Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

Oh Dags, your presence just makes one thing come to mind. _

 

[Raijin]

So you think the Empire should of just banned Talos, given up southern hammerfell, disbanded their Intelligence agents, paid the Aldmeri Dominion a crap load of money without even a fight? There would of been Civil war everywhere, not just thirty years later in Skyrim, but every single province. There wouldn't be an Empire if they agreed to those terms, so do not call him a stubborn Emperor for rejecting terms on the mere threat of war. If that is your argument against the Empire? That they fought back instead of surrendering without a fight, it is a weak stance. The treaty saved thousands of lives, not just those in Cyrodiil, what of the Legionnaires from High Rock? Or the Legionnaires from Skyrim? Do those Nords mean nothing to Skyrim? To their families? It didn't save Skyrim you say? Where would Skyrim be if Cyrodiil was destroyed because they continued the war and lost every soldier attacking the Dominion in southern Hammerfell, invading Valenwood and Elsweyr. What would Skyrim do to defend themselves if all the soldiers are gone and the only protection is a small Militia Ulfric is leading to attack Forsworn controlled Markarth. Ulfric's forces in full strength three decades later can't even afford a war with the Empire, how would they manage against thousands of Dominion soldiers marching unopposed because there is no more Legions to stop them, because forming a peace treaty would be weakness, much better to have thousands die so a small few old Nords can thump their chests and say what a brave defeat it was?

"On the 30th of Frostfall, 4E 171, the Aldmeri Dominion sent an ambassador to the Imperial City with a gift in a covered cart and an ultimatum for the new Emperor. The long list of demands included staggering tributes, disbandment of the Blades, outlawing the worship of Talos, and ceding large sections of Hammerfell to the Dominion. Despite the warnings of his generals of the Empire's military weakness, Emperor Titus Mede II rejected the ultimatum. The Thalmor ambassador upended the cart, spilling over a hundred heads on the floor: every Blades agent in Summerset and Valenwood. And so began the Great War which would consume the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion for the next five years." http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Great_War_(book)

Titus Mede II was warned by his Generals that starting a war with the Aldmeri Dominion was a very bad Idea, considering the fact that their military forces were weak to the begin with, and Titus Mede II ignored the warnings from his Generals, and rejected the ultimatum anyways...which then started the Great war costing many their lives. At the end Titus Mede II finally realize what his Generals warned him about prior to the war, and surrendered to the Aldmeri Dominion despite of them retaking back the Imperial city, and the capture of Lord Naarifin. The White-Gold Concordat was signed. The Empire Gave the Thalmor the official OK to hunt down and kill the remaining members of the Blades, Hunt down Talos worshipers, and delivered a large portion of southern Hammerfell into the control of the Aldmeri Dominion.

I take that back... Mede II wasn't stubborn... just exhibited very poor judgement to which then turned into negligence that cost the lives of his people.

The White-Gold Concordat was hard on everyone, yet it had to be done to regain strength and fight another day, they did step back to regain strength what do you think they've been doing for nearly three decades? Sitting around doing nothing? They've been busy rebuilding and keeping the Imperial army tied down on the Aldmeri Dominion border. Talos worship was wide in Cyrodiil and Skyrim, but the ban was never enforced, people worshiped in secret and didn't pay much attention, the Thalmor would of pressured the Empire into enforcing the treaty. "We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down" - Alvor

Why didn't your Emperor signed the treaty when it was first offer to him? Prevention is the key
Had he signed the first round the war wouldn't had started. Instead of recovery the Empire could use that time to build up their military strength.

You have no idea how Torygg was as a High King, it is suggested he greatly respected Ulfric and wanted to hear more of it, I'm sure he may of agreed if Ulfric could come up with a bloody plan on what to do afterwards since they still depended on Imperial coin, all of the Jarls did, the people depended on the food and supplies through trade and commerce, the miners depended on the work that was brought through the East Empire Company, shipping ore and ingots. You can't feed your people on notions of greatness, you can't pay your guards and workers on the promises of independence. I don't understand why you dislike the High King because he loved his wife? That he wanted to treat her like someone he loved?

Torygg showed interests in Skyrims independence, but I cannot see him actually doing it. If he was truly serious about wanting Skyrim to be independent from the Empire he would've summon Jarl Ulfric to solitude to discuss the course of action to take. Instead he fiddled with his thumbs waiting for Ulfric to come to him with a "bloody plan". To me that's not king like material. I have no hatred for the man... He is simply not High King material. The Moot did Skyrim a discredit by appointing a young inexperienced person as High King.

History will repeat it's self if Toryggs woman get appointed to the throne.

 

[The Laoch]

The Legate requires no protection, she is an Imperial Legionnaire. "But they are no match for Legionnaires. You are the best and the brightest warriors in Tamriel. Professional soldiers, fearless and devastating."
!"[/I]

I think the title goes to the Aldmeri Dominion. I think they pretty much slaughtered the so called "best and brightest warriors"

I support the Talos cult in the legion, if the Empire promises to attack the Thalmor and the Dragonborn throws his/her support to the Empire I bet Skyrim would throw all it's support for the Empire.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I think the title goes to the Aldmeri Dominion. I think they pretty much slaughtered the so called "best and brightest warriors"

The entire Aldmeri Dominion army in Cyrodiil was destroyed, wiped out. Their General kept alive for thirty three days hanging from the White-Gold Tower. The Legion is still standing, so yes indeed they are the best and brightest.

 

[DrunkenMage]

 

[DrunkenMage]

"On the 30th of Frostfall, 4E 171, the Aldmeri Dominion sent an ambassador to the Imperial City with a gift in a covered cart and an ultimatum for the new Emperor. The long list of demands included staggering tributes, disbandment of the Blades, outlawing the worship of Talos, and ceding large sections of Hammerfell to the Dominion. Despite the warnings of his generals of the Empire's military weakness, Emperor Titus Mede II rejected the ultimatum. The Thalmor ambassador upended the cart, spilling over a hundred heads on the floor: every Blades agent in Summerset and Valenwood. And so began the Great War which would consume the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion for the next five years." http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Great_War_(book)

Titus Mede II was warned by his Generals that starting a war with the Aldmeri Dominion was a very bad Idea, considering the fact that their military forces were weak to the begin with, and Titus Mede II ignored the warnings from his Generals, and rejected the ultimatum anyways...which then started the Great war costing many their lives. At the end Titus Mede II finally realize what his Generals warned him about prior to the war, and surrendered to the Aldmeri Dominion despite of them retaking back the Imperial city, and the capture of Lord Naarifin. The White-Gold Concordat was signed. The Empire Gave the Thalmor the official OK to hunt down and kill the remaining members of the Blades, Hunt down Talos worshipers, and delivered a large portion of southern Hammerfell into the control of the Aldmeri Dominion.

I take that back... Mede II wasn't stubborn... just exhibited very poor judgement to which then turned into negligence that cost the lives of his people.





Why didn't your Emperor signed the treaty when it was first offer to him? Prevention is the key
Had he signed the first round the war wouldn't had started. Instead of recovery the Empire could use that time to build up their military strength.




Torygg showed interests in Skyrims independence, but I cannot see him actually doing it. If he was truly serious about wanting Skyrim to be independent from the Empire he would've summon Jarl Ulfric to solitude to discuss the course of action to take. Instead he fiddled with his thumbs waiting for Ulfric to come to him with a "bloody plan". To me that's not king like material. I have no hatred for the man... He is simply not High King material. The Moot did Skyrim a discredit by appointing a young inexperienced person as High King.

History will repeat it's self if Toryggs woman get appointed to the throne.

They didn't simply give up Hammerfell, the Dominion Army controlled Southern Hammerfell already, they occupied those lands, they were dug in and ready to fight, it took five more years of warfare with the Redguards to get them out. 'The two most controversial terms of the Concordat were the banning of the worship of Talos and the cession of a large section of southern Hammerfell (most of what was already occupied by Aldmeri forces)' - The Great War

Bad judgement? He had no choice but to fight? The fact you believe the Empire should of simply rolled over is one of the most useless arguments proposed. There wouldn't be an Empire anywhere, rebellion and Civil wars would of torn it apart. 'However, there is a great difference between agreeing to such terms under the mere threat of war, and agreeing to them at the end of a long and destructive war. No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price.' - The Great War

Titus did not surrender because he realized what his General's were talking about, that is pure speculation, a false speculation. If the Empire was going to surrender completely they would of done it when the Aldmeri Dominion offered them peace while they occupied the Imperial City. 'During the winter of 4E 174-175, the Thalmor seem to have believed that the war in Cyrodiil was all but over. They made several attempts to negotiate with Titus II. The Emperor encouraged them in their belief that he was preparing to surrender; meanwhile, he gathered his forces to retake the Imperial City.' - The Great War. The peace terms were struck because the Empire needed to rebuild it's forces, it couldn't take the fight to free Southern Hammerfell and also defend cities against brigands and creatures, take the fight to Esweyr and Valenwood. 'Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year.' - The Great War.

The Emperor didn't agree to the Treaty because I've already answered this, Dagmar has answered it many times before, so have generally nearly all Imperial supporters. 'No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war.' - The Great War

You have no idea how Torygg was as a High King, you don't know if he was a good or bad High King, he wasn't given the time needed for us to know if he was bad or good. Though we do know people in Solitude liked him, we do know upon meeting him in Sovngarde that he was a good and honorable man.

Your entire argument against the Empire is that they fought the Aldmeri Dominion? That is your big dislike for the Empire. Let's rebel against the Empire because they stood up for themselves? Because they stood against a mighty force and they made the Thalmor realize the time of man is not yet over, that together and united, Man can defeat them. The Empire, even a weakened Empire, forced the Thalmor to a stand still, the great Aldmeri Dominion in full strength could not defeat a weakened Empire. They are right when they say the peace is not between two nations of equal strength. The last Great War the Empire was on the defense, in the next Great War, they'll teach the Aldmeri Dominion what it means to attack.

 

[The Laoch]

The entire Aldmeri Dominion army in Cyrodiil was destroyed, wiped out. Their General kept alive for thirty three days hanging from the White-Gold Tower. The Legion is still standing, so yes indeed they are the best and brightest.

The legionnaires that recaptured the Imperal city were mostly Nords correct? Does that mean the Stormcloaks who have some ex-legionnaires have some of the best and brightest warriors?

Long live Ulfric! Long live the Empire! ( I support both sides)

 

[DrunkenMage]

The legionnaires that recaptured the Imperal city were mostly Nords correct? Does that mean the Stormcloaks who have some ex-legionnaires have some of the best and brightest warriors?

Long live Ulfric! Long live the Empire! ( I support both sides)

They weren't mostly Nords. They were all races, the mainly Nord Legions didn't retake the city, they formed a Shield wall to the south to cut off the Aldmeri Dominion retreat.

Though yes the Stormcloaks themselves do have many traitor Legionnaires.

'In a two-day assault, Jonna's army crossed the Niben and advanced west, attempting to link up with Decianus's legions and thus surround the Imperial City. Lord Naarifin was taken by surprise by Decianus's assault, but Jonna's troops faced bitter resistance as the Aldmeri counterattacked from Bravil and Skingrad. The heroic Nord legionnaires held firm, however, beating off the piecemeal Aldmeri attacks. By the fifth day of the battle, the Aldmeri army in the Imperial City was surrounded.'

'An attempt by the Aldmeri to break out of the city to the south was blocked by the unbreakable shieldwall of General Jonna's battered legions.'

Taken from The Great War. General Jonna commanded the mainly Nord Legions.

 

[Anouck]

Titus Mede II was warned by his Generals that starting a war with the Aldmeri Dominion was a very bad Idea, considering the fact that their military forces were weak to the begin with, and Titus Mede II ignored the warnings from his Generals, and rejected the ultimatum anyways...which then started the Great war costing many their lives. At the end Titus Mede II finally realize what his Generals warned him about prior to the war, and surrendered to the Aldmeri Dominion despite of them retaking back the Imperial city, and the capture of Lord Naarifin. The White-Gold Concordat was signed. The Empire Gave the Thalmor the official OK to hunt down and kill the remaining members of the Blades, Hunt down Talos worshipers, and delivered a large portion of southern Hammerfell into the control of the Aldmeri Dominion..

The decision he made was not only important for the future of Tamriel: it was also important for the image of the Empire. If Titus Mede II would have surrendered inmediately, without a fight or an attempt to defend the Empire, he would have sent a very wrong message to the people.

In the beginning of the WOII the Dutch fought 4 days against the German soldiers. There was no way they could win the battle but they wanted to defend their wives and children as long as they could. Eventually they did surrender but because they had no choice.

I'm not sure if I use to right words to express myself. The only thing I'm trying to say is that the Empire couldn't surrender inmediately. That way everybody would know that it doesn't take much to take over control in Tamriel.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The decision he made was not only important for the future of Tamriel: it was also important for the image of the Empire. If Titus Mede II would have surrendered inmediately, without a fight or an attempt to defend the Empire, he would have sent a very wrong message to the people.

In the beginning of the WOII the Dutch fought 4 days against the German soldiers. There was no way they could win the battle but they wanted to defend their wives and children as long as they could. Eventually they did surrender but because they had no choice.

I'm not sure if I use to right words to express myself. The only thing I'm trying to say is that the Empire couldn't surrender inmediately. That way everybody would know that it doesn't take much to take over control in Tamriel.

The terms were rejected because no part of the Empire would of accepted them, there would of been civil war. Every province would try to leave the Empire, there would be open rebellion all across the Empire. The Empire needed a kick up the butt to get them back on track, the great war showed them they have gotten relaxed and unprepared. The Empire has learned from the Great War and it won't make the same mistake twice, I think the Great War did good for the Empire, not with all the deaths but it showed them there are threats and the Legion will be called into action like it hasn't been before, they'll be taking the next war to the Thalmor.

 

[The Laoch]

Am I the only one who thinks that that the Empire may benefit if both Skyrim and High Rock both leave? It would allow the Empire to focus on their own land. They won't have to worry about foreign problems, and some provinces may want to come back if the Thalmor acted the,. Cyrodiil is huge. It probably has a big population. If they focus on building an army they may be able to rebuild their Empire after the second Great War.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Am I the only one who thinks that that the Empire may benefit if both Skyrim and High Rock both leave? It would allow the Empire to focus on their own land. They won't have to worry about foreign problems, and some provinces may want to come back if the Thalmor acted the,. Cyrodiil is huge. It probably has a big population. If they focus on building an army they may be able to rebuild their Empire after the second Great War.

Two major garrisons are located in Skyrim and High Rock, some of the best soldiers come from those places. Cyrodiil alone cannot handle the Dominion. Skyrim and High Rock are fairly safe, Cyrodiil however is connected by two Dominion controlled provinces. Without the recruitment from the other two provinces, it'll limit the flow of how many people join the Imperial Army. Many people do say "Hammerfell fought on alone" they use the Great war as a source to quote but always look over this little line. "But the Redguards should not forget the great sacrifice of Imperial blood - Breton, Nord, and Cyrodilic - at the Battle of the Red Ring that weakened the Dominion enough to allow the eventual Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180 and the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell."

Cyrodiil alone cannot win. The Thalmor started stirring up trouble in Skyrim about twenty six years after the treaty has been in effect (more or less), you have to remember you have many Nords screaming "The Empire banned Talos!" It didn't happened yesterday, the treaty with the Thalmor has been around for the last three decades. It makes you ask yourself, why now? Is the Empire preparing for war sooner than the Thalmor plans? Is that why they seek to divert their attention from Aldmeri lands. The Civil war in Skyrim has effectively turned the eyes of the Empire inwards when for the last maybe ten years they've been looking outwards towards the Aldmeri Domion after they had everything under control, Cyrodiil was badly damaged in the Great war so there would of been many years of repairing, sending soldiers home, guarding roads and towns etc from Bandits who would of taken advantage of the lack of law enforcement. The Imperial army is already tied down on the Aldmeri Dominion border, so the Empire is preparing, how far off they are from the next Great war is anyone's guess, the Stormcloak rebellion simply delays that. There have been Stormcloak supporters saying "How long does it take, they're taking too long" There was so much damage and loss of life within Cyrodiil and on the Imperial navy and army. It takes time to rebuild. The rebellion is not helping, it's simply wasting resources and good soldiers, on both sides.

 

[Lifts-Her-Tail]

I think the war is just stupid. Both sides had their wrong doings and if they settled it to start with no one of this would happen. Lets say Ulfric stopped being a racist jerk and just stopped then he wouldn't have people conspiricising against him. If Tullius just stopped being so power greedy then maybe Ulfric wouldn't be so p***ed off with him. All I'm sayin is that both are in the wrong and both of them have done things wrong.

 

[Raijin]

Bad judgement? He had no choice but to fight? The fact you believe the Empire should of simply rolled over is one of the most useless arguments proposed. There wouldn't be an Empire anywhere, rebellion and Civil wars would of torn it apart. 'However, there is a great difference between agreeing to such terms under the mere threat of war, and agreeing to them at the end of a long and destructive war. No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price.' - The Great War

It's still bad judgment no matter what you think of it. I do not blame Mede II for inheriting a weak Empire when he became Emperor. I blame him for stirring up the hornets nest. At the time the Empire was in no position to be getting involved in a war, especially a Great war that is. Mede course of action cost the lives of over 100 blade agents that was station in Summerset and Valenwood. The results were even more devastating when the Great war begin soon after. The Empire did get back the Imperial city from the Thalmor, but at a great cost. Mede II bit of way more than he bargain for. Mede wanted to have his cake and eat it too.

Titus did not surrender because he realized what his General's were talking about, that is pure speculation, a false speculation. If the Empire was going to surrender completely they would of done it when the Aldmeri Dominion offered them peace while they occupied the Imperial City. 'During the winter of 4E 174-175, the Thalmor seem to have believed that the war in Cyrodiil was all but over. They made several attempts to negotiate with Titus II. The Emperor encouraged them in their belief that he was preparing to surrender; meanwhile, he gathered his forces to retake the Imperial City.' - The Great War. The peace terms were struck because the Empire needed to rebuild it's forces, it couldn't take the fight to free Southern Hammerfell and also defend cities against brigands and creatures, take the fight to Esweyr and Valenwood. 'Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year.' - The Great War.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The Aldmeri Dominion was trying to reason with the Emperor by making several attempts to negotiate with him, and it fell on deaf ears. This clearly indicates that the Thalmor was trying to offer peace, but Titus wouldn't let it happen. Titus was still under the illusion that he could still win the Great war with his weaken military. On the positivist side he did regain back control of the Imperial city, but at what cost? What was Titus Mede II trying prove to himself when he rejected the treaty thus causing the Great war to start up? Did it make him a better man? That his penis grew a few inches? No he wand up signing the same damn treaty that the Thalmor was trying to offer before the Great war.

You have no idea how Torygg was as a High King, you don't know if he was a good or bad High King, he wasn't given the time needed for us to know if he was bad or good. Though we do know people in Solitude liked him, we do know upon meeting him in Sovngarde that he was a good and honorable man.

You're right I don't know personally know how Torygg was as a High King because theirs no character development to be provided, however base on what I've gathered up from playing Skyrim... when NPC's starts referencing him as a “Boy” (The steward from Dragonreach for an example), and not as a man, this does not give me positive notes regarding to Torygg and his leadership.

Your entire argument against the Empire is that they fought the Aldmeri Dominion? That is your big dislike for the Empire. Let's rebel against the Empire because they stood up for themselves? Because they stood against a mighty force and they made the Thalmor realize the time of man is not yet over, that together and united, Man can defeat them. The Empire, even a weakened Empire, forced the Thalmor to a stand still, the great Aldmeri Dominion in full strength could not defeat a weakened Empire. They are right when they say the peace is not between two nations of equal strength. The last Great War the Empire was on the defense, in the next Great War, they'll teach the Aldmeri Dominion what it means to attack.

That is not my biggest argument for disliking the Empire, and you know it too. The Empire (The Imperial Legion of Skyrim) did not imprint me a positive feeling for them when I first started playing the game; when I had no bias opinion of either team. They wanted to execute me for no apparent reason. Sure you're probably going to use the “Oh it was the Captains fault, not the Empire” excuse. Well ya know what? The captain is part of the Empire. Shes an Imperial officer. If Tullius was that negligence for allowing this psychopath to keep her rank... or better yet let her still be in the legion without any remorse for human life then he is also at fault for innocence of life that she has taken so far. Either way Tullius is a scumbag just like the Captain. Both prone to violence. I'm sure your Mistress Dagmar can explain to you that stealing a horse does warrant a death penalty... you pay a fine and/or go to jail according to Imperial law.

When I bump into NPCs like Angi she gives me such horror stories about how the Imperial legion soldiers came and slaughtered her entire family thus causing her to run from her home to escape from the clutches of the Imperial legion, fearing of retaliation, after she killed those who killed her family.... it also tells me that Tullius does not have complete control over his soldiers. It tells me that perhaps the legion is not Skyrim's best interests, and that it should be the Nords that should be in charge, not the Empire.

Say all you want about Ulfric Stormcloak being a racist, Power hungry wormonger... but at least he showed some respect for Tullius/Rikke by letting them have a proper burial in the catacombs of Solitude... Tullius wanted to decapitate the recently decease body of Ulfric Stormcloak so that the Empire can have their little taboo festival by having Ulfrics head on stake.

Tullius: "Enough! You are traitors and will die traitors' deaths. Stand down and face public execution, or advance and face summary execution by my hands. It matters little to me. Either way I'll be sending your heads back to Cyrodiil."

Tullius: "The rebellion is over. Ulfric Stormcloak is dead. His head will be sent to Cyrodiil where it will adorn a spike on the walls of the Imperial City. Let this day be a final warning to all who would still call themselves Stormcloaks. We are turning the city over to Brunwulf Free-Winter, an honorable and faithful man. Many of you will be staying in Windhelm to aid the Jarl in restoring order and stamping out any embers of rebellion that may still smolder here. In appreciation for your exemplary service, I am doubling your pay and compensation to the widows of your fallen comrades. I am proud of all of you. All hail the Emperor. All hail his Legionnaires! I hate giving speeches."

Tullius reminds me a lot like Osama bin laden and the Taliban/Al qaeda organization. Obsessed with the decapitation of heads.

 

[DrunkenMage]

It's still bad judgment no matter what you think of it. I do not blame Mede II for inheriting a weak Empire when he became Emperor. I blame him for stirring up the hornets nest. At the time the Empire was in no position to be getting involved in a war, especially a Great war that is. Mede course of action cost the lives of over 100 blade agents that was station in Summerset and Valenwood. The results were even more devastating when the Great war begin soon after. The Empire did get back the Imperial city from the Thalmor, but at a great cost. Mede II bit of way more than he bargain for. Mede wanted to have his cake and eat it too.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. The Aldmeri Dominion was trying to reason with the Emperor by making several attempts to negotiate with him, and it fell on deaf ears. This clearly indicates that the Thalmor was trying to offer peace, but Titus wouldn't let it happen. Titus was still under the illusion that he could still win the Great war with his weaken military. On the positivist side he did regain back control of the Imperial city, but at what cost? What was Titus Mede II trying prove to himself when he rejected the treaty thus causing the Great war to start up? Did it make him a better man? That his penis grew a few inches? No he wand up signing the same damn treaty that the Thalmor was trying to offer before the Great war.

That is not my biggest argument for disliking the Empire, and you know it too. The Empire (The Imperial Legion of Skyrim) did not imprint me a positive feeling for them when I first started playing the game; when I had no bias opinion of either team. They wanted to execute me for no apparent reason. Sure you're probably going to use the “Oh it was the Captains fault, not the Empire” excuse. Well ya know what? The captain is part of the Empire. Shes an Imperial officer. If Tullius was that negligence for allowing this psychopath to keep her rank... or better yet let her still be in the legion without any remorse for human life then he is also at fault for innocence of life that she has taken so far. Either way Tullius is a scumbag just like the Captain. Both prone to violence. I'm sure your Mistress Dagmar can explain to you that stealing a horse does warrant a death penalty... you pay a fine and/or go to jail according to Imperial law.

When I bump into NPCs like Angi she gives me such horror stories about how the Imperial legion soldiers came and slaughtered her entire family thus causing her to run from her home to escape from the clutches of the Imperial legion, fearing of retaliation, after she killed those who killed her family.... it also tells me that Tullius does not have complete control over his soldiers. It tells me that perhaps the legion is not Skyrim's best interests, and that it should be the Nords that should be in charge, not the Empire.

Say all you want about Ulfric Stormcloak being a racist, Power hungry wormonger... but at least he showed some respect for Tullius/Rikke by letting them have a proper burial in the catacombs of Solitude... Tullius wanted to decapitate the recently decease body of Ulfric Stormcloak so that the Empire can have their little taboo festival by having Ulfrics head on stake.

Tullius: "Enough! You are traitors and will die traitors' deaths. Stand down and face public execution, or advance and face summary execution by my hands. It matters little to me. Either way I'll be sending your heads back to Cyrodiil."

Tullius: "The rebellion is over. Ulfric Stormcloak is dead. His head will be sent to Cyrodiil where it will adorn a spike on the walls of the Imperial City. Let this day be a final warning to all who would still call themselves Stormcloaks. We are turning the city over to Brunwulf Free-Winter, an honorable and faithful man. Many of you will be staying in Windhelm to aid the Jarl in restoring order and stamping out any embers of rebellion that may still smolder here. In appreciation for your exemplary service, I am doubling your pay and compensation to the widows of your fallen comrades. I am proud of all of you. All hail the Emperor. All hail his Legionnaires! I hate giving speeches."

Tullius reminds me a lot like Osama bin laden and the Taliban/Al qaeda organization. Obsessed with the decapitation of heads.

So it is Mede's fault for the death of blades agents before the Thalmor Ambassador even arrived with the terms? He arrived with their heads, they were killed before Mede was presented any terms. What is next? Mede's to blame for a man dying of old age? Is he to blame when a bandit kills someone? Shall we blame him because the sun goes down each day? We have answered this so many times Raijin, why the terms were rejected, from the book you love to quote so much about the Great war. No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price.


Your argument is the Imperial Legion is prone to violence? I didn't realize the Stormcloaks had no blood on their hands, that they didn't attack a neutral city, that the original stormcloaks didn't take part in crimes known as the Markarth Incident, considering this war started when Ulfric murdered the High King of Skyrim just shows who is prone to violence. I'm sure the 'Mistress Dagmar' can also explain that you were mistaken for rebels, Lokir was asking the Stormcloaks to tell them we're not rebels, that we're not with them and treason my dear friend is punishable by death.

Both sides have their little stories, but you refuse to accept them, like most in game facts and replace them with pure speculation.

Well you know I can say in game, Ulfric's head never leaves Skyrim, just because he said it doesn't make it so, you have done arguments like this before where you can't find lots of physical proof of something only written accounts, there for it is biased and false is your general stance. So Ulfric's head isn't going to Cyrodiil it seems.

 

[Raijin]

Your argument is the Imperial Legion is prone to violence? I didn't realize the Stormcloaks had no blood on their hands, that they didn't attack a neutral city, that the original stormcloaks didn't take part in crimes known as the Markarth Incident, considering this war started when Ulfric murdered the High King of Skyrim just shows who is prone to violence. I'm sure the 'Mistress Dagmar' can also explain that you were mistaken for rebels, Lokir was asking the Stormcloaks to tell them we're not rebels, that we're not with them and treason my dear friend is punishable by death.

What neutral city are you talking about? I assume Whiterun? Ulfric gave Balgruuf an ultimatum to choose which side hes on by sending the Dragonborn to Whiterun to give him his axe. If he keeps the axe then Ulfric would know that he is on his side... if he returns the axe... it's evidently clear by Nordic traditions that Balgruuf took the side of the Imperials. When you return to Windhelm with the axe Ulfric became rather moody, and highly disappointed in Balgruuf and his decisions to support the Empire.

Ulfric: "You were right Galmar."
Galmar: "Again?"
Ulfric: "I'm in no mood to joke."
Galmar: "Give the word, my lord, and Whiterun is yours."
Ulfric: "Whiterun is only a means to an end."
Galmar: "I've toured our camps. We're ready, Ulfric... Whenever you are."
Ulfric: "Is any man ever ready to give the order that will mean the deaths of many."
Galmar: "No. But neither is every man able to give that order when he must. But you are that man, Ulfric. You've been that man before, and you'll be him again. And these men and women - they call themselves Stormcloaks because they believe in you... They're the meanest, toughest sons of bitches Skyrim has to offer. And they want this. They want this as much as you do. Perhaps they want it more."
Ulfric: "You're certain we're ready? Whiterun's army will no doubt be bolstered with Legionnares. And those walls around Whiterun are old, but they still stand."
Galmar: "We're ready. And I might be old myself, but I'll kick those damn walls down with my bare feet! - if you would only ask me to do it!"
Ulfric: "And I'm sure you could do it, too. Alright. This is it."
Galmar: "Yes!"
Ulfric: "Send the word. "A new day is dawning and the sun rises over Whiterun.""
Galmar: "Aye, and the sons of Skyrim will greet that dawn teeth and swords flashing."
Ulfric: "So it begins."

As for the Markarth incident... are we going to discuss this one again? Ulfric did not just wake up one morning and suggested to Galmar that he wanted to invade Markarth.. He was HIRED by Igmund, an Imperial supporting Jarl, to retake back the reach. If you want someone to blame for the Markarth Incident then your finger should be pointing at Igmund, not Ulfric. Ulfric didn't demand money up front for the job... he wanted free worship of Talos as payment.

Both sides have their little stories, but you refuse to accept them, like most in game facts and replace them with pure speculation.

No my friend That's where you're wrong. I know theirs some little stories of Ulfric that I do not like... for an example I want to know why theirs segregation policy in Windhelm. Unfortunately I do not have the ability to ask Ulfric as he wasn't programmed by Bethesda to give you an explanation.

Well you know I can say in game, Ulfric's head never leaves Skyrim, just because he said it doesn't make it so, you have done arguments like this before where you can't find lots of physical proof of something only written accounts, there for it is biased and false is your general stance. So Ulfric's head isn't going to Cyrodiil it seems.

I believe what you're seeing, well everyone who finishes the civil war story under the imperials, is an extreme common glitch that Bethesda hasn't fixed yet. We all know how lazy Bethesda is when it comes to fixing glitches and bugs. They always seems to fix those "rare" glitches that we don't see or talk about.

So while Ulfrics head hasn't been physically removed, and sent back to Cyrodiil like what Tullius said in his speech... in the story wise it has.

 

[DrunkenMage]

What neutral city are you talking about? I assume Whiterun? Ulfric gave Balgruuf an ultimatum to choose which side hes on by sending the Dragonborn to Whiterun to give him his axe. If he keeps the axe then Ulfric would know that he is on his side... if he returns the axe... it's evidently clear by Nordic traditions that Balgruuf took the side of the Imperials. When you return to Windhelm with the axe Ulfric became rather moody, and highly disappointed in Balgruuf and his decisions to support the Empire.

Ulfric: "You were right Galmar."
Galmar: "Again?"
Ulfric: "I'm in no mood to joke."
Galmar: "Give the word, my lord, and Whiterun is yours."
Ulfric: "Whiterun is only a means to an end."
Galmar: "I've toured our camps. We're ready, Ulfric... Whenever you are."
Ulfric: "Is any man ever ready to give the order that will mean the deaths of many."
Galmar: "No. But neither is every man able to give that order when he must. But you are that man, Ulfric. You've been that man before, and you'll be him again. And these men and women - they call themselves Stormcloaks because they believe in you... They're the meanest, toughest sons of bitches Skyrim has to offer. And they want this. They want this as much as you do. Perhaps they want it more."
Ulfric: "You're certain we're ready? Whiterun's army will no doubt be bolstered with Legionnares. And those walls around Whiterun are old, but they still stand."
Galmar: "We're ready. And I might be old myself, but I'll kick those damn walls down with my bare feet! - if you would only ask me to do it!"
Ulfric: "And I'm sure you could do it, too. Alright. This is it."
Galmar: "Yes!"
Ulfric: "Send the word. "A new day is dawning and the sun rises over Whiterun.""
Galmar: "Aye, and the sons of Skyrim will greet that dawn teeth and swords flashing."
Ulfric: "So it begins."

As for the Markarth incident... are we going to discuss this one again? Ulfric did not just wake up one morning and suggested to Galmar that he wanted to invade Markarth.. He was HIRED by Igmund, an Imperial supporting Jarl, to retake back the reach. If you want someone to blame for the Markarth Incident then your finger should be pointing at Igmund, not Ulfric. Ulfric didn't demand money up front for the job... he wanted free worship of Talos as payment.



No my friend That's where you're wrong. I know theirs some little stories of Ulfric that I do not like... for an example I want to know why theirs segregation policy in Windhelm. Unfortunately I do not have the ability to ask Ulfric as he wasn't programmed by Bethesda to give you an explanation.



I believe what you're seeing, well everyone who finishes the civil war story under the imperials, is an extreme common glitch that Bethesda hasn't fixed yet. We all know how lazy Bethesda is when it comes to fixing glitches and bugs. They always seems to fix those "rare" glitches that we don't see or talk about.

So while Ulfrics head hasn't been physically removed, and sent back to Cyrodiil like what Tullius said in his speech... in the story wise it has.

He forces his decision, there is no middle ground with Ulfric.

Igmund didn't hire Ulfric to slaughter those who didn't pick up weapons. 'Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips as he ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him.' Many people do try to say it doesn't fit with Ulfric's character, but this is Ulfric not very long after his escape from the Thalmor more than likely, the Thalmor broke Ulfric and they remade him, the old Ulfric probably would of been a pretty decent guy, I think he's simply lost himself in the display he tries to create for the commoners to follow him to the point he's giving grand speeches to Galmar. Now the with us are against Skyrim does fit within his character.

Galmar: "If he's not with us, he's against us."
Ulfric: "He knows that. They all know that."

Even with listening to Rikke, "Ulfric... what have you done my old friend?" He has indeed changed.

I know why his body doesn't leave is a bug, I'm saying that because of that bug I can call his head going on a spike false, things like this have been used in arguments against the Empire... you among them. That because the game doesn't show more it isn't counted as fact, there for it would become speculation. It is my way of being a tight bastard as payback for arguments you've refused because the game doesn't show more.

There are bad things on both sides, no side is perfect. For now at the present, the Empire is the lesser of two evils. Call the Empire Thalmor puppets, obeying their elven masters, the Legions are preparing for war against the Aldmeri Dominion they're not seeking an alliance with the Thalmor or to be best buddies with the Thalmor, now is not the time to break apart the Empire and cut off all the Legion reinforcements and some of their best warriors. Cyrodiil alone against two Dominion held provinces is not going to end well and if Cyrodiil falls, nothing will stop the Dominion reaching Skyrim.

You said the Empire was corrupt, you really think Skyrim under Stormcloak rule will be fair and just? Galmar gets put in charge of the new Jarls keeping them in line. I much rather a Skyrim where Galmar is not controlling half the Jarls of Skyrim as Ulfric's little enforcer, forcing their choices. At least under the Empire's rule the Nords could still do their own thing and rule their own Holds, you've traded a country where each Jarl had a say, where they maintained Nord tradition and the Pact of Chieftains, to a Tyrant who takes away the Jarls free will to voice opinion.

 

[DrunkenMage]

As for the Markarth incident... are we going to discuss this one again? Ulfric did not just wake up one morning and suggested to Galmar that he wanted to invade Markarth.. He was HIRED by Igmund, an Imperial supporting Jarl, to retake back the reach. If you want someone to blame for the Markarth Incident then your finger should be pointing at Igmund, not Ulfric. Ulfric didn't demand money up front for the job... he wanted free worship of Talos as payment.

Just because Igmund supports the Empire, doesn't make his actions the actions of the Empire. Imperial authority is not that large outside of Cyrodiil and Markarth is far from the Imperial city. I do not like many of the Nord Jarls, just because they support the Empire doesn't make the Empire bad, a serial killer that believes in god doesn't make all religion bad. Markarth is a strange city, not the type of city to mess about with, I don't support what Igmund does, I just don't believe his actions are the actions of what the Empire stands for, every man and woman makes bad choices, the actions of the few should not be used against a group made up of thousands. Not every man is honorable and perfect, the people in the Legion are no exception, yes there is an incident that puts bad light on the Legion about those soldiers who killed that girls family, but those are the actions of the few, an American soldier who commits war crimes doesn't make every soldier bad. You should never judge the actions of a few against the actions of the many. The Empire isn't perfect and of course it is prone to corruption, every government is. America has corruption in areas, does that make everyone living in America bad? No.

You just need to step back and realize that just because someone supports something, doesn't make their actions the fault of the thing they support. There are bad Jarls on both sides, while I do not blame the Empire for the actions of Jarls, I blame the Jarls.

To put it in simple terms, a man kills someone because he believes God wills it, do I blame God or the man?

 

[Rand Althor]

He forces his decision, there is no middle ground with Ulfric.

Igmund didn't hire Ulfric to slaughter those who didn't pick up weapons. 'Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips as he ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him.' Many people do try to say it doesn't fit with Ulfric's character, but this is Ulfric not very long after his escape from the Thalmor more than likely, the Thalmor broke Ulfric and they remade him, the old Ulfric probably would of been a pretty decent guy, I think he's simply lost himself in the display he tries to create for the commoners to follow him to the point he's giving grand speeches to Galmar. Now the with us are against Skyrim does fit within his character.

Galmar: "If he's not with us, he's against us."
Ulfric: "He knows that. They all know that."

Even with listening to Rikke, "Ulfric... what have you done my old friend?" He has indeed changed.

I know why his body doesn't leave is a bug, I'm saying that because of that bug I can call his head going on a spike false, things like this have been used in arguments against the Empire... you among them. That because the game doesn't show more it isn't counted as fact, there for it would become speculation. It is my way of being a tight bastard as payback for arguments you've refused because the game doesn't show more.

There are bad things on both sides, no side is perfect. For now at the present, the Empire is the lesser of two evils. Call the Empire Thalmor puppets, obeying their elven masters, the Legions are preparing for war against the Aldmeri Dominion they're not seeking an alliance with the Thalmor or to be best buddies with the Thalmor, now is not the time to break apart the Empire and cut off all the Legion reinforcements and some of their best warriors. Cyrodiil alone against two Dominion held provinces is not going to end well and if Cyrodiil falls, nothing will stop the Dominion reaching Skyrim.

You said the Empire was corrupt, you really think Skyrim under Stormcloak rule will be fair and just? Galmar gets put in charge of the new Jarls keeping them in line. I much rather a Skyrim where Galmar is not controlling half the Jarls of Skyrim as Ulfric's little enforcer, forcing their choices. At least under the Empire's rule the Nords could still do their own thing and rule their own Holds, you've traded a country where each Jarl had a say, where they maintained Nord tradition and the Pact of Chieftains, to a Tyrant who takes away the Jarls free will to voice opinion.

The last paragraph has me thinking of the extent of the Empire's rule over Skyrim. One of the loading screens notes that the Jarls are largely independent, yet swear fealty to the High King. I assume that in turn, the High King swears allegiance to the Emperor and the Empire. Therefore, there really doesn't seem to a direct link between the Empire and various Holds, which one could argue have the most direct impact on the lives of Skyrim's people. Just looking at the differences in living conditions between the Holds represents the sovereignty that each Jarl possesses over his/her land. The Empire really only seems to be interested in bigger picture issues such as security and unity. The banning of the worship of Talos, for instance, was a measure used to to ensure Thalmor neutrality and (temporary) peace among the two empires. However, as you already noted, with Ulfric as High King and Galmar in charge of running the Jarls, I doubt the Holds will be able to maintain the level of independence they currently posses under the empire.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The last paragraph has me thinking of the extent of the Empire's rule over Skyrim. One of the loading screens notes that the Jarls are largely independent, yet swear fealty to the High King. I assume that in turn, the High King swears allegiance to the Emperor and the Empire. Therefore, there really doesn't seem to a direct link between the Empire and various Holds, which one could argue have the most direct impact on the lives of Skyrim's people. Just looking at the differences in living conditions between the Holds represents the sovereignty that each Jarl possesses over his/her land. The Empire really only seems to be interested in bigger picture issues such as security and unity. The banning of the worship of Talos, for instance, was a measure used to to ensure Thalmor neutrality and (temporary) peace among the two empires. However, as you already noted, with Ulfric as High King and Galmar in charge of running the Jarls, I doubt the Holds will be able to maintain the level of independence they currently posses under the empire.

Yes, people do try to use the Jarls for reasons against the Empire, the Empire doesn't concern itself all that much with Jarls, the High King is their link to the Empire. The Elder Council run the main logistical parts of the Empire, the Emperor has the power of Veto but it is the Elder Council that handles all laws, treaties, provincial types of issues brought up etc. They are the connection to other Provinces it seems "Truth be told, most of the Council has returned to the provinces to deal with urgent local matters, but we are in regular communication. But the Inner Council still holds regular meetings" - High Chancellor Ocato