Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Actually, the Stormcloaks are jsut the Nords saying "enough is enough" And the Thalmor are exploiting that to weaken the Empire by keeping the Civil War going for as long as the THALMOR NEED IT TO.

Stormcloaks are certain Nords. Since it is a Civil War, Nord vs Nord. Hold vs Hold, Jarl vs Jarl. The Thalmor are exploiting the Nords to distract the Empire. Skyrim's internal fighting have been going on for a few years, the death of Torygg several months prior to the start of the game is what caught the Empire's attention. Stormcloaks have been active and getting into skirmishes for years, so it was between the Holds for sometime.

The Legion stepped in to restore order after the death of Torygg.

And they could have done something AFTER ULFRIC WENT NEAR TREASON AT THE MOOT. Seems to me that the Empire wants to be the hero as well.

End result is that neither side is truly right or truly wrong, unless you try to fit lore and opinions together. Nothing tells me That Torygg would have agree with Ulfric and break away when there were reasons he did not when the moot happened, which was the best time to do so. Nothing tells me that Ulfric is actively being racist, except that he is not focusing on the safety of his hold and focusing on the fight over skyrim. Nothing you posted tells me anything that you are saying because the lore does not say anything like a person's opinion.

 

[DrunkenMage]

And they could have done something AFTER ULFRIC WENT NEAR TREASON AT THE MOOT. Seems to me that the Empire wants to be the hero as well.

Do what? The moot was between the Jarls? What are they going to do, snitch Ulfric in for being close to treason? He didn't commit treason during the moot.

So if the Empire did something to Ulfric because he was close to something but didn't actually do it. You would probably be in here arguing against that instead.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

And they could have done something AFTER ULFRIC WENT NEAR TREASON AT THE MOOT. Seems to me that the Empire wants to be the hero as well.

Do what? The moot was between the Jarls? What are they going to do, snitch Ulfric in for being close to treason? He didn't commit treason during the moot.

So if the Empire did something to Ulfric because he was close to something but didn't actually do it. You would probably be in here arguing against that instead.

Not like you think, Imperialist. Just talk to him, and explain the situation, because he was Jarl for a sort time, and not at the time the WGC was accepted by Skyrim without the Jarls being consulted on it.

You get why the Stormcloaks are upset with the Empire? The fact that Skyrim was essentially "willingly-forced" into the WGC because the High King did not call for a moot on it?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Not like you think, Imperialist. Just talk to him, and explain the situation, because he was Jarl for a sort time, and not at the time the WGC was accepted by Skyrim without the Jarls being consulted on it.

You get why the Stormcloaks are upset with the Empire? The fact that Skyrim was essentially "willingly-forced" into the WGC because the High King did not call for a moot on it?

This is Skyrim, the province where you send a man your axe instead of talking. You don't exactly sit down with the Jarls and hold hands.

Either you're a King who commands or you're a King who loses the respect of his subjects because all he does is seek advice from another. You're not a High King if you need to get your hand held by calling a moot anytime you're faced with making a decision.

You Stormcloak supporters amaze me. They come in here saying Elisif is bad because she relies on her Steward due to her being in mourning over the death of her husband in front of her eyes. Now it is the King should of consulted the Jarls and got their advice and let them decide.

How is this any form of a valid argument? Especially since Ulfric himself states "We will do whatever I decide is in the best interests of Skyrim. Are we clear?"

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Not like you think, Imperialist. Just talk to him, and explain the situation, because he was Jarl for a sort time, and not at the time the WGC was accepted by Skyrim without the Jarls being consulted on it.

You get why the Stormcloaks are upset with the Empire? The fact that Skyrim was essentially "willingly-forced" into the WGC because the High King did not call for a moot on it?

This is Skyrim, the province where you send a man your axe instead of talking. You don't exactly sit down with the Jarls and hold hands.

Either you're a King who commands or you're a King who loses the respect of his subjects because all he does is seek advice from another. You're not a High King if you need to get your hand held by calling a moot anytime you're faced with making a decision.

You Stormcloak supporters amaze me. They come in here saying Elisif is bad because she relies on her Steward due to her being in mourning over the death of her husband in front of her eyes. Now it is the King should of consulted the Jarls and got their advice and let them decide.

How is this any form of a valid argument? Especially since Ulfric himself states "We will do whatever I decide (Because I am the leader of the Rebellion/future High King, I have the final say as to the stormcloak side of this truce) is in the best interests of Skyrim. Are we clear?"

What about Jarls having the final say of their Hold's policy? What about the High King getting the final say for all of Skyrim? Ulfric, as leader of the Rebellion, has the final say for the truce. This is the cold hard truth, leaders get advice from their peers/advisors, but can stick to the decision they want to make or listen to that advice and take it. simple truth.

In the end, I disagree with both sides on things, yet also agree with both sides on their causes. Others will tell you the same thing as to why they choose that side, that they have all these reasons but agree with that side in the end.

 

[DrunkenMage]

What about Jarls having the final say of their Hold's policy? What about the High King getting the final say for all of Skyrim? Ulfric, as leader of the Rebellion, has the final say for the truce. This is the cold hard truth, leaders get advice from their peers/advisors, but can stick to the decision they want to make or listen to that advice and take it. simple truth.

Skyrim isn't a democracy and it doesn't get up for debate when the King decides. Istlod was High King and did what he did as King, if you don't like how the Nords run their province?

If you actually believe that if Ulfric was King, he is going to call a moot every time he's going to make a decision? What Ulfric said during Season Unending reflects his decision making process, you do whatever he decides. He isn't speaking like the leader of a rebellion, he's speaking like a King.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

What about Jarls having the final say of their Hold's policy? What about the High King getting the final say for all of Skyrim? Ulfric, as leader of the Rebellion, has the final say for the truce. This is the cold hard truth, leaders get advice from their peers/advisors, but can stick to the decision they want to make or listen to that advice and take it. simple truth.

Skyrim isn't a democracy and it doesn't get up for debate when the King decides. Istlod was High King and did what he did as King, if you don't like how the Nords run their province?

If you actually believe that if Ulfric was King, he is going to call a moot every time he's going to make a decision? What Ulfric said during Season Unending reflects his decision making process, you do whatever he decides. He isn't speaking like the leader of a rebellion, he's speaking like a King.

Because Jarls are kings. and again, Ulfric woul dhave the final say, like Istlod. I am not saying they had to call the moot, just that the immediate acceptance of the WGC irked the Jarls because their opinions were not sought. Balgruuf says this himself, nobody asked the Jarls whether they fully agree with the White-Gold Concordant.

I disagree that the Empire had no choice but to accept the Terms of the WGC as they were, but I also disagree with the idea that Skyrim SHOULD be Independent, and feel that the rebels are haughty/full of themselves.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Because Jarls are kings. and again, Ulfric woul dhave the final say, like Istlod. I am not saying they had to call the moot, just that the immediate acceptance of the WGC irked the Jarls because their opinions were not sought. Balgruuf says this himself, nobody asked the Jarls whether they fully agree with the White-Gold Concordant.

Jarls aren't exactly Kings, a Jarl is a Chief. The Jarls didn't have be asked, they're minor nobles in the large scale of the Empire. They were told by their King, whom they all swore loyalty to. They didn't have to like it, nobody liked it.

I disagree that the Empire had no choice but to accept the Terms of the WGC as they were, but I also disagree with the idea that Skyrim SHOULD be Independent, and feel that the rebels are haughty/full of themselves.

We're not even fully aware of what the entire terms of the treaty are. It is highly unlikely four years of warfare and several months of peace talks came to the conclusion of a grand treaty with three lines. The Empire wasn't in a position to change the major three which are disliked. The Blades were all but destroyed during the years prior and during the war. Southern Hammerfell was already occupied by Dominion forces and the Banning of Talos was always going to be their demand.

The Empire wasn't in a good position at the end of the war. They had lost three entire Legions and the remaining Legions were under half strength. The Empire was weaker than the Thalmor prior to the war, the Empire was even weaker after the war. The Thalmor had two armies engaged in the war. It took three armies of the Empire to defeat one of theirs. The Empire at the end of the war had no idea what the Thalmor had, hell the Blades didn't even realize the Thalmor could do the Great War.

You say the Empire didn't have to accept the treaty? What makes you even say that? The Empire didn't even have enough soldiers to restore order in Cyrodiil, Skyrim and High Rock. Cyrodiil erupted into violence as criminal gangs took advantage, High Rock lost the city of Wayrest, Skyrim lost the Reach for two years.

Had the Empire rejected the White-Gold Concordat, do you really think the Empire would still be there? With their petty number of Legions remaining at half strength, they would still have to split their forces to restore order in the provinces but also keep Legions engaged on the border as the Dominion did their border skirmishes like the Second Era. The Empire would collapse, from the inside.

The Empire would still have to send soldiers to Hammerfell to assist the Redguards, they would still need soldiers in Cyrodiil to maintain order and they would also have to keep the borders protected in the event the Thalmor managed to muster another army. They still had untouched provinces full of Khajiit and Bosmer soldiers.

If I was the Thalmor, I would use Valenwood and Elsweyr as staging points to conduct raids on villages and cities. Legion can't protect all of Cyrodiil, watch the border, fight in Hammerfell and restore order in Skyrim & High Rock. The price of common goods would raise, bandits would raid the farms for supplies. Populations would turn desperate and there would be mass riots.

The Empire would simply crumble due to loss of Imperial authority. The provinces would take advantage. During the Civil War in Skyrim, that petty little war. We can take a look at the issues they are facing, now we'll times that by thousands in all provinces.

Proventus: "My lord, since Ulfric Stormcloak's uprising, the cost of goods has doubled. I'll need more coin if I'm to provision us properly."
Balgruuf: "Our coffers are nearly empty. I can scarcely afford to pay the guards, and we need every one of them in these troubled times. You'll have to make do with what we have, Proventus."

Olfina: "Did you raise your prices, Carlotta?"
Carlotta: "I had to. The farmers are charging me double for the produce I sell."
Olfina: "Let me guess, they're saying it's because of this trouble with the Stormcloaks?"
Carlotta: "Exactly. Road patrols were cut in half because the Jarl needed soldiers. Now the bandits are bolder than ever. They've been raiding the farms for food, and supplies are scarcer than ever."

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Because Jarls are kings. and again, Ulfric woul dhave the final say, like Istlod. I am not saying they had to call the moot, just that the immediate acceptance of the WGC irked the Jarls because their opinions were not sought. Balgruuf says this himself, nobody asked the Jarls whether they fully agree with the White-Gold Concordant.

Jarls aren't exactly Kings, a Jarl is a Chief. The Jarls didn't have be asked, they're minor nobles in the large scale of the Empire. They were told by their King, whom they all swore loyalty to. They didn't have to like it, nobody liked it.

I disagree that the Empire had no choice but to accept the Terms of the WGC as they were, but I also disagree with the idea that Skyrim SHOULD be Independent, and feel that the rebels are haughty/full of themselves.

We're not even fully aware of what the entire terms of the treaty are. It is highly unlikely four years of warfare and several months of peace talks came to the conclusion of a grand treaty with three lines. The Empire wasn't in a position to change the major three which are disliked. The Blades were all but destroyed during the years prior and during the war. Southern Hammerfell was already occupied by Dominion forces and the Banning of Talos was always going to be their demand.

The Empire wasn't in a good position at the end of the war. They had lost three entire Legions and the remaining Legions were under half strength. The Empire was weaker than the Thalmor prior to the war, the Empire was even weaker after the war. The Thalmor had two armies engaged in the war. It took three armies of the Empire to defeat one of theirs. The Empire at the end of the war had no idea what the Thalmor had, hell the Blades didn't even realize the Thalmor could do the Great War.

You say the Empire didn't have to accept the treaty? What makes you even say that? The Empire didn't even have enough soldiers to restore order in Cyrodiil, Skyrim and High Rock. Cyrodiil erupted into violence as criminal gangs took advantage, High Rock lost the city of Wayrest, Skyrim lost the Reach for two years.

Had the Empire rejected the White-Gold Concordat, do you really think the Empire would still be there? With their petty number of Legions remaining at half strength, they would still have to split their forces to restore order in the provinces but also keep Legions engaged on the border as the Dominion did their border skirmishes like the Second Era. The Empire would collapse, from the inside.

The Empire would still have to send soldiers to Hammerfell to assist the Redguards, they would still need soldiers in Cyrodiil to maintain order and they would also have to keep the borders protected in the event the Thalmor managed to muster another army. They still had untouched provinces full of Khajiit and Bosmer soldiers.

If I was the Thalmor, I would use Valenwood and Elsweyr as staging points to conduct raids on villages and cities. Legion can't protect all of Cyrodiil, watch the border, fight in Hammerfell and restore order in Skyrim & High Rock. The price of common goods would raise, bandits would raid the farms for supplies. Populations would turn desperate and there would be mass riots.

The Empire would simply crumble due to loss of Imperial authority. The provinces would take advantage. During the Civil War in Skyrim, that petty little war. We can take a look at the issues they are facing, now we'll times that by thousands in all provinces.

Proventus: "My lord, since Ulfric Stormcloak's uprising, the cost of goods has doubled. I'll need more coin if I'm to provision us properly."
Balgruuf: "Our coffers are nearly empty. I can scarcely afford to pay the guards, and we need every one of them in these troubled times. You'll have to make do with what we have, Proventus."

Olfina: "Did you raise your prices, Carlotta?"
Carlotta: "I had to. The farmers are charging me double for the produce I sell."
Olfina: "Let me guess, they're saying it's because of this trouble with the Stormcloaks?"
Carlotta: "Exactly. Road patrols were cut in half because the Jarl needed soldiers. Now the bandits are bolder than ever. They've been raiding the farms for food, and supplies are scarcer than ever."

First, Jarls are Chiefs, which are actually equal to kings, FOR THEIR HOLDS. Like the High King hold power to make the final say in ALL of Skyrim, Jarls hold final say for their holds. End of that discussion.

Second of all, the Empire DOES have soldiers on the dominions borders, so the raiding is not that likely to happen unless they use the Justiciars. I did not say they did not have to, just that they did not have to accept the SAME ultimatum as from before the GW. They could have negotiated the treaty to be more in-line with the Empire, as in MAKE IT FAVOR THEM MORE THAN IT DID THE THALMOR. What would the Thalmor do if the treaty ended up leaning to the Empire? Guard their borders on the empire? The only reason Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are a problem is because of the WGC being seen as step one in the attack on the Nord way of life.

Again, both sides are idiotic and make choices people hate, while the causes are both just. I tend to look purely at the causes and see which one I agree with more, and not the unbiased facts that already biased people tend to view as their facts.

 

[DrunkenMage]

First, Jarls are Chiefs, which are actually equal to kings, FOR THEIR HOLDS. Like the High King hold power to make the final say in ALL of Skyrim, Jarls hold final say for their holds. End of that discussion.

When using the term 'King' I was referring to High King. Ulfric is a Jarl, he is ruler of Eastmarch. During Season Unending he was speaking as High King which fits his entire rebellion. Being the "True High King" It doesn't matter what say the Jarls have, the High King made the decision therefor it was all of Skyrim. I have no idea what you're on about by saying the Jarls have final say for their holds. They do, unless the High King says otherwise. Which is the case, so your entire point is?

Second of all, the Empire DOES have soldiers on the dominions borders, so the raiding is not that likely to happen unless they use the Justiciars.

....Did you read my post? They have soldiers on the borders twenty six years later. During the Great War, they had nothing on the Dominion's borders. They were overrun, had the White-Gold Concordat not been accepted the Empire would still be at war, therefor they would be fighting in Hammerfell once more, restoring order in Cyrodiil and dealing with raids from the Aldmeri. What part of that aren't you understanding? There is a difference between twenty six years ago and twenty six years later. You're using what the Empire is now, as some kind of defense for twenty six years ago.

I did not say they did not have to, just that they did not have to accept the SAME ultimatum as from before the GW. They could have negotiated the treaty to be more in-line with the Empire, as in MAKE IT FAVOR THEM MORE THAN IT DID THE THALMOR. What would the Thalmor do if the treaty ended up leaning to the Empire? Guard their borders on the empire? The only reason Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are a problem is because of the WGC being seen as step one in the attack on the Nord way of life.

They didn't accept the same ultimatum. So you're either ignoring facts or just confused. It is almost the same, not the same. What makes you so sure they didn't have to accept the White-Gold Concordat? You have provided nothing helpful other than saying they didn't have to. I mentioned a lot in favor?

They didn't really gain much from the treaty in the end. The Blades had already been basically destroyed, they lost Southern Hammerfell after five years of guerrilla warfare. The only thing the Thalmor gained was the banning of Talos. Which was so poorly enforced someone was able to shout about Talos for an entire week where the Thalmor had a presence, before being captured. The Nords all had little shrines to Talos, the Jarls still worshiped. The Legions still worshiped. Hell even the Emperor still did apparently, though I will have to check that out. (Apparently he has a Talos Amulet somewhere)

We don't even know all the terms of the White-Gold Concordat, I think we all can safely assume a temporary peace treaty between two major Empires would be longer than three lines.

The treaty in favor of the Aldmeri Dominion, makes sense. The Empire went to the Aldmeri for peace, not the other way around. Had the Aldmeri Dominion went to the Empire after they had lost, the terms would be in the Empire's favor. The Empire went to the Dominion, so if someone comes to you wanting peace, are you really going to make it in their favor or yours? It is like people in this thread, are unable to grasp the concept on how a treaty works.

Empire came to Dominion needing peace. Dominion grants peace, in their favor. Common sense on that one...? Like what exactly are you suggesting? The Empire went to the Aldmeri Dominion for peace, but should of been "We come to you for a truce... make it in our favor, even though we're coming to you."

Again, both sides are idiotic and make choices people hate, while the causes are both just. I tend to look purely at the causes and see which one I agree with more, and not the unbiased facts that already biased people tend to view as their facts.

Except you are biased too, so it makes no difference.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

First, Jarls are Chiefs, which are actually equal to kings, FOR THEIR HOLDS. Like the High King hold power to make the final say in ALL of Skyrim, Jarls hold final say for their holds. End of that discussion.

When using the term 'King' I was referring to High King. Ulfric is a Jarl, he is ruler of Eastmarch. During Season Unending he was speaking as High King which fits his entire rebellion. Being the "True High King" It doesn't matter what say the Jarls have, the High King made the decision therefor it was all of Skyrim. I have no idea what you're on about by saying the Jarls have final say for their holds. They do, unless the High King says otherwise. Which is the case, so your entire point is?

and yet the High King still has advisors right? Would he not listen to their opinions? The point is that the truce where he says that was about a temporary truce to defeat Alduinm so Ulfric HAD THE FINAL SAY THERE, no power-hunger, not stepping over his station, nothing.

Second of all, the Empire DOES have soldiers on the dominions borders, so the raiding is not that likely to happen unless they use the Justiciars.

....Did you read my post? They have soldiers on the borders twenty six years later. During the Great War, they had nothing on the Dominion's borders. They were overrun, had the White-Gold Concordat not been accepted the Empire would still be at war, therefor they would be fighting in Hammerfell once more, restoring order in Cyrodiil and dealing with raids from the Aldmeri. What part of that aren't you understanding? There is a difference between twenty six years ago and twenty six years later. You're using what the Empire is now, as some kind of defense for twenty six years ago.

I was not talking about 26 years ago. I saw no evidence that they had any raids back then, and that is what the guards are there to prevent. A CURRENT INVASION FROM THE DOMINION. you did not prove they were raiding, but they invaded by surprise because the Empire was dumb enough to think the Thalmor was not going to invade. Make a threat and keep it scares the hell out of people

I did not say they did not have to, just that they did not have to accept the SAME ultimatum as from before the GW. They could have negotiated the treaty to be more in-line with the Empire, as in MAKE IT FAVOR THEM MORE THAN IT DID THE THALMOR. What would the Thalmor do if the treaty ended up leaning to the Empire? Guard their borders on the empire? The only reason Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are a problem is because of the WGC being seen as step one in the attack on the Nord way of life.

They didn't accept the same ultimatum. So you're either ignoring facts or just confused. It is almost the same, not the same. What makes you so sure they didn't have to accept the White-Gold Concordat? You have provided nothing helpful other than saying they didn't have to. I mentioned a lot in favor?

They didn't really gain much from the treaty in the end. The Blades had already been basically destroyed, they lost Southern Hammerfell after five years of guerrilla warfare. The only thing the Thalmor gained was the banning of Talos. Which was so poorly enforced someone was able to shout about Talos for an entire week where the Thalmor had a presence, before being captured. The Nords all had little shrines to Talos, the Jarls still worshiped. The Legions still worshiped. Hell even the Emperor still did apparently, though I will have to check that out. (Apparently he has a Talos Amulet somewhere)

We don't even know all the terms of the White-Gold Concordat, I think we all can safely assume a temporary peace treaty between two major Empires would be longer than three lines.

The treaty in favor of the Aldmeri Dominion, makes sense. The Empire went to the Aldmeri for peace, not the other way around. Had the Aldmeri Dominion went to the Empire after they had lost, the terms would be in the Empire's favor. The Empire went to the Dominion, so if someone comes to you wanting peace, are you really going to make it in their favor or yours? It is like people in this thread, are unable to grasp the concept on how a treaty works.

Empire came to Dominion needing peace. Dominion grants peace, in their favor. Common sense on that one...? Like what exactly are you suggesting? The Empire went to the Aldmeri Dominion for peace, but should of been "We come to you for a truce... make it in our favor, even though we're coming to you."

Show me the entire thing then. Show me where it says anywhere in there that has the Empire's favor. As far as I know the dominion won the war with the WGC, and that is what the stormcloaks look to as a failing of the Empire. The best thing to do is to negotiate a totally even treaty, where the Dominion has absolutely no power in Imperial territories like Skyrim, even if there is moron running loose.

Again, both sides are idiotic and make choices people hate, while the causes are both just. I tend to look purely at the causes and see which one I agree with more, and not the unbiased facts that already biased people tend to view as their facts.

Except you are biased too, so it makes no difference.

I am biased against choosing a side that I feel is not right, and that is for both sides. I think the War is stupid and the only way to make a choice is not lore or facts or laws or whatever. it is personal opinions and bias, so keep the "this is simply what happened and means nothing for your bias unless you put your bias into the lore" lore, like Torygg's death. Ulfric challenged Torygg, Torygg accepted, and then Torygg died. Gives nothing to the reasons Ulfric did so, so it means nothing unless you put your biases into it.

Your posts are extremely imperial-biased, and mine are neutral/hate everyone in the war-biased.

I understand your point, and mostly accept it. I just know where the blame truly lies, and it is not Ulfric or the Stormcloaks. it is those pointy-eared racist Thalmor.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

in the end. The Civil War was to be longer, and more complex, but it got cut to take a back seat to saving the world from a bunch of Dragons. you even get a quest to form a temporary truce to end the dragon threat over the Civil War. Seems like the War was meant to be bad from the start, so nobody would argue over it.

 

[DrunkenMage]

and yet the High King still has advisors right? Would he not listen to their opinions? The point is that the truce where he says that was about a temporary truce to defeat Alduinm so Ulfric HAD THE FINAL SAY THERE, no power-hunger, not stepping over his station, nothing.

The High King has his Court. Ulfric had the say of giving away entire Holds. Meaning his authority was over other Jarls. Therefor speaking as their High King.

I was not talking about 26 years ago. I saw no evidence that they had any raids back then, and that is what the guards are there to prevent. A CURRENT INVASION FROM THE DOMINION. you did not prove they were raiding, but they invaded by surprise because the Empire was dumb enough to think the Thalmor was not going to invade. Make a threat and keep it scares the hell out of people

You are using now as evidence, I was speaking if the Empire didn't go for peace twenty six years ago. I also said historically the Aldmeri Dominion have been known to do raids and border skirmishes, they did it during the Second Era. What part of that skipped over your head? Are you reading what you want and that is it?

Twenty six years ago, where you're saying they didn't need the White-Gold Concordat. You're using post White-Gold Concordat as evidence, mentioning guards and Justiciars. Twenty six years ago, there were no Legions on the border.

The Empire had no idea the Thalmor were going to start the Great War. The Blades who realized the threat of the Thalmor, who were fighting the Thalmor from the shadows didn't see the Great War coming. The Empire knew it faced war when the Thalmor Ambassador arrived and the Empire rejected the ultimatum. Hence why they say that is when the war started, it was still a surprise attack because the Aldmeri Dominion invaded within days. I don't even know what you're going on about when saying about making a threat and keeping it. The Empire knew it was at war when they rejected the Ultimatum. Doesn't make it any less of a surprise when your armies are spread out across four provinces, now does it?

Show me the entire thing then. Show me where it says anywhere in there that has the Empire's favor. As far as I know the dominion won the war with the WGC, and that is what the stormcloaks look to as a failing of the Empire. The best thing to do is to negotiate a totally even treaty, where the Dominion has absolutely no power in Imperial territories like Skyrim, even if there is moron running loose.

Again, reading what you want to read. I didn't say the treaty was in favor of the Empire. The Empire came to the Aldmeri Dominion for peace, so of course it is going to be in favor of the Aldmeri Dominion. What part of that aren't you getting? You go to someone for peace, you think they're going to make it in your favor or their favor?

I am biased against choosing a side that I feel is not right, and that is for both sides. I think the War is stupid and the only way to make a choice is not lore or facts or laws or whatever. it is personal opinions and bias, so keep the "this is simply what happened and means nothing for your bias unless you put your bias into the lore" lore, like Torygg's death. Ulfric challenged Torygg, Torygg accepted, and then Torygg died. Gives nothing to the reasons Ulfric did so, so it means nothing unless you put your biases into it.

Your posts are extremely imperial-biased, and mine are neutral/hate everyone in the war-biased.

I understand your point, and mostly accept it. I just know where the blame truly lies, and it is not Ulfric or the Stormcloaks. it is those pointy-eared racist Thalmor.

People have all the personal opinions they want, it is why they choose a side. Lore and facts are there for your own knowledge and if you favor the lore for one then you pick one. If you mean to tell everyone in this thread "Hey, don't use lore, don't use facts. Go with what you feel is right." There is something called look before jumping. If you truly want to go into a faction ignoring everything about the war, ignoring any facts about the situation. By all means, do so. But you can't really use it as an argument in this thread.

My posts can change rather quickly, I can throw up Pro-Empire and Pro-Stormcloak in exactly the same intensity. And yet, I don't deny facts and lore. I can still present an argument for the other side. I don't need to go "Well I support this side cause I don't use facts or lore, cause that is silly"

I'm not as biased as you might like to think. I can see the other side of the picture and defend that side of it just the same. Personal choice on choosing the Empire.

Your bias tends to be more, "I can RP this" "I can deny that" "Both suck" etc etc.

 

[Sven]

Wow we are still on the Dark Elves thing?It's an Imperial vs Stormcloak thread not the Dark Elf Justice thread.

fluff the Dark Elves.Ugly as oblivion.I bet they are cramped in the Grey Quarter so people don't get seizures from their looks.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Wow we are still on the Dark Elves thing?It's an Imperial vs Stormcloak thread not the Dark Elf Justice thread.

fluff the Dark Elves.Ugly as oblivion.I bet they are cramped in the Grey Quarter so people don't get seizures from their looks.

nope. Just going on about how lore is not that important as the Civil War is nothing more than a battle of opinion. And that the Thalmor are the ones truly pulling the strings and deserve full blame for the Civil War, none of the puppets.

 

[Sven]

Wow we are still on the Dark Elves thing?It's an Imperial vs Stormcloak thread not the Dark Elf Justice thread.

fluff the Dark Elves.Ugly as oblivion.I bet they are cramped in the Grey Quarter so people don't get seizures from their looks.

nope. Just going on about how lore is not that important as the Civil War is nothing more than a battle of opinion. And that the Thalmor are the ones truly pulling the strings and deserve full blame for the Civil War, none of the puppets.

Thats not true either

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Wow we are still on the Dark Elves thing?It's an Imperial vs Stormcloak thread not the Dark Elf Justice thread.

fluff the Dark Elves.Ugly as oblivion.I bet they are cramped in the Grey Quarter so people don't get seizures from their looks.

nope. Just going on about how lore is not that important as the Civil War is nothing more than a battle of opinion. And that the Thalmor are the ones truly pulling the strings and deserve full blame for the Civil War, none of the puppets.

Thats not true either

Tell me what facts state that Ulfric is indeed racist, other than the Grey Quarter, which he ignores the entire city. Tell me what facts that state Ulfric's reason for Challenging Torygg to a duel that was not based on bias against Ulfric. The truth his that Ulfric would have no reason to anything had the Thalmor not warred with the Empire long enough to get the Empire to sign the WGC. The whole mess is the Thalmor's plot to weaken the enemy. It is their puppet show and they are the puppet masters.

 

[Ru;indil]

nope. Just going on about how lore is not that important as the Civil War is nothing more than a battle of opinion. And that the Thalmor are the ones truly pulling the strings and deserve full blame for the Civil War, none of the puppets.

Thats not true either

Tell me what facts state that Ulfric is indeed racist, other than the Grey Quarter, which he ignores the entire city. Tell me what facts that state Ulfric's reason for Challenging Torygg to a duel that was not based on bias against Ulfric. The truth his that Ulfric would have no reason to anything had the Thalmor not warred with the Empire long enough to get the Empire to sign the WGC. The whole mess is the Thalmor's plot to weaken the enemy. It is their puppet show and they are the puppet masters.

Ulfric is also racist towards the Forsworn , seeing that he fights for freedom to worship Talos yet he stomped on their culture during the Forsworn Uprising. It was a cultural difference and Ulfric did not have any right to do that.
Also, even though the WGC was signed, the Nords still worshipped Talos and there was no enforcement on the ban. But when Ulfric and his little militia started rebelling , the Empire came into play and the Thalmor also came to Skyrim. So basically, both Ulfric and the Thalmor are to blame for the Civil War. Neither of them takes more nor less blame.

Btw Drunkenmage, aren't you exhausted from all this arguments 600+pages continous :/?

 

[Sven]

Who even cares about the Forsworn?They are basically terrorists,making hits just like Osama.

Why don't they just get one of those Elven airships and crash it into Dragonsreach

 

[Pronged Pickle]

nope. Just going on about how lore is not that important as the Civil War is nothing more than a battle of opinion. And that the Thalmor are the ones truly pulling the strings and deserve full blame for the Civil War, none of the puppets.

Thats not true either

Tell me what facts state that Ulfric is indeed racist, other than the Grey Quarter, which he ignores the entire city. Tell me what facts that state Ulfric's reason for Challenging Torygg to a duel that was not based on bias against Ulfric. The truth his that Ulfric would have no reason to anything had the Thalmor not warred with the Empire long enough to get the Empire to sign the WGC. The whole mess is the Thalmor's plot to weaken the enemy. It is their puppet show and they are the puppet masters.

Just quoting to get your attention. The thread is about who to choose Imperials or Storm cloaks. Not to say that both sides are awful and that you can RP to change/avoid it or just destroy both sides (which the DB cannot do alone).

And then you accuse of DM, Nenlata, Anouk, etc. for being biased when they make statements that are backed up with lore? How long does this have to go on?