Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I will ask one more time, Where is the lore evidence that make the Thalmor the big bad boogey-men that the Empire has to rebuild their entire Legion before they tell the Thalmor "You can't arrest people without our say so, so shut up and QQ in you little embassy."?

They can't arrest people without the Empire's say so, they're using the Civil War to drag people off in the night where the Empire can't exactly stop them. Go to Markarth, the head of the Thalmor Justiciar's can't even arrest a single Nord without permission and evidence.

The Thalmor arrest Nords freely to send people flocking to Ulfric's cause. As seen in many Stormcloak camps when they talk to each other and say one of their cousins was taken by the Thalmor and it wasn't long until he found him/herself under Ulfric' banner.

but WHERE is the Evidence that proves that the Empire cant force the Thalmor to be spectators and just sit in their embassy in anger without forcing a war?

There is not, so the Thalmor cannot be that big of a threat. Yellow scare my friend.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

No. They didn't lose their forces in Hammerfell, they signed a peace treaty with Hammerfell. Their forces were allowed to withdraw.

In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated.

Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai was signed when both sides reached a stalemate. Please tell me where it says the Dominion lost their forces in Hammerfell the same as they lost them in Battle of the Red Ring?

after the Redguards beat them to a stand still. Or is the book "The Great War" propaganda?

Never said it was propaganda. I said the Thalmor didn't lose all their forces. Like you somehow concluded, by comparing the Battle of the Red Ring (Empire) and the Hammerfell Resistance. One destroyed the forces, the other merely fought until a standstill.

Your point was mistaken, so correct yourself.

your right, I was wrong on the number they lost. But that still leaves the issue of them being the major threat that the Imperials make them out to be, which is little more than a yellow scare, as they likely lost more than they can rebuild in a short time. they would at least need 100 years to rebuild their forces to 1/2 of their previous strength.

 

[DrunkenMage]

but WHERE is the Evidence that proves that the Empire cant force the Thalmor to be spectators and just sit in their embassy in anger without forcing a war?

There is not, so the Thalmor cannot be that big of a threat. Yellow scare my friend.

The Thalmor are enforcing the treaty. It would cause a diplomatic incident if the Thalmor were forced to stay in the embassy while the Empire struggles to 'enforce' the White-Gold Concordat.

The treaty allows the Thalmor to move around. Though they aren't allowed to simply arrest whoever they wanted, not until Ulfric's uprising which caused the Holds to lose guards and patrols and Imperial Legionnaires to go into dealing with open rebellion.

"Even if we had a prisoner by that name, the only way he'd be released is by order of the Imperial Legion." - Thalmor, Northwatch Keep Guard.

"He's old, respected, and I know for a fact that he worships Talos in his home. But the Jarl has been hesitant to call for his arrest. I want you to break in to his home and find evidence." - Ondolemar

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

but WHERE is the Evidence that proves that the Empire cant force the Thalmor to be spectators and just sit in their embassy in anger without forcing a war?

There is not, so the Thalmor cannot be that big of a threat. Yellow scare my friend.

The Thalmor are enforcing the treaty. It would cause a diplomatic incident if the Thalmor were forced to stay in the embassy while the Empire struggles to 'enforce' the White-Gold Concordat.

The treaty allows the Thalmor to move around. Though they aren't allowed to simply arrest whoever they wanted, not until Ulfric's uprising which caused the Holds to lose guards and patrols and Imperial Legionnaires to go into dealing with open rebellion.

"Even if we had a prisoner by that name, the only way he'd be released is by order of the Imperial Legion." - Thalmor, Northwatch Keep Guard.

"He's old, respected, and I know for a fact that he worships Talos in his home. But the Jarl has been hesitant to call for his arrest. I want you to break in to his home and find evidence." - Ondolemar

if they have to get permission from the Empire, why would they Empire simply say "sure" thanks to the WGC? Why can't the Empire take more Authority? Unless the the Empire was under a yellow scare and are tricked into thinking that the Empire has any authority when the Thalmor have all the Authority. They started the Civil War after all, to be able to rebuild in peace.

make no mistake, the WGC was just a tool so that the Thalmor can prepare for the next Great War and pull another surprise attack on the Imperial leadership. No matter how prepared you are, the leaders have to be prepared and watching the Southern border, not focusing on some Thalmor tool of a Civil War.

 

[DrunkenMage]

your right, I was wrong on the number they lost. But that still leaves the issue of them being the major threat that the Imperials make them out to be, which is little more than a yellow scare, as they likely lost more than they can rebuild in a short time. they would at least need 100 years to rebuild their forces to 1/2 of their previous strength.

The Thalmor are a cloak and dagger foe, they aren't something to be underestimated. They've been slowly trying to undermine the Empire for the last 150 years. Even having 'nests' in Cyrodiil for a very long time.

They are patient, as evident in the events leading up to the Great War. The threat the Thalmor pose is something many have underestimated and they all ended up dead. The Blades underestimated the Thalmor, they were effectively wiped out, the Empire underestimated them, even many Altmer underestimated them and they ended up dead.

It isn't simply about the Thalmor's army. Invading Valenwood and Elsweyr is one of the toughest things to even do. You have be extra careful in Valenwood, else you may trigger a 'Wild Hunt' and have your entire army torn to pieces by the Bosmer who have transformed into blood thirsty creatures.

The Khajiit will defend their homeland, they are skilled fighters. Not to mention the Altmeri Navy is considered invincible. They are one of the best naval forces in TES history. They are the most skilled at naval warfare. Even if you invaded and secured Valenwood and Elsweyr, unless you cut the head off the snake it'll bite you later on. To destroy the threat, you need to take Summerset Isle. Now invading a land that is poorly mapped, not many records on it and you have the best navy in Tamriel blocking you.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

your right, I was wrong on the number they lost. But that still leaves the issue of them being the major threat that the Imperials make them out to be, which is little more than a yellow scare, as they likely lost more than they can rebuild in a short time. they would at least need 100 years to rebuild their forces to 1/2 of their previous strength.

The Thalmor are a cloak and dagger foe, they aren't something to be underestimated. They've been slowly trying to undermine the Empire for the last 150 years. Even having 'nests' in Cyrodiil for a very long time.

They are patient, as evident in the events leading up to the Great War. The threat the Thalmor pose is something many have underestimated and they all ended up dead. The Blades underestimated the Thalmor, they were effectively wiped out, the Empire underestimated them, even many Altmer underestimated them and they ended up dead.

It isn't simply about the Thalmor's army. Invading Valenwood and Elsweyr is one of the toughest things to even do. You have be extra careful in Valenwood, else you may trigger a 'Wild Hunt' and have your entire army torn to pieces by the Bosmer who have transformed into blood thirsty creatures.

The Khajiit will defend their homeland, they are skilled fighters. Not to mention the Altmeri Navy is considered invincible. They are one of the best naval forces in TES history. They are the most skilled at naval warfare. Even if you invaded and secured Valenwood and Elsweyr, unless you cut the head off the snake it'll bite you later on. To destroy the threat, you need to take Summerset Isle. Now invading a land that is poorly mapped, not many records on it and you have the best navy in Tamriel blocking you.

I NEVER SAID A THING ABOUT INVASION ON THE EMPIRE SIDE! I simply was talking about the Empire taking more authority, and the lack of lore evidence about an army large enough to back up any "Thalmor Hot Air" makes it hard to believe that they are a threat at this time, or that big of a threat at least.

 

[Pronged Pickle]

I believe he's asking what makes the Thalmor a threat in modern day Tamriel if the Empire is so prepped up for a second Great War.

Well, if the Empire has been building forces, I doubt the Thalmor have been sitting in Summerset picking their noses.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I NEVER SAID A THING ABOUT INVASION ON THE EMPIRE SIDE! I simply was talking about the Empire taking more authority, and the lack of lore evidence about an army large enough to back up any "Thalmor Hot Air" makes it hard to believe that they are a threat at this time, or that big of a threat at least.

Well the Empire has to invade the Thalmor to defeat them. There isn't any lore evidence mentioning the current size of the Empire's army. We know they're both staring each other on the border, so it must be pretty even presently. Otherwise the Empire would take a far more offensive posture.

So you're going in a circle, and I could say what makes you believe the Empire is in a position to be making threats.

I merely speculate that the Empire could perhaps win if war broke out, but the Empire isn't really in the most perfect of positions. Especially since the Emperor gets assassinated.

So you tell me, what position does the Empire hold to be take more authority?

 

[DrunkenMage]

I believe he's asking what makes the Thalmor a threat in modern day Tamriel if the Empire is so prepped up for a second Great War.

Well, if the Empire has been building forces, I doubt the Thalmor have been sitting in Summerset picking their noses.

People just fail to remember it isn't just the Thalmor. The Empire has an army to their east that aren't exactly friendly (Morrowind's House Redoran's army). They're considered a major threat too. Not to mention Black Marsh which the current political party had wiped out everything that had been 'Imperialised' so their army is a threat to the south too.

Thalmor are just one piece of the pie.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I believe he's asking what makes the Thalmor a threat in modern day Tamriel if the Empire is so prepped up for a second Great War.

Well, if the Empire has been building forces, I doubt the Thalmor have been sitting in Summerset picking their noses.

even so, that does not mean that the Empire cannot tell the thalmor that they can "Take over the arrests." or "Can we do things the legal way?" to make things better for both sides, unless the Thalmor have an iron grip on the Empire's legal system now.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I believe he's asking what makes the Thalmor a threat in modern day Tamriel if the Empire is so prepped up for a second Great War.

Well, if the Empire has been building forces, I doubt the Thalmor have been sitting in Summerset picking their noses.

even so, that does not mean that the Empire cannot tell the thalmor that they can "Take over the arrests." or "Can we do things the legal way?" to make things better for both sides, unless the Thalmor have an iron grip on the Empire's legal system now.

The Empire did handle it, they did it very poorly and the Thalmor couldn't do anything about it. Then the Civil War broke out and the Thalmor started their large inquisition. Tullius is busy dealing with open rebellion, legionnaires and hold guards are being put into battle. Tullius can't go "We'll take over" while half of Skyrim are in open defiance of the White-Gold Concordat.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I believe he's asking what makes the Thalmor a threat in modern day Tamriel if the Empire is so prepped up for a second Great War.

Well, if the Empire has been building forces, I doubt the Thalmor have been sitting in Summerset picking their noses.

even so, that does not mean that the Empire cannot tell the thalmor that they can "Take over the arrests." or "Can we do things the legal way?" to make things better for both sides, unless the Thalmor have an iron grip on the Empire's legal system now.

The Empire did handle it, they did it very poorly and the Thalmor couldn't do anything about it. Then the Markarth and the Thalmor started their large inquisition. Tullius is busy dealing with open rebellion the Thalmor started to distract the Empire. Tullius can't go "We'll take over" while half of Skyrim are in open defiance of the White-Gold Concordat, which was foolishly signed just for the sake of dominion-ruled peace.

What? The fact that the Civil War is a Thalmor plot is not good enough to make Imperials realize that the Thalmor are more afraid of the The Empire, and that the Empire is more of a threat to the Dominion, is not enough?

 

[DrunkenMage]

What? The fact that the Civil War is a Thalmor plot is not good enough to make Imperials realize that the Thalmor are more afraid of the The Empire, and that the Empire is more of a threat to the Dominion, is not enough?

Knowing something while you're still dealing with a Civil War doesn't change the fact you're still dealing with a Civil War. I'm sure it makes perfect sense in your mind "We'll just piss off the Thalmor and go to war, cause even though we're fighting a Civil war and dealing with that it is okay, cause Jeremy says so."

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

What? The fact that the Civil War is a Thalmor plot is not good enough to make Imperials realize that the Thalmor are more afraid of the The Empire, and that the Empire is more of a threat to the Dominion, is not enough?

Knowing something while you're still dealing with a Civil War doesn't change the fact you're still dealing with a Civil War. I'm sure it makes perfect sense in your mind "We'll just piss off the Thalmor and go to war, cause even though we're fighting a Civil war and dealing with that it is okay, cause Jeremy says so."

I never said they had to let the Civil War go, just take on small detail over to "lighten the burdens of the Thalmor" then ignore it.

Quit getting all butthurt because I fail to see the Thalmor as anything other than a boogeyman that the children are afraid of.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I never said they had to let the Civil War go, just take on small detail over to "lighten the burdens of the Thalmor" then ignore it.

Quit getting all butthurt because I fail to see the Thalmor as anything other than a boogeyman that the children are afraid of.

The Thalmor would know if they were simply ignoring it. Then they would simply go back to doing what they're doing, which is to send supporters flocking to Ulfric.

I'm not getting butthurt or upset. Not my fault you choose to ignore lore regarding the Thalmor, nor do I even care what you want to believe. All information regarding the Thalmor of the Fourth Era are a deadly force not to be underestimated. If ignoring that, makes your little RP better, go for it.

But don't debate in here about what you RP and argue with others about how they're wrong because you RP this, especially with no evidence to support your claim.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I never said they had to let the Civil War go, just take on small detail over to "lighten the burdens of the Thalmor" then ignore it.

Quit getting all butthurt because I fail to see the Thalmor as anything other than a boogeyman that the children are afraid of.

The Thalmor would know if they were simply ignoring it. Then they would simply go back to doing what they're doing, which is to send supporters flocking to Ulfric.

I'm not getting butthurt or upset. Not my fault you choose to ignore lore regarding the Thalmor, nor do I even care what you want to believe. All information regarding the Thalmor of the Fourth Era are a deadly force not to be underestimated. If ignoring that, makes your little RP better, go for it.

But don't debate in here about what you RP and argue with others about how they're wrong because you RP this, especially with no evidence to support your claim.

I AM NOT USING RP!!!!!!!!

I am also not ignoring lore. The Thalmor started the Civil War, by sending men to Uflric through the use of the White-Gold Concordant, to keep the empire from being fully prepared for the next war. What part of that is ignoring lore? The part where I continually ask where the lore evidence for the Thalmor being a major threat, when there is no lore evidence to support that topic in your favor?

 

[DrunkenMage]

I AM NOT USING RP!!!!!!!!

I am also not ignoring lore. The Thalmor started the Civil War, by sending men to Uflric through the use of the White-Gold Concordant, to keep the empire from being fully prepared for the next war. What part of that is ignoring lore? The part where I continually ask where the lore evidence for the Thalmor being a major threat, when there is no lore evidence to support that topic in your favor?

The fact Ulfric and the Empire consider the Thalmor a threat? The fact that in the novels the Thalmor were considered a threat?

No. You are using your RP, you have for quite sometime. No evidence to support it in my favor...

"We underestimated the Thalmor, and they destroyed us." - Delphine

"They smashed us with ease during the Great War." - Delphine

"There's no worse enemy to humankind in Tamriel. The Empire barely survived the last war. The Thalmor don't intend to lose the next one." - Delphine

While the Empire is content to secure inconsequential corners of its vast holdings, the threat of the Thalmor continues to rise. Not since Potentate Ocato has anyone in the Empire listened to me. I beseech any and all citizens of this renowned Empire to heed my words! The Thalmor must be stopped, before it is too late. - Rising Threat

"Elenwen is a formidable woman. She lacks for neither cunning nor ambition." - General Tullius

"What I fear, is that the Thalmor will see our victory here and turn greater attention to our shores." - Ulfric Stormcloak

"Unless the Empire stands together, the Thalmor will destroy us all." - Hadvar

Only by signing the peace treaty known as the White-Gold Concordat was the Empire able to survive the onslaught of the high elven Aldmeri Dominion, and thus end the Great War. - Skyrim Loading Screen

"If there's any hope of a long term victory against the Dominion, it's in the Empire. The rebels are only inflaming the tension and weakening the Empire by distracting it from its ultimate aim." - Rikke

So now I run. Like a hare from the hound, I run. Always moving, rarely resting, never sleeping. But the Thalmor dog my every move. Where will I go? How will I escape their grasp? I honestly don't know. The only thing I now understand for certain is this: if the agents of the Aldmeri Dominion cannot have your soul, then they will take your very life.
My name is Hadrik Oaken-Heart, and I am a proud Nord of Skyrim. Remember me. For soon I will be dead. - Flight from the Thalmor

"And I've seen the face of evil. It was in the air above Sentinel on the Night of Green Fire." - Legate Fasendil

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I AM NOT USING RP!!!!!!!!

I am also not ignoring lore. The Thalmor started the Civil War, by sending men to Uflric through the use of the White-Gold Concordant, to keep the empire from being fully prepared for the next war. What part of that is ignoring lore? The part where I continually ask where the lore evidence for the Thalmor being a major threat, when there is no lore evidence to support that topic in your favor?

The fact Ulfric and the Empire consider the Thalmor a threat? The fact that in the novels the Thalmor were considered a threat?

No. You are using your RP, you have for quite sometime. No evidence to support it in my favor...

"We underestimated the Thalmor, and they destroyed us." - Delphine

"They smashed us with ease during the Great War." - Delphine

"There's no worse enemy to humankind in Tamriel. The Empire barely survived the last war. The Thalmor don't intend to lose the next one." - Delphine

While the Empire is content to secure inconsequential corners of its vast holdings, the threat of the Thalmor continues to rise. Not since Potentate Ocato has anyone in the Empire listened to me. I beseech any and all citizens of this renowned Empire to heed my words! The Thalmor must be stopped, before it is too late. - Rising Threat

"Elenwen is a formidable woman. She lacks for neither cunning nor ambition." - General Tullius

"What I fear, is that the Thalmor will see our victory here and turn greater attention to our shores." - Ulfric Stormcloak

"Unless the Empire stands together, the Thalmor will destroy us all." - Hadvar

Only by signing the peace treaty known as the White-Gold Concordat was the Empire able to survive the onslaught of the high elven Aldmeri Dominion, and thus end the Great War. - Skyrim Loading Screen

"If there's any hope of a long term victory against the Dominion, it's in the Empire. The rebels are only inflaming the tension and weakening the Empire by distracting it from its ultimate aim." - Rikke

So now I run. Like a hare from the hound, I run. Always moving, rarely resting, never sleeping. But the Thalmor dog my every move. Where will I go? How will I escape their grasp? I honestly don't know. The only thing I now understand for certain is this: if the agents of the Aldmeri Dominion cannot have your soul, then they will take your very life.
My name is Hadrik Oaken-Heart, and I am a proud Nord of Skyrim. Remember me. For soon I will be dead. - Flight from the Thalmor

"And I've seen the face of evil. It was in the air above Sentinel on the Night of Green Fire." - Legate Fasendil

They may be a "threat" but dialogue can mean anything, like with Corvina.

I am talking about real lore, history, books, anything other than what people talk about. What lore is there for any number of soldiers in the Dominion right now?

 

[Docta Corvina]

Man, what people "talk about" is a very large part of how we know anything of what's currently happening in 4E 201. If you've got to have precise numbers before you believe the Thalmor are an understood and canonical threat, then I think you're going to be disappointed.

That may well be part of Bethesda's approach, but you can't dismiss what DrunkenMage has quoted. It's every bit as relevant to the conversation. In your earlier posts, you were saying that the war didn't matter because RP makes anything and any perspective possible. Then why spend time quibbling about precise numbers?

 

[DrunkenMage]

They may be a "threat" but dialogue can mean anything, like with Corvina.

I am talking about real lore, history, books, anything other than what people talk about. What lore is there for any number of soldiers in the Dominion right now?

Dialogue is real lore. If you're going to dismiss dialogue, then you're dismissing about three quarters of TES lore.

I provided two books also. Flight from the Thalmor and Rising Threat.

Bethesda rarely deals with numbers, the only mention to numbers is thousands of Nords dying in the Great War. So that would also mean thousands of Imperials, Bretons, Redguards etc.

If you want to dismiss a large part of lore, then you can do that. But don't use that as an argument in a debate. It doesn't work like that, you have gone on many times about what you can RP.