it's completely pointless to have a resistance when it is the Redguards that govern and therefore delegate official authority to do things like protect the land from invaders (it's called an army) and route out enemies from within (like the Penitus Oculatus in the Empire).

It's also entirely possible that the quest is simply to test what the player knows about TES lore. It doesn't have to be a screw up, just something to see how many people can notice the inconsistencies.

It's possible that lighting might strike you that doesn't make it probable. Even if one were to entertain such a notion it changes nothing about the fact that it's inconsistent with the lore.

 

[Dagmar]

Remember the scene in episode four of Band of Brothers where Easy Company, upon liberating Eindhoven, stumbles upon a circle of Belgians cutting off hair, drawing swastikas on the forehead and unceremoniously disrobing women that collaborated with the Nazis? The local resistance leader then approaches Winters and says something to the effect that those women were lucky as the men were being shot. There is always the reciprocal element after the occupation is over. That is to what Kematu likely refers, and is probably why he has been sent after Iman.

There's three gigantic holes in your comparison. The first is that it's been over 20 years since the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai was signed. I've never seen Band of Brothers but I'm guessing that East Company wasn't liberating Eindhoven two decades after the end of World War II. Second is that the Aldmeri Dominion weren't completely crushed and routed like the Nazis were in World War II. There was a ceasefire, there was a peace negotiation and there was a peaceful withdrawal of all forces which would have allowed any analogous sympathizers to leave with the Dominion forces. Third even if something like that would have been going on twenty years later, see above. It would have been going on under the auspices of an official government empowered agency not a resistance. Words have meaning and there is no substantive meaning conveyed in calling anything a resistance that's government run or sanctioned in a nation that's been sovereign and independent for over two decades.

Therefore it is not likely at all that Kematu is referring to situation like that. It is exponentially more possible and reconcilable that Kematu is referring to the resistance against the Aldmeri occupation of territories of Hammerfell because everything in the quest makes sense when taken as the same and otherwise comes off as convoluted, strained, grasping for straws or just nonsensical in referring to sovereign Hammerfell over 20 years later.

 

[Two Bears]

There's three gigantic holes in your comparison. The first is that it's been over 20 years since the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai was signed. I've never seen Band of Brothers but I'm guessing that East Company wasn't liberating Eindhoven two decades after the end of World War II. Second is that the Aldmeri Dominion weren't completely crushed and routed like the Nazis were in World War II. There was a ceasefire, there was a peace negotiation and there was a peaceful withdrawal of all forces which would have allowed any analogous sympathizers to leave with the Dominion forces. Third even if something like that would have been going on twenty years later, see above. It would have been going on under the auspices of an official government empowered agency not a resistance. Words have meaning and there is no substantive meaning conveyed in calling anything a resistance that's government run or sanctioned in a nation that's been sovereign and independent for over two decades.

Therefore it is not likely at all that Kematu is referring to situation like that. It is exponentially more possible and reconcilable that Kematu is referring to the resistance against the Aldmeri occupation of territories of Hammerfell because everything in the quest makes sense when taken as the same and otherwise comes off as convoluted, strained, grasping for straws or just nonsensical in referring to sovereign Hammerfell over 20 years later.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/long-wanted-nazi-caught-article-1.1117249

We were still hunting down and finding Nazi war criminals as late as last year so I'm thinking it doesn't sound a whole lot like straw grasping. Still, points for effort on the attempted body slam.

 

[Dagmar]

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/long-wanted-nazi-caught-article-1.1117249

We were still hunting down and finding Nazi war criminals as late as last year so I'm thinking it doesn't sound a whole lot like straw grasping. Still, points for effort on the attempted body slam.

"We" meaning government agencies and international courts and recognized authorities, not a resistance. Comparing that to a claim that a resistance movement that was formed and disbanded during and occupation is behind it is grasping at straws. The resistance no longer exists whether we're talking about the fictitious one of the Elder Scrolls Universe or the real ones from World War II that existed in Nazi occupied territories.

 

[Two Bears]

"We" meaning government agencies and international courts and recognized authorities, not a resistance. Comparing that to a claim that a resistance movement that was formed and disbanded during and occupation is behind it is grasping at straws. The resistance no longer exists whether we're talking about the fictitious one of the Elder Scrolls Universe or the real ones from World War II that existed in Nazi occupied territories.

Given that Kematu specifically states that he is working for the recognized local authorities, specifically the Royal Houses of Taneth, I'd say that he is pretty official. Again, no straw-grasping about it.

 

[Dagmar]

Given that Kematu specifically states that he is working for the recognized local authorities, specifically the Royal Houses of Taneth, I'd say that he is pretty official. Again, no straw-grasping about it.

Kematu says nothing of the sort. He states explicitly that Taneth had fallen and the other noble houses discovered her betrayal. Further there is nothing that implies that those noble houses constitute any kind of recognized authority as that begs the question as to whether he's talking about occupied Hammerfell or sovereign Hammerfell. He simply states that they've hired him and he's a self admitted mercenary, a profession that requires no recognized authority other than that of the purse. Attempting to validate your premise by bootstrapping it with very question at issue is in fact grasping at straws.

 

[Two Bears]

Kematu says nothing of the sort. He states explicitly that Taneth had fallen and the other noble houses discovered her betrayal. Further there is nothing that implies that those noble houses constitute any kind of recognized authority as that begs the question as to whether he's talking about occupied Hammerfell or sovereign Hammerfell. He simply states that they've hired him and he's a self admitted mercenary, a profession that requires no recognized authority other than that of the purse. Attempting to validate your premise by bootstrapping it with very question at issue is in fact grasping at straws.

Go to 6:15 and see it for yourself.

EDIT: As for the rest, now you are reading what you want into the situation. I get that you see it this way, but by doing so you are doing the very straw-grasping that you are accusing others of.

 

[Dagmar]

..As for the rest, now you are reading what you want into the situation. I get that you see it this way, but by doing so you are doing the very straw-grasping that you are accusing others of.

I'm not reading anything into the situation. The video establishes nothing. The noble houses of Taneth to the extent that they survived its conquest by the Aldmeri Dominion would have joined the resistance against the Aldmeri Dominion during the occupation. It completely begs the question as to whether they are acting under any color of authority and in the context of referring to the resistance being alive and well in Hammerfell it's pretty clear that Kematu is, in fact, acting on behalf of the resistance. The fact remains that resistances are formed in the absence of governmental authority in occupied territories and don't continue once that situation ceases to exist, a fact supported by the very article you cited. That article in turn supports the notion that if he's been hired by the resistance he is not working under any analogous authority to that of present day Nazi hunters but is working for an actual resistance. It's not grasping at straws. It's simple observation and application of facts and the actual contextual and historical meaning of the word resistance. You completely abandoned the latter in trying to refute the former.

 

[Phoenix Knight]

Maybe the Resistance spread out to the point that it became the army and government of Hammerfell. In the Civil War when a side wins the jarls who sided with the enemy are replaced with the winning side's supporters.

First that requires the fabrication of a non-existent desire to be oppressed by Thalmor rule by any measurable amount of the Redguard population

There had to have been supporters of the Thalmor who were rewarded or had a better position under Thalmor rule. If those people wanted the Thalmor back so they could be in power again under the Thalmor it stands to reason that they would try to bring them back. The resistance, which would have merged with the Hammerfell government, would try to capture them. This would technically still be resisting the Thalmor. Thus creating a resistance

 

[Phoenix Knight]

I've just realized that we are debating the history and government of an imaginary civilization.

 

[Two Bears]

I'm not reading anything into the situation. The video establishes nothing.

It establishes that he is working on behalf of the Noble Houses of Taneth, countering what you said in post number 66.

The noble houses of Taneth to the extent that they survived its conquest by the Aldmeri Dominion would have joined the resistance against the Aldmeri Dominion during the occupation. It completely begs the question as to whether they are acting under any color of authority and in the context of referring to the resistance being alive and well in Hammerfell it's pretty clear that Kematu is, in fact, acting on behalf of the resistance.

Based on what? Where are you getting this from? What lore states this?

The fact remains that resistances are formed in the absence of governmental authority in occupied territories and don't continue once that situation ceases to exist, a fact supported by the very article you cited. That article in turn supports the notion that if he's been hired by the resistance he is not working under any analogous authority to that of present day Nazi hunters but is working for an actual resistance. It's not grasping at straws. It's simple observation and application of facts and the actual contextual and historical meaning of the word resistance. You completely abandoned the latter in trying to refute the former.

Except where he says he isn't. Your argument has now boiled down to the belief that Kematu isn't working for the resistance, he is only working for the resistance. And in coming up with this non-argument you're making a lot of leaps of faith here. Until you can demonstrate where you are getting any of this from its all simply vaporous.

 

[Two Bears]

I've just realized that we are debating the history and government of an imaginary civilization.

Not only that, but an imaginary civilization that doesn't really have anything written or stated about it other than Kematu telling us who is employer is, making it one of the sillier discussions in which I've been involved. Shame on me for taking the plunge, I suppose.

 

[Phoenix Knight]

same here Two Bears.

 

[Dagmar]

Based on what? Where are you getting this from? What lore states this?

Kematu clearly states that Taneth fell to the Aldmeri Dominion. This is also corroborated by the lore text The Great War which states that the Aldmeri Dominion overran and conquered all the southern coastal cities with the exception of Hegathe. The noble houses of Taneth would have no authority to act in occupied Taneth as it was under rule of the Thalmor. They certainly couldn't receive an agent of the Thalmor for judgment within Taneth which places them in Resistance controlled territory if Kematu's statements are to make any sense at all.

Except where he says he isn't.

This isn't even responsive to the observation that you quoted.

Your argument has now boiled down to the belief that Kematu isn't working for the resistance, he is only working for the resistance.

This is a straw man and complete nonsense. My argument has been from the start that Kematu alleges he works for the resistance and the resistance only existed during the time of the Aldmeri Dominion's occupation of southern Hammerfell. These aren't even premises, they're facts about the history of Tamriel and the very definition of a resistance movement which has a very specific meaning in the English language. You can engage in whatever convoluted and contrived arguments you want but it will never change the immutable definition of what a resistance movement is and what Kematu is referring to when he refers to the resistance being alive and well in Hammerfell. It will always be a failed argument ab initio.

 

[SaveVsBedWet]

The original Redguard game is the only TES episode in the series I didn't purchase, because everything that made TES stand out among CRPGs was removed in favor of unoriginal, linear play and characters.

So...but there's nothing wrong with Hammerfell province per se, so if that's the reason for the reference to 'Redguard', no issue here.

 

[berzum]

i really hate to be a pain but there is no more DLC's why are we talking about future DLC's i don't know, yes it would be nice for another DLC even if was called "redguard" but the developers have already said that skyrim is more or less over with they have bigger fish to fry, I wish a forum mod could maybe close this thread or do something, it is pointless.

 

[Rayven]

I see this conversation has moved to some Redguard lore rather than the possibility of a DLC. I'm willing to leave the thread intact but is there any objection to me altering the title?

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

I think the whole issue with Saadia and Kematu was caused when a moth priest suddenly sneezed while reading an elder scroll, while at the same time being hit by a giant flaming wombat. Thus, the world got thrown out of wack and everyone scattered across time and space and dimensions. Kematu and Saadia happened to land in 4E 201. TRY THAT ON FOR SIZE!

 

[Phoenix Knight]

I think the whole issue with Saadia and Kematu was caused when a moth priest suddenly sneezed while reading an elder scroll, while at the same time being hit by a giant flaming wombat. Thus, the world got thrown out of wack and everyone scattered across time and space and dimensions. Kematu and Saadia happened to land in 4E 201. TRY THAT ON FOR SIZE!

That would be absolutely hilarious

 

[CosmicExplorer]

I resist resistance. Bam.