Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Tyer032392]

The guys are like the best of the best? Then why are they hunting Talos worshipers instead of warring with the Empire?

Just because Invasion is a bade idea does not mean that defying the Thalmor=Thalmor invasion. Likely the Justiciars are all that they have left for any sort of invasion force.

The best of the best, or as we call it the special forces commit to an entirely different type of warfare, and that is even done in peace time. The type of warfare that the justiciars are committing is that of psychological warfare over physical warfare. Psychological warfare, also known as espionage and or sabotage can come in a number of forms, and the primary one is causing dissent through the Empire so to weaken the Empire further and as Julius Caesar has once said, "to divide and conquer". The mortal mistake of Ulfric and his rebellion is they are not looking at the entire picture, and instead of just going along with it channeling their anger for the next coming great war which is just around the corner, and is instead channeling it towards the very people they need in order to survive the Aldermi Dominion's army.

A historical reference to the White-Gold Concordat would be the Treaty of Versailles which ended the First World War. Both the ToV and WGC were used as a breating point as both the armeis of the allied-central powers/ Aldmeri-Imperial were exhausted to the point that an occupation was not feasible to either side.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Man, what people "talk about" is a very large part of how we know anything of what's currently happening in 4E 201. If you've got to have precise numbers before you believe the Thalmor are an understood and canonical threat, then I think you're going to be disappointed.

That may well be part of Bethesda's approach, but you can't dismiss what DrunkenMage has quoted. It's every bit as relevant to the conversation. In your earlier posts, you were saying that the war didn't matter because RP makes anything and any perspective possible. Then why spend time quibbling about precise numbers?

I do not trust it because it is vague. Dialogue can mean anything, and is not a good indicator of truth. I need undisputed truth, not hearsay.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I do not trust it because it is vague. Dialogue can mean anything, and is not a good indicator of truth. I need undisputed truth, not hearsay.

You're playing the wrong series then.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I do not trust it because it is vague. Dialogue can mean anything, and is not a good indicator of truth. I need undisputed truth, not hearsay.

You're playing the wrong series then.

That is the problem, Lore spoken by people is not lore unless it is backed up, to me, anyways. Better to not bother with dialogue and just look at the facts and what ACTUALLY happened. That means that the Thalmor got their butts handed to them by a resurgent Empire in the great war, and were beaten into a stalemate by the redguards, who forced them into a treaty, then out of their homeland, making them not the powerhouses they were when they were winning by surprise.

 

[NENALATA]

That is the problem, Lore spoken by people is not lore unless it is backed up, to me, anyways. Better to not bother with dialogue and just look at the facts and what ACTUALLY happened. That means that the Thalmor got their butts handed to them by a resurgent Empire in the great war, and were beaten into a stalemate by the redguards, who forced them into a treaty, then out of their homeland, making them not the powerhouses they were when they were winning by surprise.

I was passing thru and just would like to point this out... No disrespect to anyone in particular, however, the above statement isn't very cohesive. You're trying to say that character (lore) dialogue isn't lore and then follow the statement up by stating your opinion and interpretation of the Great War's outcome which is based on your own perspective of related lore.

Some npcs have accounts from being 'on the ground' at time of various events. Effectively, amounting to 'eye witness testimony'. This give us perspective on the lore and a better understand of what happened to use in drawing our own conclusions.

Dialogue is extremely important and the better the source, the more information provided. Because in Skyrim, unfort, that's all we really have is dialogue and a few pieces of written info.

As for the Thalmor... I wouldn't be so bold in saying how the Empire 'beat their butts' because the Empire surrendered to the Dominion and signed a revised treaty *Demanded* by the Thalmor from the beginning, which included almost everything the Thalmor originally *Demanded*.

Is there still hope for the Empire? Yes, I believe so. Should the Empire be given another chance? Sure. I'm fine with it as long as the Dominion too is given the respect it deserves, same as the Empire.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You rely on one type of source. Majority of lore and pages regarding lore on uesp and how Bethesda get events known are from several sources including majority in-game dialogue.

The problem is that this isn't real life where you have hundreds, if not thousands of books on the single subject. TES is a game, where there are only certain bits of information regarding events, such as dialogue or even a single in-game book.

That is how lore works in a game, it is treated as fact unless contradicted. Such as 'Scourge of the Gray Quarter' in-game book, claims the Dunmer are lazy and do nothing. But looking in the game you find the Dunmer all do work.

It is fact unless proved wrong. The problem many people have is they're looking at it from a real life history perspective. It is a limited fantasy world, where you will find hundreds of years of history in a book made up of five paragraphs.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

That is the problem, Lore spoken by people is not lore unless it is backed up, to me, anyways. Better to not bother with dialogue and just look at the facts and what ACTUALLY happened. That means that the Thalmor got their butts handed to them by a resurgent Empire in the great war, and were beaten into a stalemate by the redguards, who forced them into a treaty, then out of their homeland, making them not the powerhouses they were when they were winning by surprise.

I was passing thru and just would like to point this out... No disrespect to anyone in particular, however, the above statement isn't very cohesive. You're trying to say that character (lore) dialogue isn't lore and then follow the statement up by stating your opinion and interpretation of the Great War's outcome which is based on your own perspective of related lore.

Some npcs have accounts from being 'on the ground' at time of various events. Effectively, amounting to 'eye witness testimony'. This give us perspective on the lore and a better understand of what happened to use in drawing our own conclusions.

Dialogue is extremely important and the better the source, the more information provided. Because in Skyrim, unfort, that's all we really have is dialogue and a few pieces of written info.

As for the Thalmor... I wouldn't be so bold in saying how the Empire 'beat their butts' because the Empire surrendered to the Dominion and signed a revised treaty *Demanded* by the Thalmor from the beginning, which included almost everything the Thalmor originally *Demanded*.

Is there still hope for the Empire? Yes, I believe so. Should the Empire be given another chance? Sure. I'm fine with it as long as the Dominion too is given the respect it deserves, same as the Empire.

Uh, did you not read the great war book. The Empire basically did defeat the Thalmor, but lost much as well, making the WGC a no-brainer at the time. and that is why I tend to stay out of the war unless I make a character where it fits. simple as that. Decisions based on character, like everything else in Skyrim, is prevalent to the Civil War.

 

[DrunkenMage]

That is the problem, Lore spoken by people is not lore unless it is backed up, to me, anyways. Better to not bother with dialogue and just look at the facts and what ACTUALLY happened. That means that the Thalmor got their butts handed to them by a resurgent Empire in the great war, and were beaten into a stalemate by the redguards, who forced them into a treaty, then out of their homeland, making them not the powerhouses they were when they were winning by surprise.

Uh, did you not read the great war book. The Empire basically did defeat the Thalmor, but lost much as well, making the WGC a no-brainer at the time. and that is why I tend to stay out of the war unless I make a character where it fits. simple as that. Decisions based on character, like everything else in Skyrim, is prevalent to the Civil War.

Even in the source you're going by as fact to why the Thalmor aren't a threat, that they got their ass handed to them. Has this also.

There can be no doubt that the current peace cannot last forever. The Thalmor take the long view, as is proved by the sequence of events leading up to the Great War. All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat. Otherwise, any hope to stem the tide of Thalmor rule over all of Tamriel is dimmed.

Even the book agrees with the Thalmor are a threat.

Edit: I don't see your connection to a 'no-brainer' since you simply ignore this part.

Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year.

Now if we go by there were 18 Legions, then the Thalmor wiped out enough soldiers to fill 10.5 Legions. Leaving the Empire with only 7.5 Legions.

If we go by the highest number Legion mentioned during the Great War, and the Empire had a weakened force of only 10 Legions. Thalmor wiped out three and left the rest under half. So the Empire had enough manpower to have 3.5 Legions remaining.

So please tell me, how on earth you believe the Empire had the upper-hand after the Battle of the Red Ring?

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

They may be a "threat" but dialogue can mean anything, like with Corvina.

I am talking about real lore, history, books, anything other than what people talk about. What lore is there for any number of soldiers in the Dominion right now?

Dialogue is real lore. If you're going to dismiss dialogue, then you're dismissing about three quarters of TES lore.

I provided two books also. Flight from the Thalmor and Rising Threat.

Bethesda rarely deals with numbers, the only mention to numbers is thousands of Nords dying in the Great War. So that would also mean thousands of Imperials, Bretons, Redguards etc.

If you want to dismiss a large part of lore, then you can do that. But don't use that as an argument in a debate. It doesn't work like that, you have gone on many times about what you can RP.

That would also mean thousands of Thalmor/dominion soldiers died as well, right?

I am not ignoring the dialogue, but asking if there is anything to back it up, other than more vague dialogue and a few books that do not prove that the Thalmor have a large enough army to kill the Empire right now. They are a threat, I just feel they are not that threat RIGHT NOW.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

They are a threat, I just feel they are not that threat RIGHT NOW.

So, basically you refuse to accept game lore provided by NPCs.

And you still find arguments against lore books written by Bethesda/NPC writers because the information given in these books is filled with gaps an rarely ever detailed at best.

Alright. Let's try the brain then.
Preparation. I highly doubt they would have ever decided to step into Cyrodiil without at least some consideration. Yeah, they did loose on the battlefield because they too were spread between Hammerfell and Cyrodiil, but next time we can be certain they will use everything on Cyrodiil only. And the march into Cyrodiil was a decision made during their campaign for Hammerfell; if they had retreated completely there and send those forces east instead the questline in Skyrim would mainly focus on protecting Imperial refugees from the on-marching Dominion. At Hammerfell they already had trouble keeping the rebellions at bay, and no reinforcements were sent there; we don't know why, maybe because they really had no man to spa, or because they kept a good force at home to keep their internal hierarchy.
Politics. Don't forget that the Thalmor conquered their first 2 provinces not by war, but intrigues instead. They have access to Cyrodiil, and therefore they have access to people who could be bought quite easily, especially now that maybe the Emperor has been assassinated. That would suit perfectly with the top secret purges; as long as the people in Cyrodiil and the rest of Tamriel don't know about this they won't have too many hind thoughts about even letting them in. At least I doubt the Bosmer knew about what the Thalmor had in mind with mass murders and Talos knows what else happens there.

I'd write more but my fingers are itching to play, so I'll leave the rest to DrunkenMage or whoever still has some patience to answer and discuss out stuff that has been repeated over the last 631 pages.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Man, what people "talk about" is a very large part of how we know anything of what's currently happening in 4E 201. If you've got to have precise numbers before you believe the Thalmor are an understood and canonical threat, then I think you're going to be disappointed.

That may well be part of Bethesda's approach, but you can't dismiss what DrunkenMage has quoted. It's every bit as relevant to the conversation. In your earlier posts, you were saying that the war didn't matter because RP makes anything and any perspective possible. Then why spend time quibbling about precise numbers?

I do not trust it because it is vague. Dialogue can mean anything, and is not a good indicator of truth. I need undisputed truth, not hearsay.

As others have said here before me, the problem is that what you dismiss as hearsay is one of the main vehicles that Bethesda uses to convey lore and circumstantial facts. It's not as if we see Ulfric totally trivializing the Thalmor, despite how much bravado he and Galmar may speak with. He expresses concern about the very thing Imperial-aligned NPCs do, and I cannot believe that that's an accident. There is a measure of anxiety on both sides of the civil war about them and the coming consequences. DrunkenMage and others have pointed out lore books that contain historical context and assertions of relative and respective strength at the time of the Great War. One reason why the current civil war is so contentious is because both sides have their own ideas about the ramifications of one another's victory in terms of Thalmor influence and resurgence.

Lore books, player observation, and NPC dialogue are sources of knowledge about circumstances present and past. Where Bethesda means for there to be divergence of opinion and controversy, they offer it in the form of conflicting testimony in both textual and verbal form. If you dismiss such information sources as being unreliable because you don't witness it yourself, then we might as well believe the Great War was made up as well - since we don't experience it as players.

You don't have to accept what the game presents, be it for the sake of RP or whatever else. But to argue in the same breath that the war doesn't matter, that everything is open to varying interpretations, and yet also that there's no way that the Thalmor are really a great threat like the characters say because there is no military roster available seems problematic.

For the record, I understand wanting some hard and fast numbers. But I think you're looking for something that just does not exist - at least at this stage. No doubt we'll get more information in the next ES installment, but what we have to go on right now is given to us in the game.