Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Dagmar]

You have gone so far off our original argument Im not even going to respond to most of your stuff.

Everything I've posted has been in direct response to what you've posted. If the conversation has deviated from the original argument (which it hasn't) you need only look in a mirror to see whose responsible for that.

You repeatedly fail to see the parallels between our universe and tamreil.

There's no failure on my part. Any alleged parallels you've pointed out that I may have addressed are simply inaccurate or irrelevant.

 

[azali100]

The contract was put out by Amaund Motierre. A member of the Elder Council and an "old and powerful" Breton family in Cyrodill. While it has not been established whether or not they are related, there is a Francois Motierre involved in Oblivion's DB quest line.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

For the love of Talos. First off, the Imperials are not Thalmor puppets! They just have to do some things they don't like until they're actually strong enough to fight the elves. Second, that speech Ulfric made? Much as I hate to use this analogy, Hitler had some really pretty speeches too. For all Ulfric says he hates fighting, he's more than willing to start a war. Third, saying wars are always fought over religion is just a justification. No life>ideas. Fourth, Even as the Dunmer are now in Winterhold, there's no reason to legally segregate them. Fifth, Free-Winter said he was trying to find a safe way to integrate the Argonians into the city. Do you see Ulfric giving a plops about that? And finally, if anyone believes the Stormcloacks, or even all of Skyrim, could beat the Dominion alone, you probably think they have an embassy there because the Dominion and Cyrodiil are best friends. I dare you to say any of this is wrong.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

well it all depends on the way you play, if you like destroying villages stormcloaks is the one for you! but if you like resolving things peacfully join the empire, i havent joined any yet but i have character at my friends house who joined the stormcloaks, i have to say there campaign is REALLY fun! my friend joined the empire, well its fun but i like doing the destructive things! but if you join the stormcloaks you burn down some of whiterun, solitude and almost every main capital!

How was this rated off topic? It answered the question!

 

[PrisonerLizzie]

For the love of Talos. First off, the Imperials are not Thalmor puppets! They just have to do some things they don't like until they're actually strong enough to fight the elves. Second, that speech Ulfric made? Much as I hate to use this analogy, Hitler had some really pretty speeches too. For all Ulfric says he hates fighting, he's more than willing to start a war. Third, saying wars are always fought over religion is just a justification. No life>ideas. Fourth, Even as the Dunmer are now in Winterhold, there's no reason to legally segregate them. Fifth, Free-Winter said he was trying to find a safe way to integrate the Argonians into the city. Do you see Ulfric giving a pl*** about that? And finally, if anyone believes the Stormcloacks, or even all of Skyrim, could beat the Dominion alone, you probably think they have an embassy there because the Dominion and Cyrodiil are best friends. I dare you to say any of this is wrong.

Hitler did have pretty speechs....he also had peace treaties he abused to gain power over other governments, squads of small specialized troops that went out and arrested people that were of a faith he didn't approve of, interrogation chambers that were absolutely inhumane....now who does that sound like in Skyrim.....OH WAIT...THE THALMOR! But lets not fight against them!


And Again I hear no cry of racism for the Khajiit that the Empire isn't allowing in Impieral cities not even to rent a room? What of that FullMetal?

 

[azali100]

Hitler did have pretty speechs....he also had peace treaties he abused to gain power over other governments, squads of small specialized troops that went out and arrested people that were of a faith he didn't approve of, interrogation chambers that were absolutely inhumane....now who does that sound like in Skyrim.....OH WAIT...THE THALMOR! But lets not fight against them!


And Again I hear no cry of racism for the Khajiit that the Empire isn't allowing in Impieral cities not even to rent a room? What of that FullMetal?

*cough* godwins law *cough*

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Hitler did have pretty speechs....he also had peace treaties he abused to gain power over other governments, squads of small specialized troops that went out and arrested people that were of a faith he didn't approve of, interrogation chambers that were absolutely inhumane....now who does that sound like in Skyrim.....OH WAIT...THE THALMOR! But lets not fight against them!


And Again I hear no cry of racism for the Khajiit that the Empire isn't allowing in Impieral cities not even to rent a room? What of that FullMetal?

Then please remember that Cyrodiil faced the worst Oblivion had to offer. If they give into this kind of deal, it'd be foolish to assume it's out of weakness. Instead of thinking of the Thalmor as a pack of three or four high elves with elven gear, think of them as a major global power capable of crushing nations through force or intelligence. They went through Valenwood, they conned Elswyer. The fact is the battle of Red Ring and the WGC was the first thing resembling a victory against them. And if Cyrodiil didn't stop the fighting there, the Nords would've likely been next.

 

[Docta Corvina]

The Imperials are just as racist as the Stormcloaks don't kid yourself. Even in Imperial held cities Khajiit are not even allowed to enter the city and rent a room at an inn for a night much less buy a house. Anywhere in Skyrim. Under ANY Jarl. If thats not racism then what is?

The Thalmor are the puppet masters of the Empire and seek out to destroy the Nords and their culture. They kidnap, torture and murder on whims. No trials no one to keep them in check. The only person that can stop them is Ulfric. He may not be a perfect solution but he may be the best solution Skyrim has.

As far as segregating a population to minimize a potential threat during times of war, while it is not a socially acceptable solution it is not unheard of and is actually well documented as being used even by the United States. War is war, it may not be a pleasant thought but when you don't know who your friends are you have to treat everyone like an enemy.

Skyrim’s Jarls govern in a largely independent capacity. The common thread is sworn fealty to the High King and the Empire by extension. Thus the policies of each Hold may vary – which is clear no less in Windhelm’s segregationist mandate. The hyperbolic notion of the Empire's boot on the necks of the Jarls and the province at large is not exactly accurate. And to say that “Imperials are just as racist” makes me wonder how many people who think that have played Oblivion. Obviously that game is set 200 years prior, but we are given no indication that the Empire currently enthusiastically favors or encourages racially mandated segregation. The attitudes toward the Khajiit is a situation that indeed appears prevalent across Skyrim. It reminds me of the attitude toward gypsies amid the Medieval time period, and even in some European countries in modern times. I don't especially like the exclusion of the Khajiit, but that does not cancel out the fact that Windhelm's the city with the most strident racial policies. Government-mandated segregation of Dunmer is not a Skyrim-wide occurrence.

Secondly, this continuous fiction that the Empire is enamored with the Thalmor is twisted and bizarre to me. No Imperial NPC that I have ever run across has any love for the Dominion/Thalmor. In fact, they're apt to muse about the Thalmor's demise and lament the current fighting in Skyrim because it frustrates (at best) that cause.

That said, I would like to know why anyone thinks Ulfric and his faction are the only things that can defeat the Thalmor, all by themselves. For everyone who mocks a "weak" Empire, what makes anyone think that Ulfric's forces can charge to the Summerset Isles and take on the Dominion? The best hope for a final defeat of the AD is a front composed of considerably more than just roughly half of Skyrim. We've got to remember that not all Nords are supportive and willing to die for Ulfric. If Stormcloak supporters realize this and imagine perhaps future reconciliation and joining of forces, that is precisely what the Empire represents at its most basic level. With the final defeat of the Dominion comes the strong possibility of the overturning of the treaty's terms - which would obviously include the restoration of open Talos worship. Let's not forget that Talos was worshiped in Cyrodiil as well. The Nords don't have a monopoly on him in regards to reverence for him as a deity, and there are many who would be very eager to undo the terms outlined in the treaty.

Finally, the policy with the Dunmer was not instituted in the time of the current war. It has in fact been in place for many years, according to NPC testimony. It predates Ulfric's reign as Jarl. And it is certainly not doing anyone in Windhelm any favors and instead of encouraging solidarity and goodwill that might even perhaps translate into active aid for the Stormcloaks, the more insular Nords as well as the local government are content to preserve the status quo. And all that does is nurture tension and resentment.

Nevermind the fact the Dunmer aren't being isolated because of their lack of Stormcloak support either - if that were the case, there are Nords, like a certain Brunwulf Free-Winter, who would theoretically have earned themselves the same treatment. Not to mention, for every time a racist Nord argues about hard work and earning respect through it, I have to laugh bitterly since such hard work has not done the Argonians any favors in Windhelm. They're relegated to the docks, even though they work day in and day out unloading the ships, something that the Nords involved admittedly don't care to do themselves. So much for hard work garnering respect, eh?

 

[Dagmar]

...Dunmer are refugees and poor. They are not entirely citizens of Windhelm...

Dunmer's are citizens of Skyrim. They've been living there for almost 2 centuries and they pay taxes just like any other citizen of Windhelm (implied by Viola Giordano if you give her the ring in the quest That Was Always There as she says that Ulfric should increase the taxes on Revyn Sadri as punishment for buying her stolen ring.)

...also they are pretty poor...

No they aren't. Like other races, some of them are poor and some of them are not. Belyn Hlaalu owns a farm and can afford to employee a Nord farm hand. His house has a Thieves Guild "loot" shadowmark on it indicating prosperity. A house, by the way, which is still in the Gray Quarter because, not withstanding said prosperity, he's not allowed to live anywhere else in Windhelm because he's a Dunmer. Revyn Sadri isn't poor and neither is the Atheron family but all of them are only allowed residence in the Gray Quarter.

Keep in mind that the Orcs are extremely wary of outsiders so whos to blame the Windhelm nords for not wanting to let the Dunmer sleep on their couches.

The Orcs of Skyrim live in strongholds not villages or cities. Comparing them being wary of encroaching strangers into their fortified home to the attitude of Ulfric and some (not all) Nords in Windhelm towards their fellow Dunmer residents is a flawed analogy.

..Also keep in mind that they can leave if they want....

You make it sound like that is an easy option not fraught with serious consequences and burdens of its own. Moving in Skyrim isn't even remotely like moving in our world. It's been pointed out several times in this thread so much so that I can simply cut and past my response from page 121 in this thread:

...Picking up everything you have and relocating is exponentially more difficult to do in Tamriel than it is in your world. Let me put it this way. Would you relocate to another part of the world without a job or a place to stay or any knowledge of what the living conditions or the employment situation is there? Would you do it after having lived in a place for over 20 years of your life forging deep and meaningful professional and personal relationships where you are now? Would you do it if it meant leaving family behind? Would you do it if you were told you could never use a phone, cellphone, the internet or even the postal system to ever communicate with anyone you know including your family, and all those people you had formed personal and professional relationships over decades? Would you do it if you had to travel hundreds of miles on foot with the risk of being robbed of everything you have or killed along the way? These are things that have to be considered if you are just going to up and leave Windhelm for parts unknown in Tamriel....

I agree that their living conditions aren't extremely oppressive but neither are they on par with what every non-Dunmer citizen is entitled to in Windhelm and the fact that it's not extremely oppressive simply underscores why moving is not a viable solution as it simply trades one set of problems for another potentially worse set of problems. None of that really justifies the segregation of their residences.

...they can't afford better...

Already refuted above

..... and i don't beleive that a single on of those elves got the houses for the price a nord would have had to pay.

There is nothing in the game to support your belief. It's simply pure speculation on your part borne of transparent bias.

.....if one of them fairly produced the income to buy a house outside the grey quarter ulfric would be more than happy to abolish the law...

No he wouldn't, and he hasn't. As I pointed out above there are already prosperous Dunmer in Windhelm and Aval Atheron makes it clear he's not allowed to live anywhere other than the Gray Quarter.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

The fact that every argument supporting the segregation boils down to 'it's not bad enough for me to care' is insanity. It's probably one of the easiest problems of the 4th era to fix. Why not?

 

[JoeReese]

Fortunately for all of us, it remains a game, a tool of recreation in which non-player characters feel neither pain nor oppression. They act and react only as they are programmed, for our collective entertainment. I think I will log on and violate some of their rights now.

 

[PrisonerLizzie]

The fact that every argument supporting the segregation boils down to 'it's not bad enough for me to care' is insanity. It's probably one of the easiest problems of the 4th era to fix. Why not?

Why do you care about the dunmer and not the Khajiit?

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Why do you care about the dunmer and not the Khajiit?

I do care. Bit the Khajiit are a small group of traders who have to make camp anyway. Plus, a lot of the concerns about them turn out to be true, if you follow the right quest line. I just figured the Dunmer are a good step in the right direction.

 

[PrisonerLizzie]

I do care. Bit the Khajiit are a small group of traders who have to make camp anyway. Plus, a lot of the concerns about them turn out to be true, if you follow the right quest line. I just figured the Dunmer are a good step in the right direction.

So you're saying "it's just not bad enough for you to care?"

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

So you're saying "it's just not bad enough for you to care?"

I'm saying working on a nationwide policy can come after the Dunmer in one city get their rights.

 

[JoeReese]

 

[PrisonerLizzie]

I'm saying working on a nationwide policy can come after the Dunmer in one city get their rights.

because a nationwide policy is too small?

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

because a nationwide policy is too small?

It's too big. Way too big. Plus, if a single city is a lost cause, you know changing Skyrim isn't gonna happen.

 

[Crooksin]

I didn't say that the Stormcloaks were in the good, I just said the Imperials weren't as pure as the driven snow as someone would have us believe. Not all of us only look at the bad deeds of one side and ignore the bad deeds of the other. We weigh them against the good and see who is truely the lesser of two evils. Black and white are only crayons not sides of life.

So you're saying "it's just not bad enough for you to care?"

No one is arguing for oppressing the Khajit and I definitely haven't seen anyone here say "the Imperials are as pure as the driven snow". Refer to your first post; We are weighing the pros and the cons of each faction to see which one is better for Skyrim in the end. I'm not debating that the Empire are perfect, only that the Empire are better than the Stormcloaks.

With that said, both factions seem to encourage or at least allow exiling the Khajit. So in terms of this debate, that's a stalemate. Neither faction is better than the other in this regard, and while we can take this into account it can't be used to argue for either side since both are guilty of it and neither one can gain ground.

However, one thing that the Stormcloaks do that the Empire does not, is only allow Nords in their ranks (excluding Dragonborn for plot progression reasons) and segregate the Dumner for whatever reason. (Ulfric is leader of the Stormcloaks as well as the Jarl so anything that happens in Windhelm, the Stormcloaks can be accountable for it as well.) THAT is something the Empire has over the Stormcloaks.

Obviously you're a Stormcloak sympathizer and you can argue all day that the Empire exiles Khajits, but so do the Stormcloaks so I really don't understand why you would even bring that up in an attempt to make the Empire look bad. Exiling the Khajit's is more of a Skyrim problem as a whole, a problem involving every citizen, not just these particular factions.

 

[PrisonerLizzie]

I do care. Bit the Khajiit are a small group of traders who have to make camp anyway. Plus, a lot of the concerns about them turn out to be true, if you follow the right quest line. I just figured the Dunmer are a good step in the right direction.

It's too big. Way too big. Plus, if a single city is a lost cause, you know changing Skyrim isn't gonna happen.

I see what you typed, but you're first response seems to be your most honest feelings and the rest reads like spinning tires. You don't see the Khajiit in the cities only a passing few on the roads. So for all your high and mighty talk about equality for the Dunmer you only care about the ones that are underfoot. Not really for everyone just those that are convenient. Its not too big, just too much work