Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Sven]

Anouck covered it pretty well, so I'll just respond to this.

The only reason to fear the Thalmor is if you are a coward.

What I fear, is that the Thalmor will see our victory here and turn greater attention to our shores. - Ulfric Stormcloak

What he meant by that after word gets around of Stormcloak victory there will be a wave of tourists from Summerset comming for sightseeing and he is worried that there will not be enough mead and sweetrolls for everyone.

 

[Docta Corvina]

The fact that Ulfric expresses concern about the Thalmor immediately upon his own victory should be enough to suggest that the Thalmor are at least a considerable force. No one seems to know at present exactly how strong they are, though estimates and generalized thoughts may abound. But if it's enough for Ulfric to be genuinely worried about, no one should be dismissing them out of turn.

 

[Anouck]

Why should I? The Thalmor have nothing left, and cannot invade Cyrodiil, much less Skyrim, without risking the safety of their own borders. many imperials fail to see that and talk about the WGC as the end all-be all temporary peace it is not.

You should because you rip stuff out of context. Like I said: My post already contains the counter argument for your statement. You decided to leave the bits out that prove you wrong, which is a weak debating strategy.

My post contained facts. And one of those facts was that the Empire was outnumbered, which means the Thalmor had more men - and you were wrong when you said 'they have nothing'.

Tell me, why would the 'oh so arrogant and dictating Legion' surrender with no reason? Why would they surrender towards an enemy they can easily beat? What advantage would that give them?

I refuse to retype the post, since you obviously didn't read it. And if you did read it, I wonder how you can make such a statement after reading the arguments that prove you wrong.

??? I was simply stating that the Thalmor are not that much of a threat anymore, unless that post has evidence that they have an army of 10,000 or somewhere about there. There is no need to be afraid of the Thalmor because the Thalmor got there rear-ends handed to them, both in Cyrodiil and in Hammerfell.

Stormcloaks think the Empire had no spine when they signed the WGC - yet you say "The Thalmor are not much of a threat anymore". Do I hear you admitting here that it was actually a good decision to sign back then? Do you admit that they were too much of a threat during the Great War?

Unless that post has proof that the Thalmor still have an army and can invade whenever and are just waiting for the Empire to break it, it does not counter that argument like you think it does.

What you fail to see, is that even if the Dominion is so weak, the Empire still is too. We have to regain strength before continuing the battle and that will take a while. Also; why would so many provinces allow a weakened Dominion to dominate them? Why wouldn't they just revolt against them?

What he meant by that after word gets around of Stormcloak victory there will be a wave of tourists from Summerset comming for sightseeing and he is worried that there will not be enough mead and sweetrolls for everyone.

That is also a way of responding when you can't prove someone wrong

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

The fact that Ulfric expresses concern about the Thalmor immediately upon his own victory should be enough to suggest that the Thalmor are at least a considerable force. No one seems to know at present exactly how strong they are, though estimates and generalized thoughts may abound. But if it's enough for Ulfric to be genuinely worried about, no one should be dismissing them out of turn.

OR, he could be worried about a "surprise" attack more than numbers. Remember how Cyrodiil almost got crushed? The Thalmor caught them off-guard, by surprise. makes sense to worry about that.

 

[Sven]

Anyway what is really going to happen nobody will ever know since The game team said many times that the next Elder scrolls will have nothing to do with dragonborns or civil wars

 

[Anouck]

but that way every ingame debate will be irrelevant, since most games don't continue where the previous one stopped. In TES, that is...

 

[Docta Corvina]

The fact that Ulfric expresses concern about the Thalmor immediately upon his own victory should be enough to suggest that the Thalmor are at least a considerable force. No one seems to know at present exactly how strong they are, though estimates and generalized thoughts may abound. But if it's enough for Ulfric to be genuinely worried about, no one should be dismissing them out of turn.

OR, he could be worried about a "surprise" attack more than numbers. Remember how Cyrodiil almost got crushed? The Thalmor caught them off-guard, by surprise. makes sense to worry about that.

A "surprise" attack by the Thalmor is still an attack - so it stands to reason that the Thalmor remain a viable threat, to some presently unknown extent. What many on the Legion side advocate for is the ability to deal with that threat over time. Which is what I believe Anouck was saying in her post.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

You should because you rip stuff out of context. Like I said: My post already contains the counter argument for your statement. You decided to leave the bits out that prove you wrong, which is a weak debating strategy.

My post contained facts. And one of those facts was that the Empire was outnumbered, which means the Thalmor had more men - and you were wrong when you said 'they have nothing'.

Tell me, why would the 'oh so arrogant and dictating Legion' surrender with no reason? Why would they surrender towards an enemy they can easily beat? What advantage would that give them?

I refuse to retype the post, since you obviously didn't read it. And if you did read it, I wonder how you can make such a statement after reading the arguments that prove you wrong.

??? I was simply stating that the Thalmor are not that much of a threat anymore, unless that post has evidence that they have an army of 10,000 or somewhere about there. There is no need to be afraid of the Thalmor because the Thalmor got there rear-ends handed to them, both in Cyrodiil and in Hammerfell.

Stormcloaks think the Empire had no spine when they signed the WGC - yet you say "The Thalmor are not much of a threat anymore". Do I hear you admitting here that it was actually a good decision to sign back then? Do you admit that they were too much of a threat during the Great War?

Unless that post has proof that the Thalmor still have an army and can invade whenever and are just waiting for the Empire to break it, it does not counter that argument like you think it does.

What you fail to see, is that even if the Dominion is so weak, the Empire still is too. We have to regain strength before continuing the battle and that will take a while. Also; why would so many provinces allow a weakened Dominion to dominate them? Why wouldn't they just revolt against them?

I am saying they are not as much of a threat as the Empire makes them out to be, that if the Empire tells them to screw (Which is what I am actually saying, not going to war with the Thalmor) that the Thalmor will launch a huge invasion after them. I am more inclined to believe the history books than imperial fears right now, and history has proven they lost a huge amount of men, which will probably take them 100 years or more to rebuild.

I feel there is a disconnect between huge threat and potential threat, considering that the Thalmor NEED the Civil War so they can "prepare" for the next Great War.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Yeah, long term peace where the enemy is allowed to eliminate your men and potentially steal your resource so you have even less than what you have.

The only reason to fear the Thalmor is if you are a coward. They have NOTHING. at all. Certainly not enough men to launch a massive invasion the Empire seems to think they are capable of. The Justiciars are the only way they can crush the Empire right now.

A few men dying to keep a few thousands safe. What's your problem?
Of course it's not right, but if it wouldn't be a few who are ILLEGALLY kidnapped - this doesn't happen when the Empire is around, it's thanks to your Stormcloaks who distract the Empire from keeping their eyes on the Thalmor - it would be thousands in Cyrodiil. Skyrim and High Rock would have followed soon after. And why the heck would you want everyone to end up dead/enslaved just for your ego? Why?

They have nothing? They have what came back from Hammerfell, which wasn't that much either, but it's still an invasion force. Let's just assume for a moment that half of them returned after harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors and thirst to some degree, could be a little more, could also be a little less, there's almost no info given.
Now, the Thalmor prepared long for their First War against the Empire, at least 70 years. They had no problems (so far) keeping their social structures internally in order, that's the easy thing about national-wide racism and rule with fear, only very few ever dare to speak against you and those can get killed off quite easily. I bet there's forced recruitment going on in there as well, on the other hand, why bother forcing it? At least the hatred and disgust for other races, especially humans, seems real (can't speak for everyone of course, but in "Rising Threat" Lathenil of Sunhold mentioned that surprisingly many Altmer 'embraced this insanity'. And they got Bosmer and Khajiit at their feet, they have everything to defend themselves and just look at the geographic factors. Invading and especially conquering Elsweyr or Valenwood is impossible with little manpower, had Titus decided to strike back they would be torn to shreds either by wild animals or Bosmer arrows, take your pick.
And Khajiit don't have fertility problems by the way. Getting manpower isn't impossible for the AD.

And just like this I rewrote what I and many others wrote to others long before you were even registered in this forum.
Do your research. Use your head; not to crash into a wall, but rather use the organ inside it.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Yeah, long term peace where the enemy is allowed to eliminate your men and potentially steal your resource so you have even less than what you have.

The only reason to fear the Thalmor is if you are a coward. They have NOTHING. at all. Certainly not enough men to launch a massive invasion the Empire seems to think they are capable of. The Justiciars are the only way they can crush the Empire right now.

A few men dying to keep a few thousands safe. What's your problem?
Of course it's not right, but if it wouldn't be a few who are ILLEGALLY kidnapped - this doesn't happen when the Empire is around, it's thanks to your Stormcloaks who distract the Empire from keeping their eyes on the Thalmor - it would be thousands in Cyrodiil. Skyrim and High Rock would have followed soon after. And why the heck would you want everyone to end up dead/enslaved just for your ego? Why?

They have nothing? They have what came back from Hammerfell, which wasn't that much either, but it's still an invasion force. Let's just assume for a moment that half of them returned after harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors and thirst to some degree, could be a little more, could also be a little less, there's almost no info given.
Now, the Thalmor prepared long for their First War against the Empire, at least 70 years. They had no problems (so far) keeping their social structures internally in order, that's the easy thing about national-wide racism and rule with fear, only very few ever dare to speak against you and those can get killed off quite easily. I bet there's forced recruitment going on in there as well, on the other hand, why bother forcing it? At least the hatred and disgust for other races, especially humans, seems real (can't speak for everyone of course, but in "Rising Threat" Lathenil of Sunhold mentioned that surprisingly many Altmer 'embraced this insanity'. And they got Bosmer and Khajiit at their feet, they have everything to defend themselves and just look at the geographic factors. Invading and especially conquering Elsweyr or Valenwood is impossible with little manpower, had Titus decided to strike back they would be torn to shreds either by wild animals or Bosmer arrows, take your pick.
And Khajiit don't have fertility problems by the way. Getting manpower isn't impossible for the AD.

And just like this I rewrote what I and many others wrote to others long before you were even registered in this forum.
Do your research. Use your head; not to crash into a wall, but rather use the organ inside it.

Really? Telling me to use my head? That lost my interest in you. Tell me how many men they are "drafting", and how big their invasion force is right now. Without that, you will never prove to me that the Thalmor are a threat to the Empire on the level the Empire makes them out to be.

From what I know of the Dominion right now, they only have a defensive force that is needed to protect their territory.

 

[Sven]

Well if she was German,that would actually be pretty normal (Damn im brutal)

I'm German, and no, it most certainly isn't normal. Haven't heard of this prejudice yet but over here people prefer to get partners that suit their own age. Except for a few old men who buy their women up from the countries a few miles east, but buying someone to cook for you and entertain you at night for a better standard of living and a marriage paper can't seriously be considered a relationship.

Well you know Julius Ceaser was once a great asset of the Senate,but later they all ate a big **** from him.If you are familiar with Roman history.

Ulfric may have been forced to cooperate under absolutely no other option,youre not capable of resisting much when you are chained to a wall.

The Empire however,had every and many options to resist the White-Gold Concordat,and they would have won too,but the Emperor just could not find a spine or a set of balls within himself to do it.

Caesar was given the lead when the Roman Empire was in trouble, to explain it in a more simple way (or at least easier than giving you a lecture about Roman politics and development). Afterwards he wouldn't give the reigns back and plenty of factors lead to his assassination.
I'm surprised you'd ever use him of all Emperors as an example. It's completely different from Tamriel's Emperor being killed, Caesar by his own underlings, Mede by a paid-off organization.

And do tell me how the Emperor could have defeated the Dominion with decreased manpower and internal struggle because there was barely anyone left to keep law and order.
Why bother fighting if by the time you'd return, IF you'd ever return, there wouldn't be an Empire left to defend?

Sorry I ignored that post I was busy shutting up butthurt people(Pun right here).Anyway.............................................I think I know my Roman history,Caesar as I said WAS indeed an asset of the Senate,he was at their command,until he found out that with that army behind him that loves him and does his every bidding he can be more than just a pupper general of the Senate.And out came the legend of Caesar.Yes that got him killed in the end,but there was no reason to add all those details.

And about Germans,I as a Slavic person,got this stereotype in my head of them having really robust throat-talk voices.Maybe its the language,when I hear someone speak German it sounds like he is swearing or saying some bad plops.

 

[Tyer032392]

Yeah, long term peace where the enemy is allowed to eliminate your men and potentially steal your resource so you have even less than what you have.


The only reason to fear the Thalmor is if you are a coward. They have NOTHING. at all. Certainly not enough men to launch a massive invasion the Empire seems to think they are capable of. The Justiciars are the only way they can crush the Empire right now.

The Justiciars are not the standing army of the Thalmor, thy make up about a tenth of their entire standing force as they are not only the best of the best, but are also the most senior Thalmor as well. Their equivalent would be Adolf Hitler's Gestapo who while being few in numbers made up the bulk of the Nazi regimes officer corps who followed the doctrine that is extremely similar to that of the Thalmor.

The Imperial legions were in a sense entirely wiped out by the Thalmor as three entire legions were destroyed, and the remaining legions were either at or below half strength making an invasion and occupation of the Summerset Isle's unfavorable. Than you would have to deal with insurgent tactics that the Thalmor would use if said invasion did occur that would further cripple the Imperial Legions. And to top it all off, it was reported that with the Imperial Legions decimated, bandits were given free reign to cause further damage to Cyrodill and the surrounding lands.

 

[Tyer032392]

Another argument for the White-Gold Concordat with math and reference to Ancient Rome who the Imperial's are based off of.

Assuming that the make up of an Imperial Army is the same as that of the Roman Marian Armies and Imperial Roman Armies. The Imperial Roman Legion had 20,000 men, each divided up into ten Cohorts with the First Cohort containing the most men. A Roman field army before the Battle of Teutoburg contained three legions with 60,000 Legionaries not including the Auxiliaries who usually equaled that of a Legion. Assuming that the Imperial Legion equaled that of the Roman Legion during the Great War, than the lose of three legions was 60,000 men along with those of the Auxiliary infantry. Also, as an interesting note, during the battle for Teutoburg forest, the Romans lost three entire legions just as the Empire lost three legions during the Great War.

The remaining five legions were taken down to about 10,000 men each meaning that the Imperial army had about 50,000 men not including the Auxiliaries left as a garrison force.

Now Stormcloak supporters, tell me how the Empire was suppose to invade the Aldmeri Dominion and her allies with 50,000 plus around 25,000 Auxiliaries and have enough men to police a huge amount of land.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The fact that Ulfric expresses concern about the Thalmor immediately upon his own victory should be enough to suggest that the Thalmor are at least a considerable force. No one seems to know at present exactly how strong they are, though estimates and generalized thoughts may abound. But if it's enough for Ulfric to be genuinely worried about, no one should be dismissing them out of turn.

OR, he could be worried about a "surprise" attack more than numbers. Remember how Cyrodiil almost got crushed? The Thalmor caught them off-guard, by surprise. makes sense to worry about that.

Three entire Legions were basically wiped out during the Great War. The rest of the Legions were under half strength. Now we assume that the Empire still maintained 18 Legions (As mentioned in the Novels). So take away three, and cut it in half and all up the Thalmor wiped out enough soldiers to make up 10.5 Legions.

I'd call them a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Yeah, long term peace where the enemy is allowed to eliminate your men and potentially steal your resource so you have even less than what you have.


The only reason to fear the Thalmor is if you are a coward. They have NOTHING. at all. Certainly not enough men to launch a massive invasion the Empire seems to think they are capable of. The Justiciars are the only way they can crush the Empire right now.

The Justiciars are not the standing army of the Thalmor, thy make up about a tenth of their entire standing force as they are not only the best of the best, but are also the most senior Thalmor as well. Their equivalent would be Adolf Hitler's Gestapo who while being few in numbers made up the bulk of the Nazi regimes officer corps who followed the doctrine that is extremely similar to that of the Thalmor.

The Imperial legions were in a sense entirely wiped out by the Thalmor as three entire legions were destroyed, and the remaining legions were either at or below half strength making an invasion and occupation of the Summerset Isle's unfavorable. Than you would have to deal with insurgent tactics that the Thalmor would use if said invasion did occur that would further cripple the Imperial Legions. And to top it all off, it was reported that with the Imperial Legions decimated, bandits were given free reign to cause further damage to Cyrodill and the surrounding lands.

The guys are like the best of the best? Then why are they hunting Talos worshipers instead of warring with the Empire?

Just because Invasion is a bade idea does not mean that defying the Thalmor=Thalmor invasion. Likely the Justiciars are all that they have left for any sort of invasion force.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

The fact that Ulfric expresses concern about the Thalmor immediately upon his own victory should be enough to suggest that the Thalmor are at least a considerable force. No one seems to know at present exactly how strong they are, though estimates and generalized thoughts may abound. But if it's enough for Ulfric to be genuinely worried about, no one should be dismissing them out of turn.

OR, he could be worried about a "surprise" attack more than numbers. Remember how Cyrodiil almost got crushed? The Thalmor caught them off-guard, by surprise. makes sense to worry about that.

Three entire Legions were basically wiped out during the Great War. The rest of the Legions were under half strength. Now we assume that the Empire still maintained 18 Legions (As mentioned in the Novels). So take away three, and cut it in half and all up the Thalmor wiped out enough soldiers to make up 10.5 Legions.

I'd call them a force to be reckoned with IF they did not lose nearly their entire invasion force to both The Empire and, later, Hammerfell.

forgot something DM.

I will ask one more time, Where is the lore evidence that make the Thalmor the big bad boogey-men that the Empire has to rebuild their entire Legion before they tell the Thalmor "You can't arrest people without our say so, so shut up and QQ in you little embassy."?

 

[DrunkenMage]

IF they did not lose nearly their entire invasion force to both The Empire and, later, Hammerfell.

forgot something DM.

No. They didn't lose their forces in Hammerfell, they signed a peace treaty with Hammerfell. Their forces were allowed to withdraw.

In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated.

Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai was signed when both sides reached a stalemate. Please tell me where it says the Dominion lost their forces in Hammerfell the same as they lost them in Battle of the Red Ring?

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

forgot something DM.

No. They didn't lose their forces in Hammerfell, they signed a peace treaty with Hammerfell. Their forces were allowed to withdraw.

In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated.

Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai was signed when both sides reached a stalemate. Please tell me where it says the Dominion lost their forces in Hammerfell the same as they lost them in Battle of the Red Ring?

That still does not prove anything. They had a treaty, but the Thalmor got beaten into accepting that treaty. Ulfric Dossier makes it sound like they need the Civil War to go on, making it hard to believe they are the threat the Imperials make them out to be.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I will ask one more time, Where is the lore evidence that make the Thalmor the big bad boogey-men that the Empire has to rebuild their entire Legion before they tell the Thalmor "You can't arrest people without our say so, so shut up and QQ in you little embassy."?

They can't arrest people without the Empire's say so, they're using the Civil War to drag people off in the night where the Empire can't exactly stop them. Go to Markarth, the head of the Thalmor Justiciar's can't even arrest a single Nord without permission and evidence.

The Thalmor arrest Nords freely to send people flocking to Ulfric's cause. As seen in many Stormcloak camps when they talk to each other and say one of their cousins was taken by the Thalmor and it wasn't long until he found him/herself under Ulfric' banner.

 

[DrunkenMage]

forgot something DM.

No. They didn't lose their forces in Hammerfell, they signed a peace treaty with Hammerfell. Their forces were allowed to withdraw.

In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated.

Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai was signed when both sides reached a stalemate. Please tell me where it says the Dominion lost their forces in Hammerfell the same as they lost them in Battle of the Red Ring?

after the Redguards beat them to a stand still. Or is the book "The Great War" propaganda?

Never said it was propaganda. I said the Thalmor didn't lose all their forces. Like you somehow concluded, by comparing the Battle of the Red Ring (Empire) and the Hammerfell Resistance. One destroyed the forces, the other merely fought until a standstill.

Your point was mistaken, so correct yourself.