Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

I hat all that you said, but do I have the right to insult Ulfric to his face telling him that he CANNOT do what he wants because he is the ruler of his city? I do not, nor do the dunmer. They have no rights under someone who won't care for them, because in a country/province like Skyrim, the common folk are nothing but ants to the ones who are ruling.

And here I thought the Stormcloaks were fighting "for the people".

 

[Jeremius]

I hat all that you said, but do I have the right to insult Ulfric to his face telling him that he CANNOT do what he wants because he is the ruler of his city? I do not, nor do the dunmer. They have no rights under someone who won't care for them, because in a country/province like Skyrim, the common folk are nothing but ants to the ones who are ruling.

And here I thought the Stormcloaks were fighting "for the people".

They are fighting for the ruling race, which is nord. That is where the powers and rights lie, in who is in charge. Want to not be racially discriminated against? have someone who is not racist. Rights and protection only exist a long as the people in charge give it. They are in their rights not to as long as they keep the city orderly, because that is the only universal right in this kind of world (Skyrim is a medieval fantasy).

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

I hat all that you said, but do I have the right to insult Ulfric to his face telling him that he CANNOT do what he wants because he is the ruler of his city? I do not, nor do the dunmer. They have no rights under someone who won't care for them, because in a country/province like Skyrim, the common folk are nothing but ants to the ones who are ruling.

And here I thought the Stormcloaks were fighting "for the people".

They are fighting for the ruling race, which is nord. That is where the powers and rights lie, in who is in charge. Want to not be racially discriminated against? have someone who is not racist. Rights and protection only exist a long as the people in charge give it. They are in their rights not to as long as they keep the city orderly, because that is the only universal right in this kind of world (Skyrim is a medieval fantasy).

Do you read any George Orwell?

 

[Jeremius]

And here I thought the Stormcloaks were fighting "for the people".

They are fighting for the ruling race, which is nord. That is where the powers and rights lie, in who is in charge. Want to not be racially discriminated against? have someone who is not racist. Rights and protection only exist a long as the people in charge give it. They are in their rights not to as long as they keep the city orderly, because that is the only universal right in this kind of world (Skyrim is a medieval fantasy).

Do you read any George Orwell?

??? What does that have to do with rights of people who only have them when they law allows it?

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

They are fighting for the ruling race, which is nord. That is where the powers and rights lie, in who is in charge. Want to not be racially discriminated against? have someone who is not racist. Rights and protection only exist a long as the people in charge give it. They are in their rights not to as long as they keep the city orderly, because that is the only universal right in this kind of world (Skyrim is a medieval fantasy).

Do you read any George Orwell?

??? What does that have to do with rights of people who only have them when they law allows it?

Quite a lot. He writes a lot of books depicting nations like these making use of their "rights". It's not pretty, and never a good thing. Just because one has power, doesn't give them the right to use it.

 

[Jeremius]

Do you read any George Orwell?

??? What does that have to do with rights of people who only have them when they law allows it?

Quite a lot. He writes a lot of books depicting nations like these making use of their "rights". It's not pretty, and never a good thing. Just because one has power, doesn't give them the right to use it.

Do I have the right to tell Ulfric what he can/can't do in his city? No, because I am not the on in power there. If I was the one ruling the city, I could do anything to those policies. Since I am not, I do not have the right to Force Ulfric to change something that he might think is needed in order to keep the city from falling into chaos.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

??? What does that have to do with rights of people who only have them when they law allows it?

Quite a lot. He writes a lot of books depicting nations like these making use of their "rights". It's not pretty, and never a good thing. Just because one has power, doesn't give them the right to use it.

Do I have the right to tell Ulfric what he can/can't do in his city? No, because I am not the on in power there. If I was the one ruling the city, I could do anything to those policies. Since I am not, I do not have the right to Force Ulfric to change something that he might think is needed in order to keep the city from falling into chaos.

And where do these rights come from? They stem from the people. He cannot function as a leader without people to lead. Rights are a very sketchy thing, and eventually yhe debate would get to religion. But from what we know, Ulfric is a criminal, a traitor, and even dishonorable some of the ancient customs he is trying to stand for. I have every right to challenge him to trial by single combat, and chop off his head and be done with it if I'm a nord. Some would argue that the repressed have the right to depose their tormentors. The whole point of your argument is a matter of perspective which simply cannot stand. It even gets to the point of philosophical debating... which wouldnt gives a straight answer

 

[Jeremius]

Quite a lot. He writes a lot of books depicting nations like these making use of their "rights". It's not pretty, and never a good thing. Just because one has power, doesn't give them the right to use it.

Do I have the right to tell Ulfric what he can/can't do in his city? No, because I am not the on in power there. If I was the one ruling the city, I could do anything to those policies. Since I am not, I do not have the right to Force Ulfric to change something that he might think is needed in order to keep the city from falling into chaos.

And where do these rights come from? They stem from the people. He cannot function as a leader without people to lead. Rights are a very sketchy thing, and eventually yhe debate would get to religion. But from what we know, Ulfric is a criminal, a traitor, and even dishonorable some of the ancient customs he is trying to stand for. I have every right to challenge him to trial by single combat, and chop off his head and be done with it if I'm a nord. Some would argue that the repressed have the right to depose their tormentors. The whole point of your argument is a matter of perspective which simply cannot stand. It even gets to the point of philosophical debating... which wouldnt gives a straight answer

And Ulfric has the right to ensure that there is peace in his city. The dunmer complain because back in Morrowind, their race was at the top of the totem pole, now they are at the bottom of the barrel. In Skyrim, the Nords are in charge, so you would expect that the rulers look out for the majority (Nord) interests first. Just how it is.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Do I have the right to tell Ulfric what he can/can't do in his city? No, because I am not the on in power there. If I was the one ruling the city, I could do anything to those policies. Since I am not, I do not have the right to Force Ulfric to change something that he might think is needed in order to keep the city from falling into chaos.

And where do these rights come from? They stem from the people. He cannot function as a leader without people to lead. Rights are a very sketchy thing, and eventually yhe debate would get to religion. But from what we know, Ulfric is a criminal, a traitor, and even dishonorable some of the ancient customs he is trying to stand for. I have every right to challenge him to trial by single combat, and chop off his head and be done with it if I'm a nord. Some would argue that the repressed have the right to depose their tormentors. The whole point of your argument is a matter of perspective which simply cannot stand. It even gets to the point of philosophical debating... which wouldnt gives a straight answer

And Ulfric has the right to ensure that there is peace in his city. The dunmer complain because back in Morrowind, their race was at the top of the totem pole, now they are at the bottom of the barrel. In Skyrim, the Nords are in charge, so you would expect that the rulers look out for the majority (Nord) interests first. Just how it is.

No, they complain because a large part of their homeland burned in a volcano eruption, and they were forced to travel a vast distance on foot, many of them dieing along the way, in extremely inhospitable environments. When they finally find shelter, what do they get? Poverty in the Grey Quarter.

 

[Jeremius]

No, they complain because a large part of their homeland burned in a volcano eruption, and they were forced to travel a vast distance on foot, many of them dieing along the way, in extremely inhospitable environments. When they finally find shelter, what do they get? Poverty in the Grey Quarter.

Where is the grey quarter? In the heart of Stormcloak territory, the seat of their power. Ulfric leads the rebellion, and is the Jarl. He makes the laws and rules the city how he wants, just like Elisif runs her city her way and Balgruff does thing in his hold his way.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

No, they complain because a large part of their homeland burned in a volcano eruption, and they were forced to travel a vast distance on foot, many of them dieing along the way, in extremely inhospitable environments. When they finally find shelter, what do they get? Poverty in the Grey Quarter.

Where is the grey quarter? In the heart of Stormcloak territory, the seat of their power. Ulfric leads the rebellion, and is the Jarl. He makes the laws and rules the city how he wants, just like Elisif runs her city her way and Balgruff does thing in his hold his way.

How did they end up in the heart of Stormcloak power? Because Windhelm was the first city many came across, and they simply didn't have the will to go any further. Now they are stuck there, because they can't earn enough money or food or even protection to make the trip to a more welcoming hold. Why can't they? Ulfric's "right" to do as he likes in his own hold.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Dunmer complain because they don't get basic things, which are entitled to them as citizens of Eastmarch. They pay taxes, work like every other citizen. Yet they get less guard patrols, and the poorly standing buildings, which over the years have fallen into disrepair.

Ulfric as the Jarl of Windhelm has the duty to ensure the welfare of the people in his city.

It also isn't just the Dunmer complaining, the Argonians were banished from living in the city walls. Forced to all live under one roof out on the docks.

 

[Jeremius]

The Dunmer complain because they don't get basic things, which are entitled to them as citizens of Eastmarch. They pay taxes, work like every other citizen. Yet they get less guard patrols, and the poorly standing buildings, which over the years have fallen into disrepair.

Ulfric as the Jarl of Windhelm has the duty to ensure the welfare of the people in his city.

It also isn't just the Dunmer complaining, the Argonians were banished from living in the city walls. Forced to all live under one roof out on the docks.

again, Do I have the right to force Ulfric to do something? I do not think so.

 

[DrunkenMage]

again, Do I have the right to force Ulfric to do something? I do not think so.

It's called joining the Legion.

"Ulfric thinks he can hide behind the walls of his castle. But we will fight our way in and drag him out through the rubble to face justice." - General Tullius

 

[Jeremius]

again, Do I have the right to force Ulfric to do something? I do not think so.

It's called joining the Legion.

"Ulfric thinks he can hide behind the walls of his castle. But we will fight our way in and drag him out through the rubble to face justice." - General Tullius

Or just staying out of windhelm works just as well. Seriously, Racial ordering/segregation is not proof that Ulfric is evil, just that maybe Windhelm is not the city to live in.

Besides, In-game, nothing changes unless I make it change, so this means little.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Or just staying out of windhelm works just as well.

Because ignoring issues always works well...

Seriously, Racial ordering/segregation is not proof that Ulfric is evil, just that maybe Windhelm is not the city to live in.

No one is calling Ulfric evil? But seriously, 'not the city to live in' that is your wise decision making. Instead of trying to do something, lets just avoid it all together.

Besides, In-game, nothing changes unless I make it change, so this means little.

You can make it change. That is the point, you can do something about it.

Your logic on this is strange, by the same token I could merely say "Besides, In-game, the Fourth Era doesn't happen unless I put Skyrim in the disc tray, so this means little."

Dragons don't return and the incident in Helgen never occurred.

 

[Jeremius]

Or just staying out of windhelm works just as well.

Because ignoring issues always works well...

Seriously, Racial ordering/segregation is not proof that Ulfric is evil, just that maybe Windhelm is not the city to live in.

No one is calling Ulfric evil? But seriously, 'not the city to live in' that is your wise decision making. Instead of trying to do something, lets just avoid it all together.

Besides, In-game, nothing changes unless I make it change, so this means little.

You can make it change. That is the point, you can do something about it.

Your logic on this is strange, by the same token I could merely say "Besides, In-game, the Fourth Era doesn't happen unless I put Skyrim in the disc tray, so this means little."

Dragons don't return and the incident in Helgen never occurred.

This is it? Really? Thought you would have some lore-evidence on why I should try to do something, when not getting involved in game means that Ulfric never takes over Skyrim, which means none of what people say happens actually does. The game is not dynamically independent from the PC getting involved in something. So as far as I know, the Civil War stays a stalemate unless I get involved. no one loses the Civil War if I do not play the Civil War.

for the "it matters little" thing, I mean, what I do in-game means little to the overall canon because my Choices mean nothing to this world's overall canon, so I find it better to not get involved.

Nothing really changes in Skyrim after the Civil War for either side. Mostly a few Jarls, maybe some dialogue here or there, but nothing major. I have no issue not getting involved because of these reasons. Why bother with the lore stuff when the in-game choices mean little for the overall canon anyways?

 

[DrunkenMage]

This is it? Really? Thought you would have some lore-evidence on why I should try to do something,

Exactly what I thought when reading your post. Except instead of lore-evidence, (since you don't know any) I was expecting some RP/Opinion crap on why you shouldn't be doing something.

You are correct, the player not doing anything doesn't affect the game. Helgen, dragons, all the quests and what not.

Why bother with the lore stuff when the in-game choices mean little for the overall canon anyways?

Why bother playing the game at all? After all, nothing happens if you don't put it in the disc tray. Why bother posting about it, why bother doing anything? Many people who post in this thread. Don't think on the lines of "Well if I don't do anything, nothing happens, so it doesn't matter."

They put themselves into the game. Why bother with the lore stuff, because people, well people with brains. Like to make a choice based on knowledge, look before jumping so to speak.

I'm once again curious as to why you're back in this thread, what is your angle this time? "Don't do anything, because if you don't. Things don't change!"

Perhaps people should follow your example, start up Skyrim, and create their brand new Jeremius character. Soon as you created your character, bam exit game. That way, nothing happens! How exciting, the heavy RP'ers and those who like creating new builds will love this. Cause after all that is "RP'ing properly, truly RP'ing" as you corrected the other person in this thread. Telling him, he wasn't doing it right. But it is all good, I've explained it for everyone, now everyone can truly RP.

 

[Jeremius]

Perhaps people should follow your example, start up Skyrim, and create their brand new Jeremius character. Soon as you created your character, bam exit game. That way, nothing happens! How exciting, the heavy RP'ers and those who like creating new builds will love this. Cause after all that is "RP'ing properly, truly RP'ing" as you corrected the other person in this thread. Telling him, he wasn't doing it right. But it is all good, I've explained it for everyone, now everyone can truly RP.

You're joking right? I play games like Skyrim and Fallout in character, so what my character knows, is important to learn. If they do not know it, it means nothing. IF I play a hunter or an assassin, I am that kind of character. IF I play an imperial loyalist and Anti-Authority mongrel, they will side with one or the other. That is a true RP, playing in-character and having that character's mindset as your own.

 

[DrunkenMage]

You're joking right? I play games like Skyrim and Fallout in character, so what my character knows, is important to learn. If they do not know it, it means nothing. IF I play a hunter or an assassin, I am that kind of character. IF I play an imperial loyalist and Anti-Authority mongrel, they will side with one or the other. That is a true RP, playing in-character and having that character's mindset as your own.

Yet you have at times called lore meaningless. You switch between several things, ranging from RP, opinion and game mechanics.

Being in character, being a citizen in Tamriel. You're using lore, using knowledge, using everything presented to you to be a character in that mindset.

So unless your character is blind, deaf and dumb. You can find out majority of lore in-game.

What exactly are you pitching in this thread now? Because I rarely find anything you post useful. People in threads like these, like discussing the lore on each side. Making arguments and counter arguments for whatever side they have chosen to defend.

I've played both sides of the Civil War, and I post in here about the Empire. Everyone has a character on either side, everyone knows about RP. It isn't a new concept and suddenly unheard of until you opened our eyes. So I'm wondering, what are you going on about this time?

Explaining RP to people? Game mechanics? Telling people there are things called opinions, like we were blind to it until you came?

To cut to the chase. What is your point, your reason of being here?